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Interior Colors

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:22 PM
Dear Schoonberbumm,
  I just read your forum on Capt. H.T. Beaky Armstrong.RN.  I am a naval historian completing a lengthy article about HMS Laforey and the sinking of both the destroyer and U-223. I would like to point out some inaccuracies in your forum. HMS Laforey was one of several British escorts hunting the U-boat north of Sicily not off Anzio.U-223 was not the last German submarine sunk in the Med during WWII. Two more U-boats were sunk in April 1944 alone. Although some sources allege the T-5 that hit Laforey came from U-223's stern tube, in a wartime POW interrogation by the British, the boat's torpedo man said her stern tube jammed.This same POW interrogation revealed that the U-boat had originally been contacted on 28 March 1944 by two Allied escorts, maybe minesweepers, which depth charged her destroying her 20mm gun mount. On 29 March , Laforey left Naples to join other escorts, Ulster Tumult, which had resumed the hunt. Laforey called for reinforcements and two US destroyers, Ericsson and Kearney,  and 3 American PCs were sent out to join in. Ulster departed(out of depth charges), HMS Wilton arrived and at 1600 she too left. Hambledon and Blencathra(Hunt class) arrived and when the U-boat surfaced they opened fire. U-223 shot a T-5 homing torpedo which hit and blew up Laforey.
  The most recent auhtor writing about U-223 and this unique incident is Bernard Edwards,Twlilight of the U-boats, but he has not given a completely full account either. Hope this helps,
Mickey

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 11:27 PM
I commend you on your research for the biography. Having a strong interest in my own family's history. especially a Naval Aviator whom was killed in Vietnam flyin' the RA-5C Vigilante. I wish you the best of luck in your project.
  Sounds like Capt. Armstrong was quite a man & a lucky one at that. Even though his luck eventually ran out.   Have you tried to get his Military Service Records?  There might be some ships logs available, Action/After Action reports, Ships histories,etc.
  One thing I like about Barnes & Noble, I can go in there & look at a book before I buy it. You might  consider going there & look for "Allied Coastal Forces of WWII" vol.1 as it deals with the Destroyers, Escorts, Minesweepers, etc.   I will ask around & do some research of my own for you and I'll let you know.

If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 10:42 PM

Captain Armstrong was my wife's step-mother's brother (my step uncle in law?).

He was an up and coming RN officer in WWII, with both fame and family connections (his brother commanded the royal yacht and Winston Churchill personally called his father back from retirement to command the Royal Navy's navigation school).  He was pegged as a possible future First Lord of the Admiralty by his contemporaries until he got himself killed off the Anzio beaches while making the last U-boat kill in the Med. After 24 hours of depth charging, U-223 surfaced in the dark and tried to make a run for it under fire from Laforey. The U-boat fired a T-5 homing torpedo from her stern tube which blew up HMS Laforey, killing most of the crew, including Capt. Armstrong. (Laforey's 'foxer' had been expended by a acoustic torpedo hit on it during a previous action)  U-223 was badly damaged by depth charges and gunfire and was abandoned on the surface but her work for the night wasn't finished, circling around and running over many of her crew as they floated on the surface.

Armstrong demontrated his command ability in Insect Class river gunboats (Cochafer and Cricket) on the Yangtze River in the late 30s. Prior to that he commanded the Sloop HMS Fowey.  He entered  WWII  in Command of HMS Wren, an old leftover from WWI with a gaelic fisherman crew, only a fourth of which spoke English, but they were good seamen.  Wren fought off Norway and in the evacuation of France. He impressed with his ability to develop and train a crew and was given command of Maori in 1940 (three months before Wren was sunk in the channel by the Luftwaffe).  While in command of Maori, he also had command of the 2nd division (Maori and Piorun) of Vian's 4th Destroyer Flotilla at the time of the Bismarck chase (they were escorting troop convoy WS-8B around Ireland when called off to escort Tovey's capital ships). Until the 1950s he was credited with a torpedo hit on the Bismarck during her last night [a post war German account claims that there were no torpedo hits... that a foc'sl fire broke out on Bismarck from one of Maori's star shells landing on the deck, at the same time Bismarck lost propulsion in a drive train jam during one of the many prop reversals used in attempts to steer Bismark - it appeared to the British that an explosion (Bismarck's gun flashes) at the timed arrival of Maori's torpedoes started secondary fires (German claims of Maori's star shell landing on deck) and stopped Bismarck dead in the water (German claims of propulsion malfunction)]   Some references still credit the 4th DF with two hits on the Bismarck. There has never been definitive evidence, one way or the other... but based on the circumstances of the battle, the odds are against a successfull torpedo hit, much less two.

After the Bismarck action Vian was promoted to Admiral and Armstrong was promoted to Captain (D) and given HMS Onslow and the 17th Destroyer Flotilla (mostly still under construction in the yards) to develop and train. He commanded the 17th in Commando raids on Norway, escorted convoys to Russia (destroyer escort command of PQ-18), provided cover for the Torch landings and was credited (Onslow) with one confirmed U-boat kill (during PQ-18) .  About six months after his transfer to Onslow,  Maori was sunk by the Luftwaffe at Malta.

His greatest achievement was the Bristish victory in the Battle of the Barent's Sea.  Unfortunately, he only received 'informal' credit. At the end of 1942 he was given a staff command position in Coastal Forces, his Captain (D) position taken by Capt. Rupert St. Vincent Sherbrooke, a descendant of the famous Admiral St. Vincent. In the Barents sea battle, a small force of destroyers successfully protected convoy JW-51B from the heavy cruisers Hipper and Lutzow and six German destroyers long enough for the cavalry (HMS Jamaica and Sheffield) to arrive and beat off the German force. The british destroyers were battered and Sherbrooke greviously wounded early in the battle. HMS Onslow survived, barely. The battle was a 'soldier's battle' with the Captain (D) severely wounded early on and command transferring four times from one destroyer to another as they were each knocked out of action.  Even though Sherbrooke displayed great bravery and provided a great example, it was the training and discipline and esprit de corps of DF 17 that won the battle.  All the work of Capt. Armstrong. Sherbrooke had been in command for little more than a month, and had not even met most of his Commanders in person by the time of the battle. But the propaganda value of Sherbrooke was immense, here was a descendant of St. Vincent, wounded like Nelson (loss of an eye) showing incredible bravery against unsurmountable odds, a direct link to the old Navy traditions and mythology. Sherbrooke got the Victoria Cross and Armstrong got a training command in Coastal Forces.

At the end of 1943, Capt. Armstrong was given HMS Laforey and the 19th Destroyer Flottila in the Med. Laforey battled U-boats, guided bombs and E-boats off the Italian coast.  After leaving his three prior commands shortly before each was sunk or heavily damaged,  Captain Armstrong's luck ran out while battling U-223 off of the Anzio beachhead.   

After the war, like after most wars, most heros (dead or alive) faded from memory. Unfortunately the only newsworthy item after the war was the scandal when his American born widow (an heir to a Department Store fortune and classmate of Catherine Hepburn) remarried, to a German prisoner of war, an enlisted man, no less.  Interestingly enough, the German's passing last year rated a half page obituary and photo in the Daily Telegraph. Probably the press's first reference on Captain Armstrong in 50 years.      

Anyway, back to the question.... I'm writing a biography for the family and am looking for references. I have dozens of books that refer to him and have been able to piece together a fairly good outline of his career.  I have found numerous references to his 'valuable contributions' to developing 'Coastal Farces' into a credible fighting force against the E-boats, but have found no specifics yet as to what he actually did.  

 

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 2:35 PM
Thank you very much Garth. Much appreciated.
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    December 2005
Posted by PTConsultingNHR on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 2:16 PM
They were white Hippy Ed.  Look in PT Boats In Action.
 
Garth
  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 12:21 PM
Schoonerbumm,
I did a google search & found this link
http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/official/adm234/adm234-509tovey.html

down about 2/3rds of the page I found a Cmdr Harold T. Armstrong C/O of the Maori who'd been pulled off escorting troop Convoy WS-8B
hth,
Eddie

P,S, Allied Coastal Forces Vol.1 might be of interest to you as it deals with the bigger "boats" 100' mine sweepers, etc. Vol.2 (the one I have) is on Vospers, MTBs & PT boats.
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 11:37 AM
 schoonerbumm wrote:

Hippy-Ed.

Does the Coastal Forces book mention anything on Capt. Harold T. Armstrong, R.N.?

TIA



I just got the book & haven't had a chance to read it fully. I just skimmed thru it to look at the pics & drawings so far. I did look to see if there was an index but, there isn't. I've got the name down so, I'll keep an eye open for it & if I find it, I'll let ya know. Smile [:)]  May I ask who this person is & is there anything else you know about him? Such as what boat/ sqn, approx. dates of service?
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 12:07 AM

Hippy-Ed.

Does the Coastal Forces book mention anything on Capt. Harold T. Armstrong, R.N.?

TIA

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Monday, February 6, 2006 11:48 PM
Hey Buffalo Builder, I think the RN Torpedo boats were the same as the US PT boats on the interior. I'm sure EdGrune will know more on this & I'll check my books on the PT Boats & get back to this.
AlsoI just received the book Allied Coastal Forces of WWII vol.2 written by John Lambert & Al Ross. Between it & the Chun's book, I've got plenty of info to work with.
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, February 6, 2006 8:06 PM

jDo you have any idea about the interior colors on Kriegsmarine and Royal Navy torpedo boats. I've been researching these threads and I am building the Revell S-100, Airfix Vosper and the Revell PT-109. Yes, I blatantly stole the idea from the really cool work done by the gentleman in Fine Scale a couple of issues ago. I'm really trying hard not to get bogged down on minutae regarding colors and such. I've been seriously modeling for 10 years and my wife really wants me to finish one before I die.

Any help with the interior colors will make my life nearly complete.

Big Smile [:D]

Bogged Down in Buffalo

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:29 PM
Ok fellas, I just ordered the Victor Chun book along with the WEM PE sets for the 109 & 37mm gun. I'm looking foreward to recieving them Big Smile [:D] I'll have to wait for next payday to order the evergreen sheets & other stuff I need for this project Sad [:(] if Santa doesn't come thru...
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 1:39 PM
This was sent to me recently
<img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a261/HippyEd/ebgrm_fore_mid.jpg" border="0" />
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Saturday, December 17, 2005 5:22 PM
Walt, 80yrs old & thinks he's 21 again ay?! Impressive! Man, hope I'm like that at that age!! One thing I've learned from "prying" war stories out of vets is: Start off by asking a "stupid question" (one you know the right answer but, play it off as if you don't) That'll usually get 'em started and Look Out!! the stories fly from then on. PTers are a dying breed & their stories should be written down so future generations will know what really happened.
Keep after him.
Eddie
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: Connecticut
Posted by DBFSS385 on Saturday, December 17, 2005 2:47 PM

 Thanks, I have been blessed with the privledge of knowing him and several WW2 Submarine Vets who belong to US Subvets Inc. Most of them including the PT Boat Skipper are very humble guys and getting them to talk about their experiences  is a challenge, but when they do it's really something to behold.  Most of them have memory lapses with items like detail and colors etc. but wow the stories are so rich with history. Unfortunitly there are fewer and fewer of them every Day... My PT Boat Skipper friend is in his early 80s.. Yes his 80s and he handles that boat of his like he was 21 again...I have trouble with my 25' walk around. Go figure.

 

Be Well/DBF Walt
  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Saturday, December 17, 2005 10:22 AM
Thanks fellas, I appreciate the advice. Now, I just need to find some good interior pics so I can start figuring out how I can put it all together....
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Saturday, December 17, 2005 9:25 AM
Aircraft wheel wells are painted white for the same reason; so hydraulic fluid, oil and such are easier to spot. The bilges in nuclear reactor spaces are the same way!

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Friday, December 16, 2005 11:32 PM
Hey Walt, Your friend sounds like a great guy. Still out relivin' the PT days ay?(God Bless 'im!!) The lighter colors do make sense on finding leaks,etc. But man, I didn't join the Navy because grease & I are like magnets & "White" wouldn't survive long. Do try to talk your friend into writing a book on his PT Boat experiences. I'm sure many people would be interested in it.

Eddie
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: Connecticut
Posted by DBFSS385 on Friday, December 16, 2005 10:20 PM

The Fire retardant white had a grayish green tint to it that faded to a light green color similar to the Israeli Green mentioned before. I have a reliable source a gentleman who rode two different ELCO 80s and a 77 footer as skipper or Navigator/XO during the War. He also remembers a very light  green/gray being used in the Cabin and berthing bulkheads.

He does remember his training boat in Newport R.I. ( a higgins ) had all white interiors.The lighter color in engine room aided in finding leaks and gave better lighting conditions . He does say with candor that it didn't matter much because after a few months operations the Boats become very dirty and smoke, oil and fuel stained etc. inside and out. 

He still has a sharp mind and his family has always thought he could and maybe should write a book. He was the Skipper on the 510 boat I think. He has many photos all B&W unfortunitly.

This gentleman and his wife still power cruise on their classic 41 foot Matthews Cabin Cruiser.. solo..

Quite a guy.

Be Well/DBF Walt
  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Friday, December 16, 2005 8:28 PM
 Hippy-Ed wrote:
 EdGrune wrote:

Not green.   The response from Bill Smallshaw on Hyperscale/Ship Chat is correct with respect to it being.   Dig out your Chun for confirmation



Ed,  I'm currently waiting for payday so I can go  to Barnes & Noble to see if they have the Chun's book & a few others.  I'm sure the Library will have it (or can get it) & will stop by there soon.


EdGrune, I recieved word that the interior was indeed a fire Retardant white.  
"From the specs manual for the 565 series boats: ...Entire interior shall be painted with one coat of primer, glazed as required, and two coats of fire retardant white paint..."
 I also went to B&N today to look for some books. Got one on order (Allied Coastal Forces of WWII) Hopefully I'll get it. WIll stop by the library soon & see what I can find there too.
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:19 PM
 EdGrune wrote:

Not green.   The response from Bill Smallshaw on Hyperscale/Ship Chat is correct with respect to it being.   Dig out your Chun for confirmation



Ed,  I'm currently waiting for payday so I can go  to Barnes & Noble to see if they have the Chun's book & a few others.  I'm sure the Library will have it (or can get it) & will stop by there soon.
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Thursday, December 15, 2005 9:47 PM

Not green.   The response from Bill Smallshaw on Hyperscale/Ship Chat is correct with respect to it being.   Dig out your Chun for confirmation

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: Connecticut
Posted by DBFSS385 on Thursday, December 15, 2005 9:43 PM

Light Green.. The Navy Loves Light green ..Its in all their interiors from submarines to Carriers 

Testors Israeli green is close enough.

Be Well/DBF Walt
  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Interior Colors
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Thursday, December 15, 2005 4:53 PM
What color(s) were used in the PT boats? (ie: engine room, Crew quarters,etc) As y'all know, I'm planning to detail out a 1/72 Revell. I know, it'll be a challenge on such a small scale but hey,... modeling is FUN....
TIA
Eddie
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
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