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My poor Santa Maria

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  • Member since
    November 2005
My poor Santa Maria
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 9, 2005 11:17 AM

Well,

This should come as no surprise from a newbie, but I have made another mistake.Sad [:(]

My Santa Maria looks like it has been in a snow storm.

I have been painting this beauty for a couple of weeks now. I use on acrylic paints. On Sunday, I wanted to put the top deck and hulls together. So today I painted on my first flat clear coat.

Oh my. Now it is all fogged over. All of it. I do not know what to do now. I am not sure if I will sleep.

I am hoping someone will have some clue as to what may have happened and more importantly, what I may be able to do to salvage this.Confused [%-)]

Details:

Several layers of acrylic flat paints.

Flat clear coat: Mr. Hobby TOPCOAT

Last acrylic painting session 36 hours ago.

Thi has not happened the other times I have used this.

Let me get some sleep and put me out of my misery by giving me some upbeat news or idea.Question [?]

I guess I shouldn't have been joking with Vapo about his Victory build!Banged Head [banghead]

Thank you,

Robert

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 9, 2005 12:59 PM

HA HA!Boohoo [BH] (sorry, could not resist, mean't no harm ,honest)

My guess, from readings here, is that you maybe applied it too heavey, or did not shake the can enough before spraying. As for a repair, being a laquer over Acrylic, I'm not sure it can be rescued, what for some other replies, and also get the thread moved to painting section, you'll likely get more help there.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, December 9, 2005 4:29 PM

It's possible that the sprayed finish has reacted with the acrylic paint underneath.  But it's just as likely a problem related to humidity, which can cause clear finishes like that to "blush" or turn frosty - especially if they're applied a little too thickly. 

It's conceivable - barely - that if you put another, thin coat on, it will soften up the first coat and everything will be ok.  I'm inclined to think, though, that you really have two options.  One - if what's already there hasn't blobbed up the details too much, paint over it.  Two - strip everything off and start over.

Various commonly-available chemicals remove paint without damaging the underlying plastic.  My old favorite is automotive brake fluid.  Find a metal container that will hold the model (I like the cheap aluminum baking pans that are available in grocery stores around here) and soak the model in the brake fluid for half an hour or so.  Most of the paint probably will fall off of its own accord.  To remove the rest, go to work on it with an old toothbrush - preferably under running water in the kitchen sink. 

Other modelers report good results from oven cleaner.  I haven't tried that. 

For future reference, PolyScale makes a clear flat finish that I find just about ideal.  It goes on easily with brush or airbrush, dries almost instantly, and in my experience has never failed to dry properly.  When I'm about to quite after a session of rigging, I usually get out the jar of clear flat and use it to touch up any tiny spots of glue, etc. that look a little shiny.  I've never had anything but good results from that product.  If your local dealer doesn't carry PolyScale, maybe he has Testor's Acryl clear flat finish.  I don't have as much experience with it, but I've used it a few times with perfectly satisfactory results.

Hang in there.  Look at this as an opportunity to do it even better the second time.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Friday, December 9, 2005 7:45 PM

If your saying it kind of turned whitish.a couple of things .Was the flat coat you used and acrylic? Did you spray with a spray can or a airbrush? What will help is get a flat coat acrylic in a bottle along with some Future floorwax mix them together half and half.If you have a airbrush spray at a low pressure in light coats.If you don't have a airbrush use a regular fine brush and manual apply in light coats.You have to real watch flat coats when the product gets old or is applied to heavy it will fog.I now always mix my flats with Future it works great.Also try scrubbing your model with a fine toothbrush and dishwasher liguid soap very lightly before you do the above.If you still have problems Email me at millard@pathwaynet.com and we can get together on the phone and I'll give you some tips.

Rod

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 9, 2005 8:28 PM

Thanks all for the suggestions,

Last night I was so upset. "Why oh why" I kept asking myself could I let myself get into ship modeling. I will never be able to do a good job. My ships will never be "awesome" looking. Etc. etc.

This morning I woke up, looked at my Sick little Santa Maria hoping that she would have cured herself (bad pun), but alas, no such luck. But I do remember my last thoughts. I have gotten into modeling because it is interesting and fun. Not for show. If they look horrible at the end of the day, then so be it. It is the time spent building it and learning that is the most important. (sorry, poor philosophical announcement)

I am trying the suggestion of spraying on light coats of clear to see if this helps. If not, back to the drawing boards and paint again. Should go much faster this time anyway. I could also change some things which weren't quite right the first time.

I now chalk this up as another learning experience. The last thing to do while building a model is to rush. There is no such thing as rushing it. I am sure to make this mistake (rushing it) again, but now my thick skull is starting to get the picture. Go slow, I say, go slow.

Wish my little Nao your best,

Robert

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: arizona
Posted by cthulhu77 on Saturday, December 10, 2005 7:54 AM

   I heavily recommend buying a "strip-a-kit" from your local store or online supplier:

http://www.hangar3.com/sak.htm

 

    Once the acrylic has fogged, it is usually toast...but before you beat yourself up too much, try this stuff out...it sounds like an ordeal, but actually works really fast and really easily...I would say within an hour or so, you can be back on track !  Your advice to yourself was the best...patience is a modeler's friend !

                   greg

http://www.ewaldbros.com
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 10, 2005 8:44 AM

Thanks for the help Greg,

I live in Taiwan and to find these type of items is very dificult.

Eg. For building my Santa Maria I needed different dia. thread. He pointed to his button and said I could use sewing thread. Or I want to round out my kit by getting the Nina and Pinta. Could he please order these in for me. No! They don't do that. Funny place.

Anyway, I took the plunge and started the repaint process. It should go faster as I know what needs t be done on this model. Now I am going to make it look better than before. I am aoiding the temptation to just throw some paint on it and be done with it. I will do the best I can with shadowing, washes, etc.

Again thanks for the information. It may come in handy with my other build. Heller's Pamir 1/150 barque.. A much more involved build.

Robert

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 10, 2005 11:22 AM

If you want to remove the old paint there is a way. i don't know if you will be able to get it in Taiwan thow.  in the us its called easy off oven cleaner. If you can get it get the one that is oderless. no smell.

spray it on and let it it soak it for a half hour. then use a tooth brush and scrub it off. if the detail needs more spray it again. 

good luck

skip

wingnut163

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 10, 2005 11:55 AM
 wingnut163 wrote:

If you want to remove the old paint there is a way. i don't know if you will be able to get it in Taiwan thow.  in the us its called easy off oven cleaner. If you can get it get the one that is oderless. no smell.

spray it on and let it it soak it for a half hour. then use a tooth brush and scrub it off. if the detail needs more spray it again. 

good luck

skip

wingnut163

 

I know that stuff works, I had to do the hull on the victory again, so used easy off to strip it.

MJH
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by MJH on Saturday, December 10, 2005 6:15 PM
Sorry to hear about the Santa Maria, that's very disappointing.

When using any form of oven cleaner and a brush be sure to wear eye protection!

I use a bucket of fairly strong caustic soda (such as is sold to unblock drains) to strip models.  It works extremely well on enamels like Humbrol but I'm not sure how effective it is on acrylics.  Newish paint takes under an hour but some old kit restoration jobs have taken a week or more.  The bucket sits in a corner of the shed ready for use any time and just needs occasional top-ups.  It has a tight lid of course, just in case I 'kick the bucket'.

Michael

!

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 11, 2005 12:44 AM

Hello all,

I didn't need to remove the old paint. I only got discoloration. No bubbles, etc. So I am just painting over the top.

I can get oven cleaner no problem. Chinese food is often cooked in lots of oil. Oven cleaner is used often. Next to this website, Oven cleaner is my best friend. I have already used it many times in my long career as a modeler. 2 to 3 months.

As mentioned, I am repainting her. Now that I know this model, it should go much faster.

I am however very hesitant on using a clear coat again. Do I need to use it? Why put anything over the final paint job?

Anyway,

Thanks from Robert

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 11, 2005 1:30 AM

To protect the paint, and give a nice even matt finish.

I will need to do it to mine before I start the riggingSigh [sigh]

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, December 11, 2005 9:55 AM

There seem to be some fairly widespread misconceptions about how modern hobby paints work.  Maybe a little discussion is in order to clear it up.  My own experience has generally been with PolyScale (my favorite), Testor's Acryl, Testor's enamel, Model Shipways acrylics, Humbrol enamels, Pactra enamels, and a few brands that are now defunct.  I've fooled around a little with Tamiya and Gunze acrylics, but not enough to comment intelligently on them.  Maybe other Forum members with other experiences will jump in.

I'm assuming that we're talking about name-brand paints sold specifically for use on plastic models. (Artist acrylics and oils do take some different application and preparation techniques.)  Hobby paints from the major manufacturers are designed to stick to plastic.  They do not require primer or anything else to make them stick. 

When styrene plastic comes out of a mold, it sometimes has a thin coating of a substance called "mold release" on it.  That material can inhibit the adhesion of the paint.  It's a good idea to start any plastic modeling project by washing the parts, either in a substance sold for the purpose (e.g., "Plastic Prep") or diluted dishwashing detergent.  I confess, though, that in 49 years of plastic modeling I frequently haven't bothered to do that, and have never observed any ill effects.

Occasionally one does run into a piece of plastic (in the products of small, cottage-industry manufacturers, for instance) that has a waxy finish to which paint has trouble sticking.  But the styrene from the major kit manufacturers is generally excellent stuff.  If the paint won't stick to it, something's wrong - either with that particular bottle of paint, or with the way the modeler's applying it.  In either case, it's highly unlikely that a primer will help much.

The only real use for a primer on styrene plastic parts is to give them a uniform color and texture.  Sometimes light-colored paints have trouble covering dark-colored plastic in one coat.  If the model has had filler applied to it, the filler and the plastic may look different under the paint.  And if one color of paint is trying to cover two contrasting colors of plastic, it may take an unacceptable number of coats to prevent the different colors from showing through.  (On that Heller Victory that I was sent for review many years ago the hull was molded in yellow and the rudder, for some reason, was bright red.)  In a case like that, a thin coat of grey primer would make it easier for the paint to do its job.

Modern hobby paints generally give excellent coverage and durability.  Any paint applied to a non-porous surface can be rubbed off if it's subjected to sufficient brutalization, but if you're reasonably careful that shouldn't be a problem on a model.

It's worth noting that enamels and acrylics behave a little differently when they're drying.  As it was explained to me by a scientist once, enamels dry from the inside out, whereas acrylics dry from the outside in.  Most acrylics seem to dry faster than most enamels, but that's a little deceptive.  Neither is actually dry (i.e., as dry as it's going to get) for several days - or even weeks.  If acrylic paint tends to rub off, that's probably because it isn't thoroughly dry yet. 

Some people have the notion that dried acrylic paint is vulnerable to water.  Not true (unless you've done something very wrong in applying it).  Dried acrylic paints are no more susceptable to water damage than latex house paints.  The chemists (geniuses, in my opinion) long ago figured out how to make paint water-soluble when wet and waterproof when dry.  (If they hadn't, imagine what the houses in your neighborhood would look like after a rain storm.)  As an experiment, I once painted a 1/700 tugboat with Poly-S (the predecessor of PolyScale), let it dry for a couple of weeks, and submerged it in a jar of water.  A year later the tug was still under water, and the paint showed no sign whatever of coming loose.

In any case, the paint shouldn't need to be "protected" by any sort of finish.  Theoretically, I suppose, anything that increases the thickness of the finish will make it slightly more resistant to abrasion.  But it's hard to imagine a scenario in which a model would be struck by something that would take off the clear finish without taking off the underlying paint as well.

Clear finish coats have two actual purposes:  to change the degree of glossiness, and to make stuff stick on top of the paint.  (Some modelers use pastel powder for weathering, for example.  That stuff will rub off if it isn't held in place by a fixative.)  One of the most common uses of clear finishes these days has to do with decals (which aren't common in sailing ship modeling).  Decals stick much better to glossy surfaces than to flat ones, so the modeler sprays the area with a gloss finish.  When the decals are dry, a coat of flat finish makes the whole surface, including the decals, look flat again.  That "evening out" characteristic may also come in handy if you've used different brands of paint on the model, or for some other reason they have different amounts of gloss.  (That can happen.  Every color has a different chemical composition, and one "flat" color may be a little shinier than another - even if both came from the same manufacturer.)  Another use of clear flat finish is to camouflage mistakes.  When I'm working on a model's rigging I keep a bottle of PolyScale clear flat on the workbench all the time.  Before I quit for the evening I take a careful look at the model under a bright light, and if I find any tiny shiny spots, where drops of glue show or I've inadvertently scratched the paint, I give each of them a drop of clear flat. 

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm a big fan of PolyScale clear flat.  I usually apply it with a brush; I defy anybody to find brush marks in it.  Occasionally, on airplane models, I've airbrushed it, with completely satisfactory results.  I've never known it to blush, or otherwise misbehave.  I'm always nervous with spray cans; they have their uses, but they just don't offer the control that a brush or airbrush does.  And clear sprays are hugely vulnerable to atmospheric changes.  (I wonder if the humidity of Taiwan had something to do with Spelunko's problem.)

One of the huge virtues of modern hobby paints is that they cover with such thin coats. One reason why old ship models show so much unpainted wood and brass is that the paints of those days couldn't give thorough coverage without obscuring detail.  Today we don't have that problem - unless we create it ourselves.  Yes, if you insist on applying a couple of coats of primer, two or three coats of color, and a couple of coats of clear finish on top, the details of the underlying parts are likely to start disappearing.  But there's no need to do that.  Apply the final color directly to the plastic.  Buy good brushes.  Get some practice with your brush technique (or airbrush technique, if you insist); practice makes a good deal of difference.  When you're done painting, take a good look at the finished product.  If it has a uniform, even finish with no objectionable variation in gloss, leave it alone.  It's finished.  If you aren't happy with the degree or uniformity of the sheen, think about applying a clear finish - but be careful with it.

Too long as usual, but I hope that helps a little.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 11, 2005 4:03 PM

Actually, enamels don't just dry, they etch into the plastic as well, but thats a function of the solvent rather than the pigment. Whereas, Acrylics dry by pure evaporation of the Aqueous carrier(I won't say water because most are not just water).

Enamels are much more resiliant to release compound(which 9 times out of 10 is a silicon based spray), due to the chemical reaction that takes place during the cure. As the solvent softens the plastic slightly, it pushes the silicon molecule aside.Acrylics, are much less able to do so, when used with just water. But adding something like the the Tamiya Acrylic thinner actually helps displace the release compound along with oily finger marks/skin oils etc. Also helps the drying time and the way it drys.

Reason being, that the solvent will form a barrier arounf the water/pigment, and will need to evaporate before the aqueous starts to evaporate, so giving you a better chance of a good finish.

Now, I have to dissagree with you JT. The clearcoat be it gloss or flat, will give protection to the undercoat. Take the flat black on the Victory, it's a dust magnet! and due to the matt surface, not easy to clean or keep clean! However the flat clearcoat, is easier to clean and seems to attract less dust in the first place. Slight scratches in the clear coat can be touched up with less visible effects than the undercoat.

Modern cars are painted with a clear coat, that's why it is no longer reccomended to use a cutting compound to polish cars. Pigments oxidise, needed to be cut with a compound after a few years, the clear coat stops that oxidization making your yellow or your reds stay true to life for a lot longer

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, December 11, 2005 6:13 PM

If a clear finish coat is applied carefully (so it doesn't blush, like Spelunko's did) it probably can't do any harm.  And if the clear coat were applied thickly it probably would make the color coat underneath slightly less vulnerable to abrasion.  But we're talking about minutely-thin coats here.  The whole idea in painting a model is to make the paint/finish coats as thin as possible. The series of primer, color, and clear coats that are applied to a car body would wreck the detail on something like the hull of a plastic ship model.

The biggest culprit in making hobby paints (as opposed to the ones used on things like car bodies) fade is ultraviolet light, and the biggest source of it is sunlight.  I suppose it's possible that a clear finish coat might slow down the effect of UV light on paint slightly, but I don't think it would help much.  (Again, we're talking about an extremely thin coat of the stuff.)  It's always a bad idea to put a model where it gets hit by direct sunlight on a regular basis.  I've got several models that I painted (with no clear coat) twenty or twenty-five years ago; they've been kept in cases, under artificial light, and the colors look fine.  (I've compared them, on occasion, with paints straight out of the bottles.  There's no detectable color shift.)  I've also seen the effect of sunlight on quite a few models.  It's absolutely devastating.

Clear coats, if carefully applied, can't hurt anything.  But I continue to contend that, under normal circumstances, they aren't necessary.  If your model looks good to you without the clear coat, there is, to my notion, no good reason to bother with it. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 11, 2005 6:51 PM
do you use the rattle can stuff or mix your own and AB it, or simply brush it on?
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, December 12, 2005 8:22 AM

Vapo,

Not sure whom the question was directed at.

I had used the rattle can flat clear coat this time. I have used the Future. Perhaps I will just use that. I just wanted a flat coat is all.

If I can get over this learning curve (which seems like mt. Everest at the moment) I may break down and buy an airbrush. Again, another learning curve. I am seriously considering the Badger 150-5. A dual action, siphon airbrush which seems to allow the use of Tamiya paint bottle is desired. THis way I can still use flat paints, etc.

Again all thank you,

Robert

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 12, 2005 1:44 PM

Future is good stuff - if what you're after is a high-gloss finish.  But I doubt that it is.

My impression is that most modelers use Future to provide a base for decals.  For that purpose it's excellent.  An aircraft modeler will coat the entire model with Future, apply the decals, then apply some sort of flat finish.  That kills the gloss that the Future put there.

If you want your final finish to be flat, and there are no decals to worry about, I don't see any reason to use Future.

In the pictures on your other thread (though of course it's hard to tell on a computer monitor) the paintwork you've got looks fine.  I continue to be a little confused as to why you're thinking in terms of clear finishes at all.  If you've gotten a good, even, flat finish from the paint itself, my suggestion is to leave it as it is.

You've had one bad experience with spray cans of clear finish.  If I were in your shoes I wouldn't be anxious to repeat it.  I can only speak from real experience about one flat finish:  PolyScale.  I've found that it goes on superbly with either a brush or an airbrush.  (If I remember correctly, it doesn't even have to be thinned for airbrushing.  I may be wrong about that.)  It's never shown me any tendency to blush, and it dries almost instantly.  I've used the Testor's acrylic equivalent a few times (the nearest store that carries PolyScale is 35 miles away), with good results.  If you really want a clear finish coat, I'd recommend either of those.  I personally would apply it with a brush, but on the basis of what I've seen an airbrush will work fine too.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Monday, December 12, 2005 2:04 PM
Hello,
I use acrylics, pastels, and inks a lot.  None of these work very well with a enamel or laquer top coats, which will either cause peeling, crazing, running, or cracking.

Two dull coat sprays that I use are found in either art supply shops or floral shops.  The first is a dull coat spray that graphic artists use on paintings and rendurings. Some popular makers are Grambaucher and Liquidtex.  Another safe clearcoat I have used is the satin spray that floralists use on flower arrangements.  Ask your local floralist or craft store.

I prefer these types of sprays over the hobby sprays because they are not as aggressive on materials other than plastic or enamel.  On a sailing ship, I may have wood, cloth, metal, and other materials that a hobby top coat spray may disfigure.

I too use Future a lot, but being water based, cannot be used on cotton, ink, or pastels.

Scott

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Madison, Mississippi
Posted by Donnie on Monday, December 12, 2005 7:56 PM
Don't be so hard on yourself - don't stop doing models just because of this one thing. Trying to be perfect, on building a model is time consuimg and everyone makes mistakes and wish they had done their model a little differently.
Go buy another one the same kind and just start all over again. Use the model that you have for spare parts !

Donnie

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Monday, December 12, 2005 8:15 PM

When using Future mixed with and acrylic flat coat.It keeps the flat coat from fogging up. It gives more of and even flow over your model. Armour modelers have been doing it for years that way.I've found it to be a very nice look on my models.I try to make my plastic look like aged wood after been at sea. Its hard to describe. If you could see it you would get a better idea.But it does a good job.But everone as there favorite way.Myself I always am trying out different suggestions to see what works better.

Rod

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 8:36 AM

OK

I have used future before and knew what it would do. I have finally got the color right (in my mind) for the hull. I put a coat of future on it but it is too shiny. This is OK because I have a final paint session with washing the hull planking, using a vary dark red for the larger hull beams, etc. Following this, I will again (Call me a glutton for punishment) try clear coat. I will be going very light on this. I have used it before on the decks wthout a problem so I think I can do it again. I must have not been careful enough last time.

Robert

On the side to hide this a bit: I have seen penty of posts on here about the best kits, etc. How about one on the best kit from _______ (insert manufacturer) ? I am too nervous to pst that question however.

Thank you all for your support, incouragement and inspiration

 

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