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Lindberg"s "Jolly Roger" a real pirate ship!

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 5, 2005 10:00 PM

Mr. Williams,

Many thanks indeed for your kind remarks.  It isn't nearly as hard as it looks - but I admit it does take some time and practice.

I guess the object you're referring to is the capstan.  It is, in essence, a big, man-powered winch.  In use, the sailors plug a series of stiff wood bars called capstan bars (which can be seen stowed on the deck nearby) into the square holes near the top).  The rope that needs to be heaved upon is wound around the barrel of the capstan, and the sailors walk around it, pushing on the bars.  The ship's fiddler might sit on top of the capstan playing sea shanties as they pushed.

This particular ship (like lots of other frigates) has two capstans mounted on the same shaft.  The one in the picture sits on the quarterdeck; the lower capstan is on the maindeck directly underneath.  When two or three guys pushed on each capstan bar, the resulting force was pretty formidable.

The model is set up as though one of the anchor cables has just been hove in.  On the maindeck in a couple of the shots you can just make out the heavy cable leading out from under the forecastle deck and down one of the hatches into the cable locker.  Since wrapping the anchor cable itself around the capstan would be impractical, a long, endless line called a "messenger" is wound around the capstan and lashed to the anchor cable with short lines called "nippers."  Heaving on the capstan hove on the messenger, which in turn brought the anchor cable in.  As it came in, a couple of the ship's boys would run alongside the moving messenger, untying the aftermost nipper and clapping on a new one forward, where a fresh length of cable had just come in through the hawsepipe.  It's thought that this evolution may be the origin of the term "little nipper."

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by RALPH G WILLIAMS on Monday, December 5, 2005 2:50 PM

DR. TILLEY,

Very beautiful model of the Hancock. One day I hope to have half your  ability and knowledge of ship building and history.

One question on picture 5 of the Hancock.     What is the Red cylinder-like object next to the grating?

Thanks for your time.

                                        rg williams

  • Member since
    April 2003
Posted by nfafan on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:58 PM
 jtilley wrote:

<SNIP!>

Even if a pirate captain somehow managed to acquire such an expensive vessel without paying for it, the maintenance expenses would be staggering.  He'd have to capture a vast number of extremely valuable prizes on a regular basis just to maintain the ship and pay those 200 men enough to make the enterprise worth their while.  In modern terms, that would be the equivalent of somebody stealing a Perry-class frigate and using it to conduct criminal activities at his own expense.  Not impossible, I suppose, but highly unlikely.  And the notion of a ship-of-the-line, like the Wappen von Hamburg, serving as a pirate ship is, I'm afraid, pretty ridiculous.

 

The CEO of Oracle has a converted frigate I believe. With a basketball court as I understand it. Whatever it was, supposedly the world's largest "yacht".

Perhaps if we ask some of the many companies he has "acquired", and the Oracle customers paying thru their noses, they might find that he is indeed a pyrate!

Very informative post!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 6:25 PM

"Hancock" was a popular name for American (i.e., "rebel" or "Patriot") vessels during the American Revolution.  The first one to bear the name (to my knowledge) was indeed a schooner - one of several hired temporarily by George Washington during the siege of Boston in 1775.  I don't have a complete list of ships that bore the name, but I suspect there were several in the state navies - and probably some merchantmen and privateers were named Hancock as well.

The Hancock that took part in the battle with Sir George Collier's squadron was a 32-gun frigate, built under the authority of the Continental Congress (as authorized in late 1775) at Newburyport, Massachusetts.  She was launched early in July, 1776 (quite possibly on July 4).  Shortly after the action we've been talking about, she was captured by Commodore Collier's flagship, H.M.S. Rainbow, of 44 guns.  The British took her into the Royal Navy, renaming her H.M.S. Iris.  She spent most of the next four years on convoy duty between Europe and North America.  At some point during her travels some British naval architects did a survey of her and - to the great good fortune of modern model builders - made an "Admiralty draught" of her.  In March of 1781 she took part in Adm. Marriot Arbuthnot''s indecisive action off Cape Henry with the French squadron under the Comte des Touches. 

A few months later the Iris was part of Adm. Samuel Graves's squadron when he fought the tactically indecisive (but strategically vital) Battle of the Chesapeake.  Graves's failure to defeat the Comte de Grasse at that action sealed the fate of the Earl Cornwallis's army at Yorktown.  After the battle Graves sent the Iris and another of his frigates, the Richmond, into the mouth of the Chesapeake to reconnoiter.  The two British ships were in the process of cutting loose the anchor buoys de Grasse had left behind, when the French fleet returned and captured both of them.  The Iris, ex-Hancock, thus had the unusual distinction of serving under three flags during the American Revolution.  She lasted until 1797, by which time she was serving as a powder hulk at the French Mediterranean port of Toulon.  When Adm. Lord Hood evacuated Toulon the old Iris, ex-Hancock, was blown up.

We've moved pretty far afield from shiver-me-timbers and Jolly Rogers.  I hope, though, that I may be given for being a little sensitive about matters involving the frigate Hancock.  I spent about six years working on a model of her.  (Photos:  http://gallery.drydockmodels.com/hancock )

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 4:21 PM
I believe that the Hancock was a schooner but you are correct about the Boston. It was a 24 gun frigate.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Switzerland
Posted by Imperator-Rex on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 1:06 PM
It should be remembered that the same name could be used by both the French and the British ships and that names of vessels were re-used by both navies, which at times can be very confusing!

For instance, HMS Flore/Flora was built before 1777, for she took part in the famous engagement with US frigates Boston and Hancock. But there's another HMS Flora built in 1780 in Blackwall... Not to mention the armed briggs that the Royal Navy used during the Napoleonic wars, also named Flora. And you also have the French Floras: one in 1707 (sold 1723), another one in 1728 (sold 1761).

As for La Vestale, she was build in 1756, had 30 guns, was captured by HMS Unicorn on 8th Jan. 1761 and renamed Flora on 16th Feb. 1761; on 8 Aug. 1778 she was scuttled by the Brits evacuating Rhode Island, raised by the Americans and sold to the French (no privateering). In 1784 she became the French privateer La Flore-Américaine, to be captured by HMS Phaeton on 7th Sept. 1798 and finally sold the same year. Sources on the Vestale include Jean Boudriot (See http://fr.msnusers.com/JacquesKanon/frgates16821787.msnw)

For those interested: Jean Boudriot: Les Frégates, La Flore. Neptunia magazine Vol. 28, Paris, 1973. pp 109:37-48, ill. (http://www.amis-musee-marine.net/pages/Neptunia/Neptunia.htm),
translated edition by Nautical Research Guild (http://www.naut-res-guild.org/reprints2.htm), Inc., vol. 27-4 (Dec. 1981): THE FRIGATES - LA FLORE, by Jean Boudriot, translated by H. Bartlett Wells

To make things worse, the plans of Les Amis du Musée de la Marine seem to be a mere small study of the Flore, made in 1967...

So finding out the real identity of the Lindberg kit would be very tricky story indeed...
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, November 21, 2005 12:04 PM

I haven't seen the inside of the box of this kit for many years, and what I know about French naval history would fit in a good-sized thimble.  I do know that the first time I saw (and the only time I bought) the kit it was in a box labeled La Flore.  In shape and overall appearance it certainly seems to match what I can see in the ads of the Musee de la Marine plans for that vessel - and those plans are generally accepted as being fairly reliable (though not of course contemporary with the ship).  It's entirely possible that the kit was sold under the name Vestal (or Vestale) as well, though I've never seen it in a box with that name on it. 

I think the model in the JFK Library, the set of plans from the Musee de la Marine, and the Lindberg kit all represent the same vessel - real or speculative.  But if the ship did exist I'm pretty sure it wasn't the one that served in the British navy under the name Flora during the American Revolution.  The construction date of the JFK/MM/Lindberg La Flore is, so far as I can tell 1784 - seven years after H.M.S. Flora's famous action with the Continental frigates Boston and Hancock.  And it certainly doesn't look like a ship built much earlier than that.  (H.M.S. Unicorn, which allegedly captured this ship in 1761, is generally regarded as one of the first true British frigates.)  Some years ago I built a model of the Hancock, and did quite a bit of digging about that action.  I don't recall any mention of the Flora having been a French prize, but I could be mistaken about that.  When I get home this evening I'll see what I can find out about her.

La Flore apparently was a popular name in the French navy.  As a matter of fact, I think I recall reading an article quite a few years ago about the several 18th-century warships of that name, and how historians were constantly getting them mixed up.  I'll see if I can find that one too.  On the basis of the earlier posts in this thread I'm getting suspicious as to whether any of these "Flores" we've been discussing represents a real ship.  Jean Boudriot ceertainly deserves to be taken seriously; there's no finer authority on the French navy of the sailing ship period.

We need to be careful about the use of the words "pirate" and "privateer."  As the centuries rolled by the words acquired substantially different meanings - mainly due to the refinement of international law and diplomatic traditions.  By the time we're discussing here (the late eighteenth century) a pirate and a privateer were extremely different people.

It's certainly true that in the days of Sir John Hawkins and Sir Francis Drake, the distinction between a privateer and a pirate was pretty blurry.  Hawkins, Drake, and company were sailing around capturing and destroying Spanish-owned vessels and claiming lands in the name of Queen Elizabeth I, who was highly selective in stating whether she approved of such activities or not.  When Drake made his voyage around the world there was, so far as I know, no formal declaration of war between England and Spain.  The Spanish undoubtedly regarded Drake as a pirate.  But he most emphatically regarded Spain as a nation with which England was at war - and of all the accusations that have been made against Drake (quite a few of them) I can't recall any implications that he was in the habit of taking English ships.  And if his government hadn't actually gone through the formality of declaring that a state of war existed, there's no doubt whatever that numerous government officials, including the queen herself, had invested money in Drake's venture.  If you call Drake either a privateer or a pirate, though, few will be in a position to give you much of an argument.

By the eighteenth century, though, international law and diplomatic custom had solidified to the point that there was a clear distinction between the two professions.  A privateer operated under the terms of a "letter of marque and reprisal" - an official document that gave him his government's permission to capture or destroy ships that were flying the flag of a nation with which his nation was at war.  Privateering was a perfectly legal way to wage war and make money.  (What a privateer captured, he kept - or sold at auction.)  In those days the military/civilian dichotomy was considerably less precise - and perceived to be less important - than it is today.  Able-bodied male civilians on land were expected to be members of the militia, and to fight against their nation's enemies when need arose.  And the owners and captains of merchant ships were actively encouraged by their governments to "go privateering."  Whenever word reached the American colonies that England had declared war on Spain or France, colonial sea captains and businessmen rushed to the judges' offices to get letters of marque.  Privateering was a perfectly respectable business (though I'm sure some decidedly non-respectable people participated in it as well).  If a privateer got captured by the enemy, he expected to be treated as a prisoner of war - as a captured militiaman would be.  One of the big steps on the road to the creation of the United States came when, in the spring of 1776, the Continental Congress voted to start issuing letters of marque, so American sea captains could go privateering against the British.  That was seen as a definitive declaration that the colonies now regarded themselves as an independent nation. 

A pirate was a criminal.  He didn't have any government's permission to do what he did - which generally was to seize any merchant ship he could find, irrespective of what flag it flew. Government officials occasionally collaborated with pirates (e.g., the governor of the colony of North Carolina and his friend Edward Teach, aka Blackbeard), but such officials thereby became crooks and felons themselves; piracy was not a legally-sanctioned activity.  If a pirate got captured ("arrested" would be a better term) - by anybody, from any nation - he could expect to be put on trial and hanged.

One thing the two professions had in common:  participants in them operated by sharing the proceeds.  A privateer generally hired his crew, and paid the men out of the proceeds when his prizes were sold at auction.  A pirate did much the same thing - illegally.  Both of them were able to function, financially speaking, only for as long as they continued taking prizes.  

I've never really been bitten by the piracy bug, but on the basis of what I have read I think it would be extremely unusual to find a ship as big as the ones represented by those Lindberg kits involved in piracyA frigate like La Flore would need a crew of at least 200 men.  Even if a pirate captain somehow managed to acquire such an expensive vessel without paying for it, the maintenance expenses would be staggering.  He'd have to capture a vast number of extremely valuable prizes on a regular basis just to maintain the ship and pay those 200 men enough to make the enterprise worth their while.  In modern terms, that would be the equivalent of somebody stealing a Perry-class frigate and using it to conduct criminal activities at his own expense.  Not impossible, I suppose, but highly unlikely.  And the notion of a ship-of-the-line, like the Wappen von Hamburg, serving as a pirate ship is, I'm afraid, pretty ridiculous.

The typical pirate ship from the "golden age of piracy" (the late 17th and early 18th centuries) was much smaller.  It was fast (so it could catch merchantmen and run away from warships), and could be handled by a relatively small crew - a group small enough that the captain could afford to pay them. 

The pirate of the "golden age" - the "shiver-me-timbers," "Long John Silver," "jolly roger" type - is largely a creation of fiction.  To the extent that such people did exist, they regarded themselves as businessmen; the bottom line in piracy was money.  But, during that period in history at any rate, a pirate most definitely was not a privateer. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by RALPH G WILLIAMS on Sunday, November 20, 2005 12:33 AM

The model in the JFK Library is the close match to the Lindberg Kit. . The unrevised  publication  may or may not be as accurate , but it is the most interesting.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Saturday, November 19, 2005 10:22 PM

John Millar published a revision of  'American Ships of the Colonial and Revolutionary Period' in 1986, simply titled "Early American Ships".   He revised his opinion of 'La Flore' during the intervening eight years after further research.

'Vestale' was built in 1756 in the same yard and at the same time as 'Brune', both designed by JJ Ginoux. and both with nearly identical dimensions. Mr. Millar redrew his plans of 'Flora', to match those of 'Brune', with distinctive French lines.

He commented that the Musee de Marine model is different in both size and shape from any known french frigate. 'it is believed to represent no more  than an experimental design that was never executed'.   

Jean Boudriot's 'The History of the French Frigate" (1992) doesn't even include the vessel shown in the Musee de Marine. 

The mystery of the vessel's identity, or if it ever actually existed, remains.

 

 

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    November 2005
Lindberg"s "Jolly Roger" a real pirate ship!
Posted by RALPH G WILLIAMS on Saturday, November 19, 2005 6:52 PM

The "Jolly Roger" is in reality the French Frigate "la Vestal" built in 1756. She took part in the "Battle of Quiberay Bay " in 1759. She was captured by the Brirish Frigate Unicorn in January 1761 and her name was changed to "The Flora".  She served in the Royal Navy under Captain John Brisbane and was scuttled in New Port Rhode Island in August of 1778.   The Americans raised her in 1780 and re-fitted her,and she was employed as an  American Privateer, "The Flora" until she was sold back to the French Navy and became  "La Flore".  The French realised that they already had a "La Flore" and renamed her "La Reconnaissance".    She was cruising off of Africa from 1787 to 1789, and her captain reported that "she steered  well and heeled less than any warship in Europe"  In 1792 the French Navy decommissioned her and sold her to Sieur Faure de Rochefort for use as a Privateer. She was again captured by the British in 1798, and sold in the Admiralty Court. 

There are four paintings of her in  British service by Francis Holman in the Peabody Museum  in Salem MA. and there are two wooden models of her , one at "the Muree de la Marine" in Paris and one which was given to President John F. Kennedy by the French  Minister of Culture when President and Mrs. Kennedy visited France in the early 1960's.   The  second model is in the JFK Library in Dorchester, MA.    Information I have is that the Lindberg Kit is almost a perfict  match with the JFK model, including the correct decoration on her stern and stern galleries..  Reference ; American Ships of the Colonial and Revolutionary Period "  by John Millar  1978   p. 128-131.  It appears that this ship was indeed a pirate ship, not once but twice.    Later I will give you information on the other famous "Pirate Ship" Lindberg"s Captain Kidd, actually the Wappen von Hamburg,

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