wooden models

Hello Blighty,

By all means, there are a few of us around. The vast majority of my work has been in wooden vessels. The naval cutter is a very interesting and, in my mind, besautiful subject. I did one several years ago, a solid wood hull kit put out by the former Marine Models. As a matter of fact it was the first model I sold to a client. Keep in touch here and let us know about your progress.

Al Blevins

I've done a fair amount of work in wood too.  I really prefer not to think of myself as a "wood modeler" or a "plastic modeler," but just as a ship modeler. 

You picked an excellent subject to start with.  CalderCraft/Jotika is one of about three companies whose kits are designed to produce genuine scale ship models.  I haven't built a Calder kit myself, but I have the impression that the materials are of high quality, the plans are excellent, and the construction methods make sense. 

The two other wood kit companies whose products I can recommend are Bluejacket and Model Shipways.  They're American companies with a long tradition of serious, quality kits.

The big problem with the wood ship model kit industry, in my opinion, is that it's largely dominated by continental European companies whose agendas emphasize something other than scale modeling.  Their kits tend to be characterized by miserable (if not downright non-existent) research, lousy plans, mediocre materials, out-of-scale fittings, irrational construction methods - and outrageous prices.  It would be a mistake to generalize too much about this; I'm sure some of the kits by firms like Mamoli, Amati, Corel, Mantua, and their ilk are far better than others.  (I've seen some nice models that were based on them - by modelers who were willing and able to modify them extensively.)  But my first suggestion to newcomers is to stick with Model Shipways, Bluejacket, and Calder/Jotika.

Good luck.  It's a great hobby.

Another wooden ship model company has just announced their first model. A.J.Fisher has been reincarnated by Bill Partridge of Piel Craftsmen and has issued as their first model the Boston pilot boat DANCING FEATHER in, I believe, 1/64 scale. I built the prototype of this model for the late Bob Irwin of Fisher and also worked on the plans and directions for the kit. I am sure that Bill Partridge has put out a fine kit in the spirit of Fisher. You can find them on line at ajfisher.com. Bill has plans to issue three or four more models after the first of the year including the steam tug EDNA G.

Al Blevins

  I have a kit by Mantua for about six years now...I pull out the plans now and again, get worked up, then sigh and fold them back up.  Maybe in 2006.  Right.

Along time ago, I bought the Blue Nose Schooner.  I got the hull planket up on it and then got the scuppers (most of them) cut out. I think the repeating and gruling process of getting the scuppers cut out, burned me out on this project. I wish I could pick it up again. I should have bought a more simple pre-done hull to start with, but at the time, I had no idea. I would say that I bought this about 10 years ago and every now and then I would get it back out and start cutting the lettle holes out again. I only have about 10 more scuppers to go, but the wood is quite brittle.
Best of luck, wood boats are great, I just picked out my first one too big.
Donnie  

Hi!

Checkout the Dry Dock Models Forum:

http://forum.drydockmodels.com/index.php

and enter Sherbourne in the quick find window.

It will bring up 102 matches for Sherbourne.

There are also some photos of an excellant Sherbroune model by Chris Coyle

 in the Gallery section.

<Gleason>

Fargo, ND

-----

Are there any wooden ship modellers around? I'm just working on my first. - the Caldercraft Sherbourne Cutter. I've finished the first planking and I'm quite pleased. It resembles a boat! I'm really enjoying it. It's a long process, but a very rewarding one.

Thanks for the replies. I'm glad to see that there is some interest here in wooden ship models. Yes, Al, the cutter is an attractive ship, and had an intriguing history. I bought the Alert Cutter book from the anatomy of ships series to help me with the build, although the Alert differs slightly from the Sherbourne.

Yes jtilley, Caldercraft/jotika seem a very good company. They're a godsend to modellers in the UK as it is the much-criticised European kits which seem to predominate. The plans are good, the Sherbourne having five sheets of them. One thing I would say though, is that, although this is sold as a good beginner's kit, the instructions alone are inadequate for an absolute beginner. It is unlikely that someone would build their first ship without reference to literature or internet, but I feel the instructions could explain techniques more, rather than merely listing them chronologically.

I'm registered with drydock forums Gleason. I received some good advice there about initial kit purchases, tools and tips on techniques. It's a great place to go if you're thinking of building wood models. There's nothing like doing your first ship though. I found much of the literature about planking difficult to grasp in the abstract. If you've never done anything like it before, and I haven't any experience of woodwork, then it's hard to envisage. The beauty of double planking is that you don't have to be too accomplished the first time, as long as you end up with a fairly even surface and correct shape after a bit of sanding and filling. So you can view it as a bit of a practise. I'm just about ready to start the second planking with much more idea of how it works.

thanks
Blighty

   The real beauty of this cutter is the basic simplicity of her rig. I can see where planking the hull could be a bit of a task, with her bows as full as they are, curving the planks might be tough. Otherwise it is an excellent first wood ship model kit, challenging, but not impossible. Blighty, hope you find each step of the assembly rewarding, and satisfying.

   Very happy to see as many "wood modelers" as replied to this thread. I have to agree with jtilley, though, it is better to identify myself as a "ship modeler", without the wood or plastic qualifier. I do both, and each has its own challenges, and rewards.

Pete  ( HO scale model railroader. www.the-gauge.com )

I consider myself a "marine artist". After all, you are creating a piece of art when you build the model.

I have built from scratch as well as doing ships in bottles. Those aren't as hard as they look once you know the trcks of the craft as it were.

There are many problems as has been mentioned with some kit manufacturers. Often the materials are poor and are replaced with better quality stuff.

One problem many builders get into is selecting something way beyond their skills. I imagine more wooden clipper ship models are produced and sold than built. While impressive, honing the necessary skills take a lot of experience.

Good luck with your model. When built they are a true thing of beauty and I am glad to read that A.J. Fisher has been resurrected!!

My earlier list of reputable wood ship kit manufacturers probably should have included A.J. Fisher.  It's an extremely old firm, dating back at least to the 1940s.  (Probably earlier than that; does any Forum member happen to know when AJF was founded?)  The company has been dormant for several years, but has been resurrected quite recently through the intervention of new owners.  Though I haven't seen any of the new products in the flesh, I'm confident that they'll be excellent.

The comments that Forum members have offered regarding those hideously expensive continental European plank-on-bulkhead kits certainly ring true according to my experience.  We've thrashed this topic out in this Forum before; I fear some of my comments may have raised some hackles.  As I mentioned earlier, I know how dangerous it is to generalize about such things.  I'm certain there's a considerable range of quality among these...things.  It's equally true that people build models for lots of different reasons, and with lots of different priorities.  Those people certainly have every right in the world to buy those...things, and if they provide pleasure and satisfaction to the purchasers that's great.  Personally, I have yet to see a Mamoli, Mantua, Corel, Amati, or Artesania Latina kit that I'd consider worth carrying home from the hobby shop.

What does rankle me is the damage that, I'm convinced, those kits have done - and continue to do - to the hobby of ship modeling.  We've heard from several folks who've started such kits but never finished them.  Anybody who's ever worked in a hobby shop knows that the vast, vast majority of those kits never get built.  The majority of the people who buy them get discouraged, and the hobby shop never sees them again. 

When I was working in a hobby shop, I had several standardized pieces of advice for folks who wanted to get into wood ship modeling.  (I generally tried to steer them toward the good plastic kits first - but few of those are left on the market these days.)  Not many people listened to me, but here goes. 

One - stick with Model Shipways, Fisher, Bluejacket, and Calder kits.  (They produce genuine scale models.  The continental kits produce...well, something else.  I'm not sure what.)  Two - for your first effort, pick a relatively small ship in a relatively large scale.  (Don't start with a Victory or a Cutty Sark.  If you want to demonstrate how much patience you've got, and how much time you're willing to invest in the hobby, start with a cutter or a schooner.  You'll have a nice model on your mantle in a few months, and in the process of building it you'll have acquired all sorts of skills, knowledge, and vocabulary that will make the big ship that you're dreaming about go faster and look better.)  Three - don't expect your first model to be a world-beating masterpiece.  One of the great things about this hobby is that it lasts a lifetime.  (If I may be forgiven for making a personal reference here, the year 2006 will be my fiftieth year as a ship model builder.  If it were possible to learn everything it takes to build a really good ship model in a year or two, I would  have left the hobby a long time ago.  I stick with it because I'm constantly learning new things about it - and I like to think I'm getting better at it.)  Four - this hobby really involves two activities:  model building and reading.  Building the models opens the gate to a huge, fascinating literature about maritime/naval history and the history of maritime technology.  If you don't like to read, that's not a sin - but you'll be happier in some other hobby.

There's my less-than-two-cents-worth.  Sorry to be up on the soapbox.

Don't apologize. What you wrote is the truth. Some people get discouraged with models that are too complex.

A.J. Fisher was started in 1925 so they know a biyt about models I reckon.

Some of their plans are old and the finishing mthods suggested are outdated but the plans are still useful even now.

What does rankle me is the damage that, I'm convinced, those kits have done - and continue to do - to the hobby of ship modeling.  We've heard from several folks who've started such kits but never finished them.  Anybody who's ever worked in a hobby shop knows that the vast, vast majority of those kits never get built.  The majority of the people who buy them get discouraged, and the hobby shop never sees them again.

  I'm still trying to salvage an Arbour Models HO scale Chessapeake & Ohio H8 2-6-6-6, so I can appreciate the above quote.  I still like the quote," you don't build models of ships, you build models of parts of ships, and assemble them into a finished ship model".

By the way, Prof. Tilley, I went to your site and viewed the "Hancock".........I have a few more ship models to build before I'll post pictures.....Very Nice Work!!   (or maybe I'll stick to model railroading, and take up knitting)

Here is a pic of the underneath of the hull after the first planking. There's still a bit more sanding to do but I'm relieved it came out vaguely boat shaped

That's nice.

Any thoughts yet on how to mount/display?  This is a very good time to think that out (before having to get a drill bit or screwdriver tip in through rigging and an inelegantly placed hatch <btdt>).

One of hte best things about a wood kit is the very real tactile involvement with the kit.

Mind you, I find that process can lead me quite "astray."  A solif block trimmed out as a closed-up companionway just never looks quite right (at least while I'm buidling them <sigh>).  Worst for me are skylights, or other glass that is opaque.  My brain seems to just short-cicuit and go, "you're building everything else, why not something to 'see' through that opening--it can't be that hard, can it?"  (Bad, bad, naughty, brain <g>)

I know what you mean about the tactile involvement. You find yourself running your hands along the hull a lot, especially when you're sanding and it's smoothing out. There's also the satisfaction of the boat taking shape as the real life boat would have done. Ok, this is plank-on bulkheads and not frame, but it's pretty similar, and it takes shape in the same way.

Blighty

 

I know that I am kind of just jumping in here, but I read through your (all the above) postings and many things have hit close to home.  I am a beginner modeling in the wooden ship arena.  I have built several plastic models including the Cutty Sark.  For Christmas I got the H.M.S. Victory mfg by Constructo.  It is not for beginners or the faint of heart that's for sure.  All in all though, the hull frames are laid up, decks are on and planked and I am 1/3 through the hull planking.  It is looking pretty good in my opinion and I am pretty fussy about things looking right.  My biggest question however, since the plans and directions offer little guidance, is what do I do about the nail heads.  Should they be countersunk and puttied, or sanded off.  If they are sanded off, does that compromise the integrity of the hull planking?  I see at least a years worth of hard work to build this model and since the foundation is the secret to a proper building I feel the hull is the secret to a proper ship.  Anybody offer me any adviec or is there a place for beginners to go for tips and tricks such as this?

Thanks to anyone that would like to respond.

phrogflyer,

Not sure how to answer your myself, but if you don't get a response here, try over at www.drydockmodels.com.  The forum there is great and it's full of a bunch of wood ship model people.  Take a look at the gallery too to see some really great models.

Dave

 

Hi, are you talking about the pins used to hold the planking in place? I knocked them halfway in and detached them once the glue had cured. For the second planking I'm thinking of using notice board pins, with wide heads. You just insert the pin below the planking and the head holds it in place. I picked this up at Dry Dock forums, which is probably the best place to go to for tips and tricks like this. It's here http://forum.drydockmodels.com/

cheers
Blighty

Now that creats another question.  The kit included 2mm hull planking which they said was fine for sanding and finishing, or if you are a beginner, there is a .05mm veneer to overlay it with.  Am I supposed to be so good at the other I don't need the veneer, or do most kits provide for double layer planking.  I don't want a bunch of brass pin heads showing through my finish, but many very nice models I see in pictures have the nail holes appear to be counter sunk and filled which makes the appearance more original (in my opinion).  Aslo, I saw the article about the push pins, an Excellent idea!

Yes, that sounds like a kind of double planking. Although the Caldercraft kit uses two sets of 4mm. The first planking is done with limewood and the second with walnut. I'd definitely recommend double planking if you have the option. It means the first doesn't show, so as long as it's sanded well and filled where necessary and follows the line of the ship correctly it doesn't matter what it looks like. It's like a dry run, a kind of practise, but also gives you a better surface on which to lay the planking that will ultimately show. For beginners like me this is seems ideal.

Blighty

"Blighty" wrote:
==
Yes jtilley, Caldercraft/jotika seem a very good company. They're a godsend to modellers in the UK as it is the much-criticised European kits which seem to predominate. The plans are good, the Sherbourne having five sheets of them.
==

There seems to exist some strong reservations against European wood kit manufactures. I for myself have built some in the past. However, non of my kits have survived thus far. The only kits which become build to full existence are plastic kits. I do not know why (I was never pleased with my wood kit building outcome).

However, there exist indeed some indviduals who prefer European kits over American kits. Or better placed: they do not see any big difference in quality between American and Europeam manufactures.

You can freely register to "Seaways' Ships in Scale" online magazine forum. There you will find some older archives of discussions. They can be downloaded as ordinary text files. There are a lot of discussions about European vs. American kits.

May I point you to an European manufacturer who stands out a little bit I assume:

http://www.gk-modellbau.de/usa/index.htm

The comanpy features a different bulding technique ("true" plank on frame methods by means of using a soldering-iron and super glue; the super glue easily evaporates when in contact with the heat of a soldering iron; you can also use the technique in your projects; I made good experience with it).

Enjoy you wood kit project,
Katzennahrung

I certainly would discourage any prejudice or generalizations about wood ship kits on the basis of where they're manufactured.  To assert that American ship model kits are categorically superior to European ones would be utterly ridiculous.  The U.S. has produced more than its share of awful model kits over the decades - and Europe, of course, has a wonderful ship modeling tradition that far predates that of the U.S.  I also (once again) recognize that the products even of one manufacturer can vary quite a bit in quality.  (Some of the kits from Model Shipways have, in my opinion, been duds.)  My complaint against those continental European plank-on-bulkhead kits isn't based on where they're manufactured; its based on the fact that so many of them are lousy, over-priced pieces of junk that drive people out of the hobby.

The GK Modellbau page to which Katzennahrung has linked us is really interesting.  I've never seen a GK Modellbau kit here in the U.S.  (That's undoubtedly due at least partially to the fact that I live in a relatively small community with no big hobby shops.  But I have the impression that the company's products aren't widely known in this country.)  On the basis of the pictures on the website, however, those kits look excellent.  I don't entirely understand the construction system, but it looks like it was conceived by somebody who knows what he's doing - and understands how real ships are built.  I'm also impressed with the choice of subjects.  There are quite a few unusual, attractive small vessels in that range - exactly the sort of thing that makes a good kit for a newcomer to the hobby.  And the prices are eminently reasonable.  GK Modellbau has come up a couple of times in this forum, and if I'm not mistaken its line has grown a bit each time I've checked the website.  I hope this company succeeds - and develops a good market in the U.S.

"jtilley" wrote:
==
GK Modellbau has come up a couple of times in this forum, and if I'm not mistaken its line has grown a bit each time I've checked the website.  I hope this company succeeds - and develops a good market in the U.S.
==

I once happend to buy the "Duke Wiliam" of their kits. I did not complete it, though. However, I must honestly say: the instruction manuals are worse at such a kit price. I would have hopped to get some color images in the manual; instead they showed some (bad) black-and-white images of the construction process.

The quality of their fittings are so la-la. Okay, different strokes for different people. Other would rate it excellent, though.

The founder of GK bussines are marine architects I recall having read it somewhere. They also make models for museums. This is a sign that their ships and kits are well researched.

I think the problem with some of the European kit manufactures: some of them still do not have any email adress or internet representation. In such a case people would likely complain directly to them of their bad kits.

In the past I had some private communication with a well acknowledged European wood kit model builder. He once wrote me that the plans in the kits (European ones) are typically very good. Okay, he was used to re-draw all the plans by the aid of CAD programs and invested some more money in buying all new wood for kits (he bought wood form starting from Canada and stopping in Switzerland). The only things which he keeps from kits are the canons.

Lost the name of the medal winner, though. Does one know whether a gold medal models must represent any detailed accuracy? Or can you produce a gold medal model without research? I assume reviewers and referees of such models will typically have their eyes peeled on how the master build the model and not so much on any historical accurcy, isn't?

Regards,
Katzennahrung

Katzennahrung - I'm afraid your last question is based on an incorrect assumption.  You seem to be assuming that ship model contest judges are guided by some sort of agreed-upon standards.  No such standards exist.

Some modeling organizations (the IPMS and Naviga, for instance) have written guidelines for judges in the competitions that those organizations sponsor.  But many, many competitions are not affiliated with such organizations.  Judges in most contests are perfectly free to evaluate models on the basis of whatever criteria they think are appropriate.  The fact that some model wins a gold medal in a contest means that those particular judges thought it was better than the other models that were entered.  That's all. 

I've heard that Naviga - an extremely prestigious European ship modeling organization - has a pretty rigid set of standards for competitors in the contests it sponsors.  (Caveat:  I haven't actually seen the document in question; this is based on second-hand information.)  As I understand it, Naviga bans weathering of all sorts.  That's the sort of thing that made me decide a long time ago to quit taking part in competitions.  "Whether to weather," in my opinion, ought to be a decision left to the individual modeler.  An organization that restricts individuality and creativity in ship modeling does the hobby no good.

The situation gets particularly irritating in big contests, whose judges can't possibly be experts on every type of model entered.  Quite a few years ago I attended the IPMS national competition in a European country.  (Let's not be more specific than that.)  The winning aircraft and armor models were superb, and the winning modern warships were quite good.  The model that won the sailing ship category, in my opinion, was a piece of junk.  The builder had no idea what a sailing ship was supposed to look like - and neither did the judges.  But that modeler went home with a big trophy that looked just like the ones won by the airplanes and tanks.

In other threads of this Forum I've sounded off at irritating length about my opinions regarding ship model contests.  I won't waste space reiterating those opinions here.  I will say, though, that, having taken part (as contestant, judge, and observer) in quite a few such events over the past fifty years, I have no intention of ever being involved with a model competition again.  In my personal opinion they do at least as much damage to the hobby as they do good for it.

I agree whats been written in this post,I took a slightly different approach to wooden ship building. I did aircraft+vehicles,plastic models for 30 plus years but was always in awe of the wooden kits and was "intimidated" by them.So  I purchased a modern wood ship kit to start,a Dumas 1/20 scale PT boat and got to do some planking framing as well as working with photo etch,brass,metel,and even some basic rigging,I was pleased with the result and "hooked me on wooden boats" so my next project will be to step it up a notch".Something along the lines of what you all recomended.

"jtilley" wrote:
==
In other threads of this Forum I've sounded off at irritating length about my opinions regarding ship model contests.  I won't waste space reiterating those opinions here.  I will say, though, that, having taken part (as contestant, judge, and observer) in quite a few such events over the past fifty years, I have no intention of ever being involved with a model competition again.  In my personal opinion they do at least as much damage to the hobby as they do good for it.
==

Be happy that I am not entering any competition. You would get hit by stroke :-). In the year of 2005 I completed the following models: Heller "Nina" (40 hours), Heller "Viking Ship" (20 hours), Revell "USS Constitution" (60 hours), and Lindberg "Persian Gulf Trader" (11 hours). Two have never seen light in 2005: Heller "Galion" (aborted after 25 hours) and Revell "Bounty" (cancled after 20 hours).

Likely I will borrow a ccd camera and will take some shots and will going to post it somewhere (it is also time for me to take on work on an own homepage eventually). Then others can see that they are likely better builders than I am.

All of the completed ships have some severe flaws. However, my plans are as follows: at now I am 32 years old. When I am 51 years old (hopefully my race bike training will not kill me on the streets or sometimes a cigar) I will become a Master.

By the way: jtilley or some other experienced individual: do you you  know something bad about the "Discovery 1901" from Airfix and the Revell "Bavaria Retour Ship". A local dealer retires and sells out his kits. Too bad I saw his announce only recently and by chance (must be punishment for me since I am mostly on ebay nowadays) and most of the kits have gone. I bought the Revell "Santa Maria" yesterday. I am not sure whether he will open next week again since he is searching for a man who will continue his bussines.

Regards,
Katzennahrung
Btw: The Revell "Santa Maria" kit does not have shrouds pre-assembled of plastic. That will be a good start for the kit. Although, I will build it up as indicated by the instruction.

I'm not familiar with the Revell "Bavaria Retour Ship."  The Airfix Discovery is one of that company's oldest sailing ship kits.  I haven't seen on in many years; my vague recollection is that it's a pretty nice kit, but I suspect it's showing its age by now.

I do remember reading about one interesting feature of the Discovery.  (I think I read this in an article in Model Shipwright a long time ago.)  In the numerous photographs of her the standing rigging of the main mast looks disproportionately heavy compared to that of the fore and mizzen masts.  Reason:  the fore and mizzen standing rigging was made of wire, but that of the main mast was rope.  Several navigational instruments, including an extremely sophisticated compass, were mounted in the midships deckhouse near the mainmast; wire rigging would have messed up the readings on them.

Does any Forum member have up-to-date knowledge about the Discovery?  The very first time I went to London, back in 1978, she was moored on the north bank of the Thames between Westminster and the Tower of London.  I recall reading that she'd been moved, and had undergone some restoration, but I haven't heard anything about her recently.  She certainly deserves any attention she gets.

"jtilley" wrote:

I'm not familiar with the Revell "Bavaria Retour Ship."  The Airfix Discovery is one of that company's oldest sailing ship kits.  I haven't seen on in many years; my vague recollection is that it's a pretty nice kit, but I suspect it's showing its age by now.

Does any Forum member have up-to-date knowledge about the Discovery?  The very first time I went to London, back in 1978, she was moored on the north bank of the Thames between Westminster and the Tower of London.  I recall reading that she'd been moved, and had undergone some restoration, but I haven't heard anything about her recently.  She certainly deserves any attention she gets.
==

Hello:

The "Bavaria Retour Ship" must have an replica somewhere. I have seen printed (yesterday in the model shop) on the Revell kit box some photos of /real/ representations of her. Would be interesting to see some more photos of the replica and what Revell made in a kit  of her.

I assume you mean the "Discovery of 1901", right? To my knowledge there exists two famous Discovery sailing ships: the one of Capatin Cook and the exploration ship of around 1900. The Airfix kit box depicts the one of 1901 (with a big chimney comming out of the deck). The overall length of the Airfix ship measures around 50 cm (20").

Regards,
Katzennahrung

Right.  The Airfix kit represents the Discovery of Capt. Robert Scott, the Antarctic explorer. 

I can't recall any kits representing Cook's Discovery - though his earlier vessel, the Endeavour, is an extremely popular model subject.  Airfix, as a matter of fact, used to make an Endeavour in plastic.  It was a pretty nice, though rather simplified, kit - an interesting companion to the old Revell Bounty, which was on about the same scale.