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Card Models of Sailing Ships

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  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Pennsylvania (big state)
Card Models of Sailing Ships
Posted by Big Ole Bob on Sunday, January 1, 2006 9:27 PM

Has anyone here constructed a card model of a sailing ship. Not an undetailed small one but a large one?

Also just as important a question.  Could you possibly use the Cardstock models as a direct guide to createing a wooden model? Perhaps in balsa with the exception of a primary support structure.

Has anyone tried this? (in opposition to buying a 3 to 4 hundred dollar kit?)

B.O.B.

If you can think it. Then someone has else has also thought of it. Then someone else has tried it. Then someone else tried and completed it. Then someone else tried and proved it CANT BE DONE!
  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Sunday, January 1, 2006 9:37 PM

I've done that using the paper patterns to make plastic-stock ships.   I photo-reduced the parts to 1:350 - my favorite scale.   Things went together well.   I've even used some plastic card ships as masters for resin kits.

You shouls be able to use the card patterns for making a plank on bulkhead model.   Don't forget to allow for the thickness of the wood stock when you cut your patterns

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, January 1, 2006 10:13 PM

I've only built a few paper models - and no paper sailing ships.  But I've seen enough of them to be aware that the medium has enormous potential.  Some of the things the German and Polish manufacturers do with paper are almost unbelievable.  A couple of months ago (or thereabouts) we had a discussion here in the Forum about some photos an H.M.S. Victory that was being built from a paper kit made by a Polish company called Shipyard.  That model could stand comparison with the finest scratchbuilt ones - and certainly looked more like the real ship than any of those hideously expensive Italian or Spanish plank-on-bulkhead kits.

One thing that becomes obvious from even a cursory glance:  those things aren't for beginners.  I've been building models for 49 years, and I wouldn't want to tackle that paper Victory.  I have the impression, though, that quite a few more basic subjects are available in paper too.

I've seen some beautiful scratchbuilt models whose builders had used paper models as templates.  Plastic sheet is a particularly good material for that purpose; it lends itself to the same construction methods that the paper kit designers use.

I can't resist offering one curmudgeonly caution, though.  Balsa wood is pretty generally regarded by experienced ship modelers as the second worst material there is.  (The worst:  lead.)  Quite a few years ago the modeling fraternity got fascinated with balsa, to the point that it became the most common material sold in hobby and craft shops.  The truth is that for model builders balsa has one, and only one, real virtue:  light weight.  For builders of flying model airplanes that's absolutely crucial.  For ship modelers it's utterly irrelevant.  There's a widespread myth that balsa is "easy to work with."  That myth can only have been started by somebody who'd never tried to work with any other kind of wood.  I imagine a real expert woodcarver could get acceptable results from balsa, but for novices and most other normal humans the harder woods are easier to work with.  Balsa caves in under anything but the sharpest blade, disintegrates when sanded, doesn't bend easily without cracking, dents easily, splits easily, and soaks up finishing materials like a sponge.  Some good ship modelers use it occasionally for things like filler blocks in hulls - which won't be visible on the finished model - because it's cheap and easy to find.  But most serious scale modelers (with the big exception of the flying aircraft fraternity) regard it with contempt. 

Nowadays most decent hobby shops stock basswood in almost as many sizes and shapes as balsa.  Basswood isn't the very best modeling wood, but it's capable of doing a good job in most applications.  My suggestion to newcomers:  forget you ever heard of balsa wood.

That's my rant for this evening.  I suspect it may bring some strong contrary opinions; if so - great.  But I'm pretty confident in asserting that few serious ship modelers have any use for balsa wood.

One other point.  To those of us who can remember buying plastic airplane kits with pocket change, the concept of spending several hundred dollars for a model kit can be pretty jarring.  And all of us have to operate within the real limits of our personal and family finances.  (I wouldn't mind buying a CalderCraft 1/72-scale H.M.S. Victory, the retail price of which is about $1,000.  But with a mortgage, a car payment, medical bills, and a stepkid's student loans in the picture - forget it.)  If one considers the money spent on a ship model kit as an investment in leisure-time activity, however, the numbers start to look different.  That model that costs $200 or $300 is likely to occupy the builder for 200 or 300 hours - or quite possibly more.  Compare the per-hour investment with most other forms of leisure-time activity (video rentals, movies, and professional sporting events, for instance) and model building starts to look like a bargain. 

It's not for me to suggest how much money anybody ought to spend on his or her hobby; that needs to be a completely personal decision.  But if a modeler can handle a kit that costs $100 or so, he or she ought to ask whether putting up with less-than-the-best merchandise for the sake of saving $30 or $40 is really a good tradeoff.

Just some things to think about.  Good luck.  It's a great hobby.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Sunday, January 1, 2006 10:52 PM

Totally agree with Jtilley Balsa wood is not very good for ship modeling.Way to soft.the only thing I use Balsa for is cradles to hold my model's while I work on them.

Below this post is another post going on about the Shipyard card model's.check it out its pretty good.

Rod

  • Member since
    December 2005
Posted by MagicSteve on Sunday, January 1, 2006 11:57 PM

I have never constructed a ship model using card but I do have one of the shipyard models mentioned by Jtilley.  The one I have is of HMS Bellona (74) which is in 1/96 scale, between the sizes of the big Revell constitution and the big Heller Victory.  What the kit is composed of is a book the size and thickness of a A3 size road atlas.  Inside are some most excellent drawings and instrucitons with the parts printed on light card stock and paper.  I would be tempted to get the HMS Victory to use as a reference for doing the Heller kit.  Now that would be some perverse kit bash.

Most of these parts will have to be laminated to heavier card stock, mostly half millimeter to two millimeter thicknesses.  I have been checking some of the other sites that focus on this medium and it is important to make sure you have the correct thicknesses of the meduim.  The parts will have to be cut out with scissors, hammer and chissel, hyperdermic needels, leather work punches and whatever else is necessary to do the job. 

Building the kit involves first building an egg crate frame then covering it with an inner skin that run mostly up and down.  over this are the final printed pages with all the decoration of the ship, these run fore aft.  some modelers use some sort of expanding foam to stiffen things up, based upon some pictures and text in polish (which I do not understand)

I expect that many people doing these kits make numerous deviations with regards to materials substituting wood and aftermarket parts whenever possible, or when it is easier or more realistic.  Building the blocks and artillery out of paper may be a bit more than most modelers have patience for when they can get the parts aftermarket.  Annother polish company GPM makes wooden mast kits for the shipyard models.  These will have to be built up considerably to do the model.

I have been following the Victory thread very carefully and that gentleman is up to 17 pages of details and has the yards ready for installation.  he also did the HMS Cleopatra (38) which is absolutely beautiful.  I have seen other build ups of these kits and they also look spectacular.  The smallest of the shipyard kits is a couple small period boats (HMS Chatham) that are about 8" long.

While I do have a big kit, I certainly do not plan to just jump in with this one as a novice.  I haven't seen a built up model in the flesh, but if the photos and the kit is any indication, enormous potential is possible.

It is possible to modify the kit at fundamental levels to create other models.  Victory could be redesigned to represent the as launched ship with open galleries and balconies. 

Best of all, the shipyard kits seem to be quite modern with no reason to believe that more kits will not be published in the future.  the cost can be resonable too.

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Pennsylvania (big state)
Posted by Big Ole Bob on Monday, January 2, 2006 8:24 AM

I may also put up photos of the Cardstock to bass/balsa wood model I may attempt later. If  Dover's nina/santa maria model has a ribcage structure then I think I've found my trial run for the cardstock to wood ship kit. It's simple, small, and not extremely detailed. A perfect candidate for a trial run. That is -if- it has that ribcage structure required for plank on frame building. I May just glue it together doing the body only. To get an idea what the woodworking skills are required for a big one is. After all this is just a trial run. and yess. Ill try basswood if its available in that thin sheet style.

For Now I'll be concentrateing on the Constitution WHILE finishing up the Victory which I bug bombed with dullcoat this morning. (which means riggin's start'in soon)

B.O.B.

If you can think it. Then someone has else has also thought of it. Then someone else has tried it. Then someone else tried and completed it. Then someone else tried and proved it CANT BE DONE!
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, January 2, 2006 9:18 AM

Very interesting stuff!  I once - many years ago - bought a paper model kit for the pre-Dreadnought German battleship Schleswig-Holstein.  It was made by an excellent West German company called Wilhelmshaven Models, and contained well over a thousand parts.  I never got beyond the stage of looking at it in awe.

B.O.B. - you shouldn't have any trouble getting hold of basswood sheets or strips.  If you've got a decent hobby shop within driving distance, it almost certainly will stock the stuff.  (The model railroaders use it all the time; they gave up on balsa about forty years ago.  They often refer to basswood as simply "stripwood" or "sheetwood."  Dollhouse builders also use it.)  If your community is hobby-shop-challenged (as more and more are these days), you might see if it has any arts-and-crafts stores.  Here in Greenville, NC (hardly a major metropolis) there's a Michael's Arts and Crafts that stocks a decent assortment of basswood strips and sheets.  If all else fails, plenty of online sources sell basswood.  Micromark ( www.micromark.com ) is one firm that carries a full range of sizes and shapes. 

I know next to nothing about serious card model construction, but I can offer one tip that I learned the hard way.  For laminating parts you may be tempted to use rubber cement.  Don't.  It's wonderful stuff for lots of purposes that involve holding pieces of paper and wood together temporarily.  But it dries out and cuts loose after three to six months.  I once built a fairly sophisticated paper airplane kit with rubber cement, only to get extremely depressed when it fell completely apart.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2005
Posted by MagicSteve on Monday, January 2, 2006 10:02 AM

Before you start substituting wood for card board I recommend you first determine if you are using the card model as a reference for a scratch build project, or not.

Be careful substituting wood for card stock.  Wood is quite directional in its properties and going down to very thin veneres will likely make the model much more fragile than card would be.  That said, a lot of wood can be substituted for card board in many places that wil result in a spectacular model, using a wood venere to do the deck planking would look great, wood will also be better for making much of the deck furnature out of.

The bottom line is that these kits are designed to be built from card stock not wood.  If it was to be built from wood, if they were to be built from wood, a lot of parts would be much thicker and this would change things considerably. 

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Pennsylvania (big state)
Posted by Big Ole Bob on Monday, January 2, 2006 9:46 PM

Elmers glue & Card Stock.

I once atempted to make a 'wall clock' cardboard model that was once offered in KBtoys. I can attest to the fact that once you have some nice hardening glue pressed hard between two sheets of cardboard that it can become QUITE stiff and hard. Slather it on a stack of cardboard thats been g lued together and it gets so hard you need a dremmel tool to smooth it down.

If card stock gets that hard, and they have basswood in 1 or 2 milimeter venere sheets, I see no problem in substituting one for the other. Especially on broad surfaces or support structure. I do understand the grain and support issues though. But if you use it as abundantly as the 'eggcrate' work is on those previously posted pictures then I believe that grain support might not be such a problem. Especially onces glue has been applied. For the support structure Ild leave the original cardstock on. Just glue it on lightly to the basswod to be cut out and cut both at once (well fine cutting that is).. But as I said.

First the uss constitution.

I'm just wondering if anyone out there has atempted to do this. Use the pro quality paper model kit as the blueprint for a wooden ship? After all if your making a ship from scratch the first thing you have to do is make a cheap workable/discradable cutout prints from real blueprints. The paper model kits do that for you already.

Anyways. Later.

B.O.B

Current kit: 22" HMS VICTORY (rigging)
Next Kit: 1/95 Revell USS Constitution (collecting information making plans)
Future projects: Dover Santa Mara (cardstock to wood trial run)

If you can think it. Then someone has else has also thought of it. Then someone else has tried it. Then someone else tried and completed it. Then someone else tried and proved it CANT BE DONE!
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