Got my first ship model : Heller 1:150 Pamir

Splelunko
First you take your head and hold it six inch from a wall and start banging.You are now and offical sailing ship builder.

Warppage can be taken out by putting the hull in warm water than working it to the shape you need.Don't leave it in very long or it will get worse. If you got small areas use filler and sand down.

If remember right the Pamir masts come in two parts I would put brass rod inside to help it with strength.If you can toss the rigging line from Heller and get some from like Model Expo.If you got other question just ask the group their great.Good luck
Rod

Hello Rod,

Thanks for the quick reply.

Well, I did what you said with the water and the hull. It worked. Thanks.

I have been looking over the building sheets ( in french ) . Since there are diagrams I can figure it most out. Until tomorrow that is. HEHEHEHE

Incuded in the kit is a shroud making rig. Ummmmm. I don't get it. Even though this part of the building comes later, I can already see a problem. How exactly am I to work this gizmo? Anybody?

I was going to get some implants on my forehead Devil style. I just saved some money for more models. Got to love it.


THanks,


Robert

I bought that kit many years ago, when it was new. My recollection is that, in terms of detail and accuracy, it was pretty good. The biggest problem was an unavoidable one. Those latter-day sailing ships had a good deal of complicated deck machinery (Jarvis brace winches, for instance) that's tough to translate into plastic moldings. But if I recall correctly, Heller did a reasonable job with most of them. I think I also recall that - like most Heller kits - it doesn't have deck camber. (Scarcely any sailing ships have flat decks. The deck beams normally curve up slightly in the middle, so water runs off into the scuppers.) But on such a small scale the latter goof isn't really conspicuous.

The other problem I seem to recall (beware - all this is based on memories that are at least 25 years old) was a typical silly Hellerism - the sort of goof made by highly skilled artisans who just don't quite understand how a ship works. It concerned the yards. The Pamir, like virtually all other big sailing ships of that period, had jackstays - heavy steel rods that ran through eyebolts on top of the yards. (In fact, I suspect she had double jackstays - one on top of each yard and one about 45 degrees forward of it. The head of the sail was lashed to the forward jackstay, and the after one served as a hand grip for men working on the yard.) Heller, to its credit, made at least an attempt to represent the jackstay eyebolts. Molding them as actual eyebolts integrally with the yards would have been impossible, so they got represented as tiny rectangular blocks with steps on their tops. To represent the jackstays themselves, the modeler was supposed to glue pieces of wire onto the steps. Not a bad idea - but the designer put the "eyebolts" on the fronts of the yards instead of on top. Those little blocks really need to be shaved off. On 1/100 scale nobody will get too upset if the jackstays aren't there at all.

Regarding the "loom" or whatever they call it - my recommendation is to throw it out. There's no denying that ratlines are difficult to rig on 1/150 scale - especially on such a huge vessel. My suggestion is to leave the ratlines off.

In order to tackle a model like this you really need some help in the form of books. I recommend two in particular: The Way of a Ship, by Alan Villiers, and Masting and Rigging: The Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier, by Harold Underhill. The Underhill book will be particularly useful in sorting out the mysteries of the rigging. If this is your first sailing ship model, I don't recommend attempting more than the basic rigging. (A really complete rigging job for a ship like that, on such a small scale, would, for most of us part-time amateurs, take years.) The Underhill book will clarify what the most important lines are, and which ones are better omitted. The Villiers book is a fine, readable treatise on how latter-day sailing merchant vessels worked - from the economics of the trade to global sailing conditions to how such an enormous ship was handled. Villiers was a veteran sailor-turned-writer who wrote a whole shelf full of books on such subjects. They're all extremely informative - and great fun. I'm not sure whether either of these books is in print at the moment, but used copies are available via the web at fairly reasonable prices.

Good luck. It's a great hobby.

Prof. Tilley,

Thank you for your comments. I will look into the books and also consider the rigging issue.

To Millard or Prof. Tilley: For the painting, the bottom of the hull is red. What color did you use to tone that down a bit?

As for the decking: Around the border of the decking is a smoot area (No decking) I am assuming that this would be part of the steel hull on which the planking sat. What color would this be?

I got the hull together: A bit of manipulating on my part. Now I am looking at the first part of the decking. I will need to paint these. I do not know how to drybrush and at this scale, I don't know it it will work. I may go with a black undercoat and then 1 or 2 teak colors on top. Than to get a bit more detail I will use some steelwool. Sound OK with you all? Other ideas?

THe LHS here in Taiwan are terrible. I will need to buy some thread (Black) or I may use a method I think Prof Tilley mentioned. Using wire. Perhaps that think copper wire in electrical cords. Than paint them black. To my eyes, the difference in the thread thickness of the 2 spools inthe kit (White) is almost beyond my ability to see. HEHEHEHE

I love the plastic sails. SO realistic. What a great idea. On the serious side, I will shange these out. I plan of furling the sails anyway.

Looking over the plans yet again, I can see a future where sewing will be a big part of this process. How does one get detail such as cloth on the sails. What about the seams?

I know, get some books. Exactly what I will do.

Thanks again,

Robert

The bottom of the hull would be painted with the same sort of anti-fouling paint that was - and still is - used on warships and merchant ships. (We're dealing with a 20th-century ship here.) Several of the hobby paint manufacturers make "hull reds" that should work fine. If your hobby shop caters more to model railroaders, "tuscan red" is a good alternative.

I'm not really familiar with the Pamir, but I think there are two likely possibilities for those smooth areas around the edges of the decks. (They're called waterways, incidentally.) One is that they're painted steel - probably the same color (white?) as the insides of the bulwarks. The other is that they're cement. That's actually pretty likely. In ships of that period the wood deck planking was laid on top of the steel hull structure in such a way that a gap, the depth of the planking, was left around the edges. To keep water and miscellaneous junk from accumulating there, the gap would be filled with a layer of cement. (The Cutty Sark has this feature. Her waterways originally were bare iron, but - according to George Campbell's plans - they were "cemented" sometime during her career.)

There are quite a few approaches to the problem of making the deck planking look like wood. To be honest I haven't done it for years (my last several models have had wood decks), but it can be done quite effectively. The first priority should be to start with a good basic color - a fairly light, greyish beige. (A deck that's had the sun shining on it, salt water splashing over it, and lots of enthusiastic young German merchant marine cadets stomping on it for a while doesn't have much of a brown cast to it.) If the planking seams are countersunk (they are, if I remember right), consider running a wash of dark grey (not black, please; caulking is no more black than the asphalt on a street) into the grooves. I like to pick out the "wood grain" molding with dry brushing. I haven't used the steel wool trick myself, but I know some modelers swear by it.

One tip that's relevant at this point: give some thought to how you're going to mount the finished model. I don't remember what sort of stand comes with the kit, but it probably doesn't amount to much. If you want to mount the ship on pedestals or something of that sort, the time to figure it out is now - before the inside of the hull becomes inaccessible. In any case, it's a good idea to make some provision for fastening the hull down firmly to a board while you're working on it. A hull that wobbles around on a rickety plastic stand is an invitation to disaster.

I agree about the "sails" that came with the kit: they're excellent candidates for the trash can. The vac-formed sail has been around almost as long as the plastic sailing ship kit. I really wish nobody had ever thought of the idea. Admittedly vac-formed sails in kits do vary quite a bit in quality (Revell's best efforts could be made to look pretty good, I suspect, as long as the viewer couldn't see them from behind), but most serious modelers I know throw them out before leaving the hobby shop.

We had a good discussion of sails in the Forum fairly recently. The thread is headed "Real cloth sails?" I moved it to p. 1 a minute ago; it should appear on the topic list just below this one. Bottom line: on 1/150 scale furled sails, in my opinion, are an excellent solution. I think the technique I described in that other post would work fine on a 1/150 Pamir (though it would take a long time; she had a hl of a lot of sails). And don't worry about such things as seams on them; on this scale they'd be invisible.

There's no getting around the fact that the rigging of a latter-day sailing bark like the Pamir is extremely complex. Particularly in the case of a first project, I don't recommend trying to reproduce anywhere near all of it on 1/150 scale. (The model is pretty big, but that's actually an extremely small scale for a sailing ship model. The Pamir was an enormous ship.) The books I suggested earlier will sort it all out - probably in more detail than you want to know. It would be a good idea to study some photos (plenty of them are available) of ships from the period. See which of the lines are visible from a distance, and concentrate on those. The thread provided with the kit probably is second-rate stuff; throwing it out along with the sails and the "loom" is a good idea.

Different modelers have different views on what makes good rigging line. (I don't think I'd recommend wire on this scale - except perhaps for lines like footropes, which need to hang slack.) My preference is silk, but it's hard to find these days. Model Expo ( modelexpoonline.com ) sells, under the Model Shipways label, some stuff it calls "cotton-poly mix" that seems pretty good; it has a nice, workable texture, is spun up in a way that makes it look pretty much like real rope, and comes in a wide range of sizes. You want two colors: black and the greyish-tan they call "manila," or "hemp." (At the moment the Model Expo website is down. The company is located in Florida. 'Nuff said. I imagine it'll be up and running again within the next few days.) The more different sizes of thread you can work into the rigging, the better. Even if you simplify it, it will look much, much better if there are lots of sizes. Bear in mind two basic rules of ship model rigging: (1) If in doubt regarding size, err on the small side. (2) If in doubt regarding color, err on the dark side.

You're right: there's a great deal to be learned about these fascinating, beautiful old ships. And the kit you picked frankly isn't one I would have recommended for starters. (For one thing, the rigging involves a tremendous amount of repetition.) On the other hand, it's one of the better sailing ship kits on the market - and the finished product should be extremely impressive. Good luck.

Robert
Try putting a little black paint in the red to tone it down abit.I agree with Jtilley throw that shroud jig away.The best is to rig the shrouds right on the ship.i can't remember if the Pamier had deadeyes or a turnbuckle type system.If deadeyes replace the kits with wood ones from Model Expo.You were talking about wire,that's what I use alot for ratlines.I use very thin copper winding wire from electic motors.You can bended it to have a sag in it and attach it with CA glue.Then paint black.Hope this helps.
Rod

As always, these topics are extremely interesting to read - in part due to the extraordinary knowledge of JTilley; thanks for taking so much time to write all this down! Like many others (I hope), I have learned a LOT since I found out that forum. It is people like you who really keep this hobby alive, by drawing in old newbies who (naively) thought they'd never glue another model again after they turn in their 30s! Boy was I wrong!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Spelunko Since I live in Taiwan at the moment, it is difficult to find any sail ships (tall ships?). hence, I took what I could get.

Can you get your models to be shipped to you by foreign model stores? You can find tons of them on the web. I personnally bought kits from the US, UK, France, Poland, Russia, all of them by uninsured surface mail: never lost one in the mail, never had problems with customs. I live in Switzerland, so I was curious to know the situation in Taiwan given the proximity of China and the diplomatic isolation...

Regards & good luck with your kit!

The Pamir's standing rigging was set up with rigging screws - not deadeyes. I'm pretty sure there wasn't a deadeye in the ship. Those big old German grain ships were the ultimate in sailing ship high tech - for the 1930s.

I don't remember how Heller handled the problem of the rigging screws (which are, in effect, oversized turnbuckles). The kit may have no such parts. If not, a good way to represent them might be to slip precut lengths of some kind of tubing over the lines in the appropriate places. (Maybe one could pull the insulation off some fine electrical wire, cut some appropriate lengths, and thread the line through them with a needle.) On 1/150 scale, just a little "fattening" of the line would give an appropriate effect.

No need to worry about deadeyes for this model. But you may want to buy some aftermarket rigging blocks. I like the cast britannia metal ones from Bluejacket ( www.bluejacketinc.com). On 1/150 scale the smallest sizes that company offers (and believe me they're small - far smaller than any available wood ones) would be about right for the larger blocks on the real ship. For the smaller ones - well, a knot in a piece of thread, carefully trimmed and painted, can look remarkably like a block to people with normal vision at a normal viewing distance.

I don't have a photo of the Pamir in front of me, but I strongly suspect her ratlines (at least the ones on the lower shrouds) were iron or steel rods. If so, they wouldn't sag between the shrouds. (That's one of the most noticeable things about a photo of a latter-day sailing ship: the ratlines are stiff and straight.) Fine wire would be a good material to represent them. I'd think twice about tackling the ratlines on that model, though - especially if I were a newcomer. A little simple arithmetic will show why. On 1/150 scale they'd be about .003" in diameter, and spaced about .08" apart. Figure thirty or forty of them on one side of one lower mast. Multiply by eight (four masts, port and starboard) - and then start thinking about the topmast shrouds. We are alloted but little time on the Orb....

I fully agree with one of the earlier Forum participants who suggested that it's better to leave some details off. If the shrouds are rigged neatly and to scale, they'll give a good impression of how the rigging works. I'd suggest leaving the Great Ratline Problem for the next model - and picking a larger scale for that one.

It's tough to build sailing ship models without a reasonably reliable supplier.
I have no idea what quality of mail order service firms like Model Expo and Bluejacket can offer in Taiwan. I imagine they'd give you a straight answer if you asked.
Good luck.

Thanks all,

There we have it. All problems solved.

Great ideas. Am now getting ready to buy some paints. THe above has helped a lot. While again contemplating this model, THe thought struck me that detailing is going to be a big issue. How much do I do at the beginning? COntinue throughout the building process? etc. Since my skills will improve, I am sure the detail level will change. I would like to avoid that but........ As mentioned, This is a learning model. I am happy it is a tad bit difficult. Cold weather setting in, Lots to learn, and an interesting topic.

By the way, what is a rudder?







Joking

Thanks,

Robert

Hello and welcome to our insanity, or lack of.

I have been working on my Pamir on and off for about 15 years. One major problem with this kit is with that warped hull. You cannot get the proper camber with the hull bending in the opposite radius. Also, in time, it may pop apart if not glued and supported properly.

A few things I did with mine was first, I set up a building jig out of a 1x6 board and screwed jig blocks every couple of inches to match to contour of the hull. I then test fitted the hull to my jig. I then drilled slots into both the base and two 1/2x1/2 blocks that were cut the length of the keel. These blocks will be attached to the base with screws and then be used to clamp the bottom of the hull together C-Clamps.

Then I got my materials ready. What I used was 30 minute epoxy to glue the hull halves together and got some lead bars from a fishing supply shop, shaved them to match the contour of the inside of the hull, to use as counter weight.

Next do the warm water method to make the hull pliable, add the epoxy, fit the halves together, clamp into the jig, and epoxy the lead into the hull to act as counter weight. I kept a blowdryer on the plastic to keep it warm and pliable. For the top of the hull, put in the deck sections and place rubber bands around the hull, Tighten everything up and hope for the best.

As for rigging this model, I too recommend the Underhill books. They are very extensive and show how each rig functions as well as to how it is placed.

I really think you have chosen a pretty challenging kit. Heller kits, due to their poor instructions, warped and oversized/undersized moldings, and issues with scale and authenticity, require quite a bit of shipbuilding experience in order to get a quality finished model. However, they are still my favorite sailing ship manufacturer and with patience, you should end up with a very nice model.



Scott

Bump...I just got the big 1/150 Heller Preussen, this answers some of the Qs I have. :-)

9 year bump

Yeah I know, but info on these kits is few and far between. Bumping it allows me to find it easier.

Update, I got lucky on Fleabay and picked up the Pamir from Heller as well, 1/150 scale, dang these are big boxes, but the kits look manageable enough. Luckily I have a spot where I think I can accomodate both eventually. This aint my first rodeo, I did alot of ship models (galleons mostly) years ago. Already have all three Underhill books and Villiers Way of a Ship, and a lot of other sources and a bunch of Model Shipways stuff stored away. Plan to sell some other stuff, a Lindburg Sea Witch and a Imai Cutty Sark (never liked the Lindburg) Both of these are brand new kits, so no thirty + year old plastic to deal with. 

Once I start I'll start a dedicated thread

One comment.  The Imai 1/125 Cutty Sark is an excellent kit.  In my opinion it's the best Cutty Sark kit on the market - plastic, wood, or otherwise.  I suspect there are quite a few modelers out there who'd like to have one.  But if I were you, frankly, I'd keep it - and any other Imai sailing ships you may have.

I'll be following your WIP thread on the Pruessen as I have it in my stash.

I'm very, very interested in how you end up  A) Attaching the yards to the masts and B) what sizes and types of blocks you end up using. Also any problems and their solutions that you come across along the way as well as whether or not you alter/add/change any deck furniture such as adding more detailed Jarvis bracing-winches, etc. will be of interest and, I'm sure, of help to me if and when I ever get around to building her.

Mike

BashMonkey

Once I start I'll start a dedicated thread

Yeah the Imai is nice. I may keep the Cutty and sell my Soleil Royal instead.

Blocks will be tricky. Model Shipways smallest are 3/32". Thats really big even for these ships. In the past I have used plastic beads with success as blocks I'll have to experiment at that stage.

BashMonkey

Yeah the Imai is nice. I may keep the Cutty and sell my Soleil Royal instead.

i will bet John Tilley is smiling.....

A very wise choice IMO.

He is indeed!

I love the Ertl/Imai stuff, I also have NIB the 1/100 Spanish Galleon, 1/60 Santa Maria, and built up 1/60 Catalan ship which I would like to re-rig, and the big Golden Hind built up in storage.