Heller Royal Louis and Gladiateur

These are two more of those early Heller sailing ship kits. They share many attributes with the Sirene and Phenix, which we discussed in another thread.

It's been a long, long time since I've looked at either, but I think Celestino has it right: there was a ship named Royal Louis but apparently none named Gladiateur during the period in question. (I may be mistaken about that; maybe Michel, or somebody else with a better knowledge of the French navy than I have, can correct me.)

I bought the Royal Louis when it appeared initially in the U.S., in a Minicraft box. I recall taking a good look at it, concluding that I'd wasted my money, and giving up on it. As I remember, it was a typical early Heller ship kit: nice, attractive "carved" ornamentation applied to a basic shape that just didn't ring true. I think Celestino is probably correct in his implication that something's wrong with the cross section of the hull. I didn't get far enough with the project to bother trying to track down a set of plans, but I seem to recall finding a couple of photos of a contemporary model of the ship and concluding that the "tumble home" as rendered by Heller was pretty bizarre.

It would be easy to dismiss this subject cynically and warn potential modelers off from that first generation of Heller kits. With a few exceptions (the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria weren't bad, if you could get past the fact that the first two shared the same hull), they didn't really meet any reasonable definition of the phrase "scale model." Unfortunately, though, the range of really decent plastic sailing ship kits is pretty small - and the number currently available is even smaller. I sympathize completely with anybody who wants to find something usable in every kit he can find. But turning one of those old Heller kits into a serious scale model would be just about as big a project as working from scratch.

Here is a link to a finished Royal Louis

http://www.old.modelarstwo.org.pl/szkutnicze/zestaw/heller/royal_louis/

and

http://www.old.modelarstwo.org.pl/szkutnicze/galeria/duvnjak/royal_louis/

looks nice. Exaggerated tumblehome is not really noticeable in these images.

Celestino - You're right. I think, though, that the angles from which the photos were taken helped the kit a great deal. My recollection - which is about thirty years old now, and should be taken with a huge grain of salt - is that the cross-sections of this kit were pretty unbelievable. But I could quite conceivably have it mixed up with another Heller product.

Before making any serious judgment of this kit I'd really want to see some plans, or at least a good contemporary model, of the actual ship. It really isn't fair to base an evaluation on thirty-year-old memory.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jtilley Celestino - You're right. I think, though, that the angles from which the photos were taken helped the kit a great deal. My recollection - which is about thirty years old now, and should be taken with a huge grain of salt - is that the cross-sections of this kit were pretty unbelievable. But I could quite conceivably have it mixed up with another Heller product. Before making any serious judgment of this kit I'd really want to see some plans, or at least a good contemporary model, of the actual ship. It really isn't fair to base an evaluation on thirty-year-old memory.

Please Sir, I was not disputing your recollection. I have the RL and G and the hull does not appear quite correct for a Napoleonic Era warship but I do not know regarding man-of-war design of earlier periods. The photos do benefit the ship. I am sure a prow-on image would have a different aspect. I deeply appreciate your comments. I am considering whether to sell or build the kits referenced thus far(Sirene, Phenix, Gladiateur, Royal Louis) I do not wish to invest a great deal of effort in unhistorical models.

Thanks for your comments.

Celestino - I didn't think you were disputing my recollection (though there's good reason to dispute it).

Frankly, if you're interested in serious scale ship modeling my suggestion is to sell those old Heller kits. It probably would be possible to make them into nice models, but it would take more effort than I, for one, would be willing to put into such a project. If I were you, and I were thinking in terms of a seventeenth-century warship model, I'd do one of three things. 1. Order the Airfix Wasa; 2. Scour e-bay and all other sources for an Airfix Prince or St. Louis; or 3. If you can afford it and have the space, tackle the Heller La Reale. That one has the potential to be turned into a masterpiece.

Good luck. It's a great hobby.

Celestino,
your questions are interesting, so I ask the AAMM what could be the collaboration between Heller and the AAMM and I ask your quesitons in the "marine et modelisme d'arsenal" forum. Unfortunately, there is no (more) official Heller forum.
Michel

Looking at a drawing of the Royal Louis orginal configeration in 1690.From Gino Galuppini book Warships Of The World ( An illustrated Encyclopedia) The Heller kit appear more like hat than the 1780 version after the modifcations.And if memory serves me correct Heller based the model off a model of the Royal Louis thats in a museum in Paris and for the life of me I can't remember which one.
Rod

Wow, really interesting, indeed!
Members of the AAMM deny any relationship with Heller !
There was a Sirene, but no Gladiateur, read the topic posted in the "marine et modelisme d'arsenal" forum, I hope, you can translate it. Note that Mr Rouanne and Mr Grandvilliers are honorable members of the AAMM, Mr Delacroix is the administrator of the forum, he writes monographs (le gros ventre, l'aurore, la chaloupe armée,...)
http://forum.aceboard.net/5500-553-26836-0-Heller-AAMM.htm
Michel

Very interesting indeed! My French is wretched, but that post from Pierre seems pretty definitive.

I'm curious about the appearance of those letters "AAMM" on the parts in Heller kits. I don't recall seeing them on any of the examples I've bought. (My memory could well be defective there, though; it's been years since I've bought a Heller kit.) I suppose we should consider the possibility that "AAMM" is an abbreviation for something else, but that certainly seems unlikely. Is Heller using this organization's initials without permission? Or has the current management of the AAMM repudiated a decision made by some previous administration? I imagine the particular samples Celestino is citing are fairly old; I don't think those kits have been in production for quite a few years. Maybe we're talking about an issue that died a long time ago.

At any rate, I certainly understand why the AAMM doesn't endorse Heller's products. The company's record, in terms of scale accuracy, is just too inconsistent.

I've often thought it would be useful for institutions like museums and modeling organizations to offer endorsements to model kits. I know of a few such examples. (Bluejacket sells the "Official Kit of the U.S.S. Constitution Museum," and I believe the Wasa Museum has endorsed the kits by Billing and Airfix - and declined to endorse the one from Corel.) If the AAMM did offer its seal of approval to certain kits - an individual basis, rather than endorsing everything a particular manufacturer makes - I'd certainly welcome it. For that matter, if the Nautical Research Guild or the IPMS were to set up some sort of standard of historical accuracy, and encourage the manufacturers to put the NRG or IPMS logo on kits that came up to that standard, modelers could avoid wasting some money. I doubt, though, that the manufacturers would go along with such an idea.

I'm trying to build Heller's "The Gladiatuer".

Unfortunately, I'm serch through the web but I can't find any pictures (except cover from box that I already have).

Can anybody give me some link with fotos or maybe (even better) if somebody have done this ship is it possible to send me photos on my e-mail address:

btalair@yahoo.co.uk

Thanks, Bertran

http://www.old.modelarstwo.org.pl/szkutnicze/zaglowce/galeria.html

 

http://www.old.modelarstwo.org.pl/szkutnicze/zestaw/heller/gladiatour/index.html

Celestino

Thanks for the web site's .I've been enjoying myself looking at all the photo's.Great site's

Thanks Rod

Thank you, Celestino :)

The site is great. There is a lot of gallery; it's very useful.

But, for Gladiateur... on that site I found only one picture of Gladiateur. :( I have found (at some topics of this forum) that there is a members that have built this ship. Can anybody tell me about his experience? Can we see some photos?

Thanks, Bertran