Wood decks on the Revell 1/96 Constitution

All the comments I've made so far in this thread have been based on memory of a project I finished at least 25 years ago - and I don't remember when was the last time I looked at a Revell Constitution outside its box.  I know for sure that I applied the basswood planks over the plastic deck parts, and I think shaving those "pads" off the bottom of the deck parts lowered the deck so the 1/32"-thick planks brought it level with the waterways.  But I could well be mistaken - and it's entirely possible (though it hardly seems likely) that the thickness of the deck sections is different in more recent moldings of the kit.  I certainly don't recommend that anybody working on such a project now be guided by my recollections of something I did 25 years ago. 

I'm also pretty firm in my recollection that I used Bluejacket britannia metal deadeyes on that old model.  And that made a world of difference to the appearance of the finished product.  I think I also made a set of scale parrels for it, using plastic sheet and glass beads.  (The big Revell kits are better in that respect than the Heller ones.  The Revell designers at least understood that yards need to be fastened to masts.)  I honestly don't remember whether I replaced all the plastic blocks or not.  My budget was such that I may not have; I certainly would if (gawd forbid) I were doing it now.  The Revell blocks actually aren't so bad, if one interprets them as having rope strops.  A thoroughly, authentically-rigged model of a frigate should, of course, have far more sizes of blocks than the two included in the kit - and the smallest ones should be considerably smaller than the smallest included in the kit. 

As for LEDs, I probably used some primitive, layman's terminology when descrbing them earlier in this thread.  To me, "burning out" is what happens when a light bulb (e.g., a traditional "grain of wheat" bulb, like the one I built into my Revell Constitution, and three out of the four full-sized lightbulbs that are in the light fixture in the room where I'm typing this) gets old and tired.  When too high a voltage gets applied to a light bulb or an LED, it, in my vocabulary, doesn't burn out; it BLOWS out -  a far more spectacular and memorable phenomenon.  On my Young America I wired up the LEDs in series with little resistors (which came in the same package), and I've never run them on anything but a 9-volt dry cell battery.  As I understand it, an LED won't burn out unless it's subjected to some sort of abuse.  But I think it's always a good idea to make any sort of electrical gadget accessible in the finished model.

When it comes to making decks, my gut reaction is to avoid trying to shape any sheet of any material - styrene, plywood, or anything else - into a compound curve - which is what the surface of a sailing warship's deck is.  (It curves up at the bow and stern due to the ship's sheer, and up at the centerline due to the camber.)  In most cases the easiest way to handle the problem is the way the shipwrights did:  make the deck out of individual planks, laid over individual beams with the camber cut into them.  That's what I did on my little model of H.M.S. Bounty, which is also based on a Revell plastic kit:  http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/JohnTilleyBounty/index.html .  I made a series of deck beams out of basswood and pinned them down over a copy of the deck plan, with the forward and after beams shimmed up to match the sheer.  Then I glued the planks down to the beams.  I don't remember exactly how I attached the beams to the inside of the plastic hull, but I don't recall that it was particularly difficult.  The Revell 1/96 Constitution  is at least twice as big, and needs to have two planked decks.  But I imagine some similar technique would work.

Another approach, similar to what I did with my Young America, is to make a "sub-deck" out of wider strips (say 1/2" wide and 1/32" thick) of basswood.  Such strips are narrow enough to work with conviently without being forced into compound curves.  The joints in the sub-deck don't need to be particularly neat, and their location doesn't make any difference.  Once you have a smooth wood surface to work with, laying the planks is easy - and the layer of adhesive between the planks and the sub-deck will actually make the finished structure stonger.

The question of humidity, vis-a-vis plastic and wood, is interesting.  It seems like it could reasonably be expected to be a problem.  All I can say is that I've got two models, the Bounty and the Hancock, that have extensive amounts of styrene and various kinds of wood in them (along with metal, silk thread, brass, copper, britannia metal, and probably several other substances that I've forgotten).  I finished the Bounty in (I think) 1979, and the Hancock in either 1983 or 1984.  They've been through three changes of residence and experienced some pretty extreme humidity changes (Ohio, Tidewater Virginia, and North Carolina are like that) - and the Hancock's hull, which is hollowed-out-solid basswood with styrene exterior planking, made a trip across the Atlantic and back by air in a suitcase.  So far neither of them shows any sign of damage due to environmental changes.  (Frankly I'm surprised that none of the rigging has gone slack, but it hasn't.)  Again, though, it's worth noting that these are pretty small models.  A 3-foot long one might experience things differently. 

Great thread fellas. Burning out LEDs with a variable power pack, sounds like an average day on the model railroad!

What if the deck was replaced with a single piece of styrene that was scribed, and made to camber with shaped beams on the underside? That'd produce a nice view from the gun ports, plus no humidity problems relative to the otherwise plastic hull?

Just my

Greg:

The Smithsonian plans call for a moulded frame thickness (inside to outside dimensions) at the height of the gundeck of roughly 9 1/2". Then at the underside of the spar deck, the frame is about 6" thick inside to outside. Right in the way of the gunport it would be about 9" at the sill and perhaps about 7" at the lintel. That does not count the outer and innder planking.

Russ

I realize now, after reading this thread again, that I mixed the bulwarks with the gunports in my previous post.  I am planning to thicken both areas of the kit, but have only done the gunports so far.  Thus the intent of my original question was concerning the gunport thickness.  Sorry for the confusion. 

I measured the thickness of my gunports and they are just a hair short of 1/8".   

Thanks

Greg 

This is an incredible thread!  I have used individual planks for the decking on all of my Revell 1/96 scale ships, including the Constitution, with good results.  I also like the idea of replacing the vacuformed sails with either rolled tissue soaked with water-down white glue or sail cloth, the plastic deadeyes with metal cotter pins, and commercial wooden blocks.  I have also added bulwark planking to thicken those on Constitution.  Anyway, this is a terrific thread!

Bill Morrison

I just checked the bulwark's thickness on the Smithsonian plans and I was waaay off. The total thickness, including outer and inner planking with frame, was about 10 1/2" just under the caprail.

At 1/96 scale that is just shy of 1/8" all told. I think that if the bulwarks were thickened out to about 3/32"-7/64" they would look fine at scale. Of course, I'd need to see it in front of me to see what my eye thought of it, but it should work okay.

Russ

John:

I have measured the thickness of the decks in my kit and they are about 1/16" thick. Maybe a tad shy of that, but close to that. That I can see, they have no real camber, or at least not any that's noticeable. I'll measure the crossection drawing from the Smithsonian plans and see what the camber is there.

I can make the hatch coamings with a slight camber in them even if the deck does not have any. That's no problem. If I use a 1/32" thick plywood subdeck I can strip plank with 1/32" thick holly or basswood for the deck. Then add the hatch coamings over that. Or I can shave the pins down a bit and use a slightly thicker plywood subdeck. The joints in the plywood subdeck are not especially important so long as the pieces are well secured to the mounting pins. The strip planking will cover all of the plywood afterwards.

I am also thinking of adding in faux framing and ceiling on the inside of the gundecks and the spardeck bulwarks. The thickness of that faux framing and ceiling can be taken directly from the Smithsonian plans I think. Those bulwarks would probably be about 6-9" thick total I reckon, but I'll have to to check on that. Whatever it is, on the model it will need to be slightly underdone to keep the thing from looking over scale.

Russ

Prof. Tilley,

I've been working on this kit on and off for several years.  Haven't really made much progress on it in that time.  But recently I decided to thicken the bulwarks on the kit.  Basically what I've done is doubled the thickness of the bulwarks with sheet styrene.  After doing this it still looks like it's maybe too thin.  It was a bit of a pain adding the extra thickness since I had to trim out all of the gun ports on the sheet styrene. 

So, Prof. do you think doubling the thickness would be a good scale representation of the thickness or should I add one more layer to make the bulwarks three times as thick as the kit bulwarks.

Thanks,

Greg 

My recollection (which is at least thirty years old; beware) is that the plastic deck components are about 1/32" thick, with the little pads next to the mounting pins adding another 1/32" - so the top surface of the deck is indeed about 1/16" above the pins projecting from the hull halves.  As I remember, the decks in my old kit did have camber in them - which, as you say, is primarily visible in the form of the hatch coamings.  But I wouldn't be the least surprised if the decks components of more recently molded kits are flat - or even warped in the wrong direction.

If it's done right, the deck camber on a  model of a ship like this isn't obvious on a casual glance.  But if the top of a hatch coaming, or a skylight, or some other prominent deck fitting is perfectly flat, that is noticeable.  (That's one of the things the designers at Heller never figured out.  The top of the beautifully molded, clear plastic skylight on the Heller 1/100 Victory is flat, and comparison with a photo of the real thing makes the mistake instantly obvious.) 

The general (with plenty of exceptions) rule of thumb in ship design of that period was that for every foot of the ship's maximum beam, camber raised the deck at the centerline by 1/4".  That ratio doesn't vary with scale.  The Constitution's maximum beam is 43'6", so the deck at the centerline should be about 10 7/8" higher than at the side.  On 1/96 scale that's about 7/64".  Glancing at a rough cross-section of the Constitution, I think that figure may be a little on the large side - but the deck camber certainly wouldn't be any more than that.

I agree completely that retaining the pins on the inside of the hull halves would be an excellent idea.  If I were building that model again (gawd forbid), I think my approach would be to cut some basswood beams to the proper camber and glue them to the underside of the plastic parts, thereby forcing the plastic into the proper curvature.  (As I understand it, recent moldings of the kit are in a relatively soft plastic; if so, getting it to take and keep the curvature would actually be easier than it was on my old one.)  Then I'd plank over the plastic - and this time I'd use holly for that purpose, rather than basswood.  I think that would work pretty well.  Having figured that out, I'd start working on the other big problem with the Revell kit:  the fact that the bulwarks are too thin. 

The chances of my doing any of this - or building another Constitution in any other form - in the limited time left to me on the Orb are, however, just about zero.  I'll be most interested in any solutions to the problem that anybody else comes up with.

John:

Okay, I see your point about the camber. I was quite willing to simply let that go since the plastic decks did not have any camber either. I think it might take a very experienced eye to catch the lack of camber, especially on the gundeck, at this scale. On the spar deck, it would be more obvious, but I wonder how many casual viewers would see it. But, I can see the point and the camber should be there. I'll have to ponder that a bit and see what I can come up with.

My entire aim here is to begin with the plastic hull and then, beginning with the decks, use wood (and metal) as much as possible. Thus the plastic decks are not part of the plan at all. I might use some of the plastic gun carriages for the lower decks and perhaps keep the deadeye/lanyard assemblies, but past that, I would want to use wood and metal wherever possible.

I could try and shave the mounting pins down a bit to get a little more room for adding a wood deck. I can see where that would work. The plastic deck pieces are roughly 1/16" thick so if I used a plywood subdeck with strip planking over that, it would all have to equal 1/16" thickness unless I was able to shave a bit off those mounting pins to make room for some thicker material.

I suppose one could fit actual wood deck beams rather than use the plywood subdeck.  If I wanted to do that, though, I would have to shave off the mounting pins altogether and fit a beam shelf for each deck, upon which the deck beams would fastened. That would require a good deal of measuring though and the process might lead to some irrevocable mistakes in fitting the decks. Having those mounting pins there is mighty handy for fitting a new deck. I'd like to take advantage of them if possible. Once the deck is fitted, replacing the hatch coamings and other deck fixtures with wood components is quite easy. The main thing will be to get the deck at the proper height so the guns fit in the ports properly.

Any other thoughts are welcomed. Thanks.

Russ

I guess that would work, Russ - provided that you took great pains over the layout of the joints between the pieces of plywood.  I've always had reservations about the use of plywood as a decking material, for the simple reason that the deck of a sailing warship is a compound curve; forcing plywood into a compound curve isn't impossible, but it seems unnecessarily difficult.  But never having tried it, I can't say for certain just how difficult.

On the basis of personal experience I can only testify that the method I described earlier in this thread - lowering the plastic deck components by shaving the little pads off their bottoms - works.  Or at least it did about thirty years ago, when I built mine.  The only places where the thickness of the plastic is visible are the edges of hatchways, and at those points it can be concealed easily enough by the construction of the coamings.  One big "if," though.  I can remember having some slight trouble on mine because the plastic deck components were warped a little.  (The kit was ten or twelve years old even then.)  I've read reports from other Forum members that more recent moldings of it have really serious problems with warping; getting those parts to assume the proper camber might be a major problem.  If I remember right, I glued fairly hefty pieces of basswood under the joints to reinforce them; I'd strongle recommend either wood or plastic sheet (which wasn't a common product in those days) for that purpose.  If the warpage turned out to be too severe I'd resort to a wood "sub-deck," but I'd be inclined to try the plastic one first.

I know this thread has been laying around for a while, but I was searching around for a discussion about wood decks on that 1/96 scale Revell Constitution and I had an idea. I have built this kit a couple of times, the last time being about 20 years ago and I have always thought about bashing it with some wood components, especially those three piece decks.

Here is an idea I am working on. What if someone wanted to leave those mounting pins in the inside of the hull and use several sheets of plywood for a deck, much like the kit's three piece decks? The plywood could be very thin and it could be CA'd right onto those mounting pins. Then one could strip plank the decks, add the hatch coamings etc and finish the deck entirely in wood. The joints in the plywood sections are hidden by the deck planking and the deck can now be the same (or very close to the same) thickness as those plastic deck pieces. Also, by using those plastic deck pieces as templates for the new wood decks, one can maintain the same alignment for the masts.

Now, I would like someone to read this over (realizing its only a very broad sketch of a plan of attack) and shoot some holes in this idea. Where is the pitfall here? What crucial element am I overlooking? I have a few other ideas for bashing this kit, but I'd like to hear from someone about this idea first. Thanks for your time.

Russ 

"On my current long-term project, an American merchantman on 1/96 scale, I've mounted some LEDs in the hold where they can be seen through the main hatch.  This time (though as I understand it LEDs really don't burn out) I took the precaution of making them accessible through a removable deckhouse. "

jtilly, this is going to be a piece of art when you're done ...

All these are good ideas - including the wood decks.  (That one is far from the most time-consuming, or trickiest, on the list.  It actually isn't particularly difficult, and doesn't take more than a few evenings.)  I'm not among those who think it's essential to replace the topmasts and topgallant masts with wood; I found that, on such a big model, the plastic parts are plenty strong enough to take the strain of the rigging if it's set up properly.  (Caveat:  I built my Constitution a long time ago.  I've heard that Revell has been using a considerably softer grade of styrene recently.  But wood spars bend too.)

The plastic "sails" and "preformed ratlines" need to go into the wastebasket, preferably before leaving the hobby shop.  As I remember, the molded deadeye/lanyard assemblies in this kit are better than those in some of Revell's other offerings.  I think they come in inboard and outboard halves, with clearly separated "ropes."  (The Cutty Sark's deadeye lanyards are somewhat indistinct blobs, with the lanyards running into each other.)  There's no denying, though, that individual deadeyes and genuine thread lanyards make a huge improvement in any model.  I personally find it something of a challenge to rig a long row of deadeyes and lanyards, all in line with each other and at the same tension, but the job gets easier with practice.

Quite a few companies make aftermarket blocks and deadeyes.  I'm a fan of the Bluejacket cast britannia metal ones.  They come in a variety of sizes, and they're much more realistically proportioned than the wood ones from the European manufacturers.  They aren't cheap, unfortunately (Bluejacket blocks and deadeyes for a model like this will cost you considerably more than the stripwood for the deck planks), and they do require some cleaning up with a file and a drill.  But in my opinion the results are worth the trouble and the money.

Replacing the plastic eyebolts is an excellent idea - unless you enjoy the sound of breaking plastic.  Don't waste money on manufactured ones.  They're ludicrously easy to make out of brass or copper wire.  (If you use brass, heat it over a candle flame first to soften it.)  A set of twist drills, #60 through #80, will provide mandrels for making all the eyebolts you'll ever need on 1/96 scale.  Loop a piece of wire around the drill bit and twist the ends into a pigtail.  Drill a hole in the deck (or bulwark, or whatever), put a drop of CA adhesive on the pigtail, shove it into the hole, and you're done.  Bluejacket also sells some "blackener" chemicals - one for brass and copper, one for britannia metal.  Dipping the eyebolts in "Brass Black" will give them a nice, iron-like color. 

Another gang of parts that would be good candidates for replacement are the hammock netting stanchions.  The ones in the kit are a little crude.  There were several varieties of such fittings, but on that scale I suspect a series of U-shaped pieces of wire would satisfy most observers.

Your idea of putting lights in the captain's cabin really takes me back. I had the same idea - long before LEDs came on the market.  So I built a little light bulb into mine, having been assured by the owner of the hobby shop where I worked that "grain of wheat bulbs don't burn out."  This one did - long before I finished the model.

On my current long-term project, an American merchantman on 1/96 scale, I've mounted some LEDs in the hold where they can be seen through the main hatch.  This time (though as I understand it LEDs really don't burn out) I took the precaution of making them accessible through a removable deckhouse.  The model is mounted on a pair of turned pedestals, with steel bolts running through them.  The bolts thread into brass nuts, which are firmly secured inside the hull.  The wires from the LEDs (or rather from the necessary resistors, which are wired in series with the LEDs) are soldered to the nuts.  When the model's finished, I'll run wires from the heads of the bolts (under the baseboard of the case) to a switch and a 9-volt battery.  This way I don't have to worry about the rest of the curcuitry till the model's done.

Hope all this helps a little.  Good luck.

Having built (and actually finished, even, more than once) a few of the 1/96 Revell kits, I know I have opinions.

Now, building a wood deck is good--it's certainly better than the plastic one.

I'll second the recommendation for holly for decking.  Recall that these decks were scrubbed with salt water & "holystoned" with stone blocks.  The decks should be a pale color.

Now, the kit has some things that ought to be addressed.  How much to address is a very personal thing.  Like the bulwarks at the gunports are all way too thin, not even the thickness of hull planking to scale.  That can get to some work--which ties into your proposed deck work, adding waterways, the skirting, & such between each & every gunport.  At that point you are close to your idea #1, and things like puttign the deck camber in are "might as well as" decisions.  Things like the fact that the deck boards alongside the hatch combings are about 2" thicker (there's a note about that on one of the Constitution refit notes sites). 

Now, all of the sudden, there's a pile of work to do, and 80% will only be known or seen by you (the eternal dilemma for scale modelers, n'est pas? <g>)

So, yes, I've taken the short cut of just using the plastic decks, cussin' the joints, and went for "finihing" the kit rather than modeling the prototype.  Otherwise, there's not much left after correcting the decks, bulwarks, masts (oh, my, the masts . . . ) 

I also have to admit to being spoiled by the Mammoli wooden kit, too.  It's not perfect, but builds so nicely.  It's not for the faint of heart or lean of pocketbook, either.  Neither is my "runner up" choice, the Model Shipways kit (which is plank on bulkhead, not the old 5/32" scale solid monster).

Can it be done?  Yes.  Should you enjoy yourself?  Absolutely.  Will you look back at the finished kit and "kick" yourself a bit for using the kit deadeyes & ratlines?  Dunno--I do <g>.  The Bluejacket catalog oft tempts me to change the rigging of the remaining built version <g> . . .

I am presently building a R/C model for my grandson. There are three decks which need constructiing; one is of mahogany and the other two are a light colored wood ( I believe it to be obechi, if I deciphered the instructions correctly). I tried JTilley's technique and must say I am totally pleased with the results. I can't wait to put the stain on. My wife on her daily inspection first said "How did you do that". She, too, thought that they looked realistic. I would add one further instruction; make sure you sand all edges before applying the pencil. This will give a more consistent "caulk" finish. I used the very thinnest superglue I had (it's the consistency of water). I experienced no problems with the glue, just minor cleanup. This cleanup didn't add any appreciable time to the construction since sanding needs to be done before application of the stain.anyway.

Andy

I did this to a Revell Constitution many years ago.  It worked quite well, and actually was pretty easy - probably not much more difficult or time-consuming than eradicating those awful joints between the plastic deck sections.

My recollection (beware:  this was a long time ago) is that both the main deck and the spar deck are supported by hefty pins sticking out from the insides of the hull halves.  The pins, I think, are in pairs.  On the underside of the deck section, in line with the gaps between these horizontal pins, are a series of vertical pins, each of them mounted on a rectangular pad that (fortunately) is just about 1/32" thick.  The pads sit on the pins that project from the hull. 

Shave off the pads and the pins from the undersides of the decks, and the decks drop by 1/32".  Thank you, Revell.  (The Cutty Sark is tougher:  no pads.)

I don't recommend either the glued-up decking sheets or the scribed ones.  Neither is as effective as individual planks - and for a model this big you'd have to splice the sheets together at the ends anyway.  You'd also have to cut extremely precise holes in them to fit around the hatches and other pieces of deck furniture.  The easiest way to handle the problem is the best-looking:  make the deck from individual planks.

The best wood for the purpose probably is holly, but it's hard to find.  Maple is a good second choice, but you'd probably have to mill the planks to size yourself.  Decent hobby shops (and mail-order firms that cater to ship and/or railroad modelers) sell strip basswood, which is pretty good stuff if you're careful with it.  

I don't remember the width of the actual planks; my guess is about 9", which translates into 3/32" on the scale.  The necessary bundle of 3/32" x 22" stripwood will set you back a few sheckles, but I suspect you'll conclude the results are worth it.

You probably already have some books about the laying of prototype deck planking.  (If not, do another post and I'll recommend some.)  The arrangement of the butt joints is crucial.  If  you get really ambitious you can have lots of fun reproducing the "joggling" of the margin planks at the bow and the stern.  I confess I didn't do that when I built my Constitution, but I'd probably take a shot at it nowadays.

The typical plank is about 24' long - that is, 3" on the scale.  I recommend chopping up a considerable number of planks (a Northwest Shortlines "Chopper" is ideal, but any sort of jig that gives a nice, 90-degree cut will do fine), so you can work in batches of a dozen or two. 

I've seen lots of tricks for representing the caulking between the planks, but to my eye the most convincing one is the easiest.  Before laying each plank, run a fairly soft (say, #2) pencil around all four edges of it.  The result will be that each plank is surrounded by a thin, dark grey line that will resist any sanding, scraping, or other brutalization you inflict on the finished deck. 

I glued my planks down with old-fashioned, tube-type Revell plastic cement.  It worked fine.  (That particular model is no more, but I've got a couple of others on which I used that adhesive for wood-to-plastic joints.  They've lasted more than 20 years.)  Alas, Revell cement seems to be extinct, but I imagine the Testor's variety would work.  The idea is that it soaks into the wood a little, and dissolves the surface of the plastic "under-deck."

Once the planks have been prepared, you'll be surprised at how fast the actual laying of them goes.  You probably can do the spar deck in two or three hours.

The hatch coamings that are cast in with the plastic decks will now be 1/32" too low.  You can fix that by gluing strips of wood on top of them.  (Pay some attention to the corners.  Miter joints are verboten in traditional wood ship construction.  If I remember right, Revell did a nice job of scribing the "ship joints" at the corners of the hatch coamings.)

Initially you may be a little disappointed in the appearance of the result, but have faith.  Let the glue dry thoroughly, then work over the deck with extremely fine sandpaper. 

To get a good, deck-like color I recommend a thin coat of "Driftwood" wood stain, sold by Olympic Paints.  Maybe mix it with a little "Golden Oak."  When the stain is dry, give the whole deck a coat of white shellac, dilluted almost beyond recognition with denatured alcohol.  Shellac is great stuff for this sort of thing.  It settles the slightly fuzzy grain of the basswood, and provides good protection agains future paint dribbles.

I've probably forgotten some aspects of this job, but that's the gist of it.  As I recall, the whole process of planking the decks took less than a week of evenings.  But it changed the whole character of the model.

Hope all this helps a little.  Good luck.