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Submarine Hull Formation

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Submarine Hull Formation
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 17, 2006 3:10 PM

I must be in the right place.  I was last Missile Guidance Officer on a WW-II Sub that was fitted with a hanger for the Regulus I Guided Missile.  Then navigator on an SSBN where I played on the only full size piano that was ever installed on a submarine.  Shades of Jules Verne.  My sub the USS Tunny (SSG-282) was the only such submarine.  The book Regulus the Forgotten Weapon addresses the North Pacific Yacht Club, the beginning of our Strategic Nuclear Deterrent Patrols. 

That said, I am trying to make a scale model of the Tunny.  I have scale plans horizontal and vertical; however, the construction of the hull is beyond my current knowledge.  I have cross sections at different points along the hull; but, carving such curved surfaces is not readily available to me.  THIS IS WHAT I HOPE YOU FOLKS CAN HELP ME WITH! ! ! ! ! !

PS, The Tunny had a surface duel with one of those I boats and won.  Particularly significant since her previous patrol the torpedoes did not explode.  Durng that research I came across two Japanese I Boats that attacked the US.

One in the North that launched a seaplane to fire bomb woods in Washington State and

One off California where she surfaced and fired upon an oil refinery.

Looking forward to any responses and your continued efforts to preserve the truth.  Like: As a result of our breakingthe Japanese Code and finding a number of spies reporting ships movements out of West Coast Ports, we RELOCATED Japanese sympathizers into RELOCATION CAMPS.  They were allowed to leave the camps as long as they did not go back to the West Coast.  Many received paid education in our collages and some even faught in the war.  THERE WERE NO JAPANESE CONCENTRATION CAMPS; however, it would be an interesting question to address this same situation if another 9-11 occurs.  Mosques throughout our country are harboring Islamic Fundamentalists and those too afraid to resist such terrorist behaviors.  The FBI has been unable to breach the religious barrior in our laws to infultrate these mosques.  But that was then and this is now. 

 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Friday, February 17, 2006 3:30 PM

Since the SSG Tunny was a Gato boat to begin with, I think I would investigate the existing and/or projected Gato/Balao kits as a starting point and work from there.

If you would like I can outline my method for scratchbuilding a hull using elevation and cross-section drawings.   It is time consuming and you will need to learn some skills like mixing & pouring resins.

Back to the existing kits:

The Lionfish by Revell is 1:178 scale.   Good for the hull.  Nautilus Models makes some laser engraved wooden decks and several kinds of replacement conning towers, including some Guppys.  Iron Bottom Sound also makes some conning towers for the Revell Lionfish.

Toms Modelworks and Yankee Modelworks both make WWII era Gato/Balao kits in 1:350 scale.  They are resin & brass.   Cut way the conning tower & build replacements.  Also build the missile equipment.   This method may be quicker than starting from scratch.

Projected kits

Revell 1:72 Gato -- due 3rd quarter of 2006.  Expect it to be huge seller.  Big, good hull.  Scratchbuild your specific deltas.

Trumpeter 1:144 scale Gato (Two versions - Gato as launched and Gato with cut-down tower).  Half the size of the Revell.  Availability 2006.  Accuracy ?.  Saleability ?

 

 

  • Member since
    October 2005
Posted by CG Bob on Friday, February 17, 2006 11:37 PM
You could purchase a fiberglass hull from the Scale Shipyard, he makes the GATO/BALAO class in 1/96th, 1/72nd, and 1/48th scales.  You should also check out the SubCommittee for other information; their quarterly newsletter is always full of good stuff.
  • Member since
    November 2004
  • From: Chandler,AZ
Posted by mkeatingss on Saturday, February 18, 2006 8:50 AM

Ed, half the size of Revell's Lion fish? I would think that 1:144 would make it about 23% larger. Or, about 25 inches long, as opposed to Lionfish's 20 inches. Wouldn't it?

   If I'm wrong, I'm going to be very disappointed. I was looking forward to building a slightly larger model, before the 1:72 one gets here.

Mike K.

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Saturday, February 18, 2006 11:37 AM
 mkeatingss wrote:

Ed, half the size of Revell's Lion fish? I would think that 1:144 would make it about 23% larger. Or, about 25 inches long, as opposed to Lionfish's 20 inches. Wouldn't it?

Mike K.



I think Ed was referring to the new Revell 1/72 Gato that will be released somewhere in 2006

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Saturday, February 18, 2006 11:41 AM
 mkeatingss wrote:

Ed, half the size of Revell's Lion fish? I would think that 1:144 would make it about 23% larger. Or, about 25 inches long, as opposed to Lionfish's 20 inches. Wouldn't it?

   If I'm wrong, I'm going to be very disappointed. I was looking forward to building a slightly larger model, before the 1:72 one gets here.

Mike K.

1:144 is half the size of the 1:72 scale Revell Gato mentioned in the immediate prior paragraph (not the Lionfish)

The forthcoming Trumpeter 1:144 Gatos will be roughly 23% larger than the 1:178 Lionfish

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, February 19, 2006 4:40 PM

Good Info Ed,  My scale will be 1/8" - 1' for a model 3'3 1/2" long.

Have Gato models and laser cut of cross section (beautiful) but they do not have all the precision I need. 

Most interested in your scratchbuilding method if it can be applied to wood carving.  Obviously you realize the difficulty in forming the hull; however, your comments on working with resins concerns me. 

I checked into Guppy Sails and found that the Tunny's was unique and listed under the catagory of SSG.  The only other WW-II sub converted to Regulus was the Barbaro which had a cigarette deck, no guppy sail.  I have pictures of her with and without the hanger.  The hanger went to California for experimentation in Hyperberic Operating Rooms.  A factor I remembered and used to save my divers leg later on in my career.  HBO = hyperbaric pressures with Oxygen is still hidden, for some reason.  It cures many infections and would make unnecessary many foot and leg amputations if used.   But that's another story.

I would, indeed, like to see your outline for I am working from Vertical and Horizontal drawings as well as hull forms at various points along the hull.... of which I'm sure your familar.

  • Member since
    November 2004
  • From: Chandler,AZ
Posted by mkeatingss on Monday, February 20, 2006 10:32 AM

   1/8" = 1' is 1:96 scale. This is the scale used on most "Booklet of Ship's Plans" for submarines. For hulls (building from scratch is a major project) I'd recommend Lee Upshaw's Scale Shipyard at http://www.scaleshipyard.com/ . If you want to go straight to the sub listings go to http://scaleshipyard.com/Catalog%20Pages/submarines.html#SUB-2 , then scroll up to the top of the page. As you'll see he's got lots of hulls, in various scales. They may not seem cheap, but they're well worth the price. In fact, you may find you get more than you paid for. Lee's hulls are really works of art.

   As for detailing, you should be able to find many of the parts, for the model, at H-R Products' site:  http://www.hrprod.com/

   I'll see what I can scare up on Tunny's sail. I may be able to help, there.

Mike K.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: Connecticut
Posted by DBFSS385 on Monday, February 20, 2006 1:42 PM

Hi Shipmate or should I say Sir? LOL.. I too am an old Bubble head MM2 (SS) ( Agang not nuke) USS Bang,USS R.E. Lee and USS Lafayette.. 69 to 75. Life member USSVI Groton.. Glad to here from another sewerpipe sailor.. I give you a lot of credit for trying this project. I have done many conversions etc but never a scratch build. I do have good news though. Yankee Modelworks which is an excellent Resin kit Company is doing a whole series of Guppys in 1/350 scale. They are covering almost all the hull and sail types, with these I'm certain that your SSG can be done with one of these kits. They are due out before Summer this year. I bet you thought my good news was that I found a excellent insurance company that will save me $100s... Hee hee..

Keep us advised on your project.. Hey the Teddy Roosevelt had a full size shuffleboard installed in sherwood forrest..

 

Be Well/DBF Walt
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: Connecticut
Posted by DBFSS385 on Monday, February 20, 2006 1:52 PM

Sorry I forgot Yankee does a pretty good Gato and a better Balao boat in 1/350, Toms no longer is doing theirs and Pit Road Combat Sub does a fantastic 1/350 Gato with later "Mare Island" fairwater and beautiful detail in 1/350. All are resin kits.

I am lookin forward to YMWs new Guppys.. BTW Pit Road Combat Sub also do a beautiful Halibut, SSN 571, a 598 boomer, and Grayback all in 1/350 scale as well as a new Seawolf SSN 21.

Be Well/DBF Walt
  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: San Diego
Posted by jgonzales on Monday, February 20, 2006 4:19 PM

"As a result of our breakingthe Japanese Code and finding a number of spies reporting ships movements out of West Coast Ports, we RELOCATED Japanese sympathizers into RELOCATION CAMPS.  They were allowed to leave the camps as long as they did not go back to the West Coast.  Many received paid education in our collages and some even faught in the war.  THERE WERE NO JAPANESE CONCENTRATION CAMPS; "

I cannot let this misinformation stand unchallenged. I grew up nextdoor to Joe Tanabe, Veteran of WWII. This American Citizen of Japanese descent fought with the 442nd in Italy, WHILE HIS WIFE WAS FORCED TO REMAIN IN AN AMERICAN CONCENTRATION CAMP. Their property was taken from them, NEVER TO BE RETURNED. His wife and he remained loyal to the United States despite their mistreatment. These good and decent people passed away not too long ago, but I will not abide their memory being railroaded by persons who do not wish to face the truth of our country's history - that despite our good intentions, we occasionally FALTER in upholding the values of our founding fathers.

I am proud to be an American, warts and all. It is only in the light of truth that we can appreciate the sacrifices made by so many, no matter the color of skin or ethnic background. If I offend anyone with this statement, let me assure you this is the last I will say on the matter.

Jose Gonzales

Jose Gonzales San Diego, CA
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: Connecticut
Posted by DBFSS385 on Monday, February 20, 2006 8:53 PM

Hi Jose,

I'm sure many here feel as you do. I know I am ashamed of what happened in WW2 in regards to Japanese and German as well as Communist & Nazis Americans etc as well as some religious groups. But I have found it wise not to Monday morning Quaterback when I haven't walked in their shoes..( I.E. This situation and the Atomic bomb attacks etc) It was a different time being run by different standards,, Unfortunitly for them they are not the standards that we today like to believe we have.. You must try to remember our Country sanctioned hateing the Japanese and Nazis with good reason.. And because of our Countries actions then you and I have the freedom to debate it today.

It was World War and unfortunitly drastic actions had to be taken to insure security at home.They may have been wrong actions but they were needed actions on the whole. The Japanese race lost much of it's credibility in the USA after Pearl Harbor.. Talk to a WW2 Vet and you will understand.

Be Well/DBF Walt
  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 11:36 AM
 submariner wrote:

Good Info Ed,  My scale will be 1/8" - 1' for a model 3'3 1/2" long.

<<SNIP>>

I would, indeed, like to see your outline for I am working from Vertical and Horizontal drawings as well as hull forms at various points along the hull.... of which I'm sure your familar.

The method I use was shown me by Jon Warneke of Iron Shipwright.   I have found it applicable to smaller models, including 1:192 (1/16 per foot) small craft.    I tried it on a 1:96 scale (1/8 per foot) US O-class sub, but it didn't work too well.

You need to have the elevation and plan view plans, as well as the hull cross-sections.   Copy these to the desired scale.   Using contact cement, attach the elevation plan to a piece of 30 or 40 thou styrene..  Cut out.  Call this the keel.

Next apply the hull cross-section lines to more sheet styrene.   Cut out, being sure to adjust the width of the part for the thickness of the keel.   Call each of these ribs.  Cement the ribs to the keel at their location according to the plan.   Brace as required.

Do this for each rib on both sides of the keel.

Wrap the hull with masking tape.  Leave a hole in the top.  Mix and pour two-part resin into the wrapped hull.   Fill it with several pours to keep from developing too much heat.   When hard, remove the masking tape and sand the resin back to the ribs.   Fill holes with your favorite putty.   Sand & fair the putty to the hull contour.  

Apply the deck plan copy to a piece of plastic and attach it to the top of the hull..   Putty as required.  Apply surface details as required

The method I settled on when building my 1:96 scale O-class is best secribed as a version of the classical ship modelers bread & butter method.   I applied copies of the butt lines to 1/4 inch thick basswood.   I cut them out to the lines and laminated them together.   I then sanded the hull smooth, fairing all the sheets together..

Your desired project is so large, I think I'd start with a commercial fiberglass R/C hull as mentioned previously.

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2004
  • From: Chandler,AZ
Posted by mkeatingss on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 1:47 PM

   To continue my earlier comments (still ignoring the political discussion) I'd like to make a few observations. First of all, Tunny was a Gato class boat. If you can wait till November, and don't mind going to a larger scale, (Bigger is better, you know) Revell is coming out with a Gato. She's bigger than 1:96. She'll be about 4 feet 3 inches long. In addition, there should be a ton of after market stuff for her.

   Using it would be a savings in time, and (maybe) money. Tunny never had her hull modified to Guppy specs, so few modifications would be necessary. You will have to redo the deck. But, going from scratch, you'd have to do it anyway. Since Tunny was from the EB drawings, the anchor is on the correct side and the limber hole pattern should be pretty close.

   I'd say, the sail and missile hanger will be your biggest challenges. And, I may be able to help with the sail. Looking at the drawings and pictures, I've found, her sail looks to be very close to the standard EB style sail. Although, one picture seems to show the last 6 or 8 feet of the after end of the sail being chopped off and the edge dropping straight down to the deck.

   I've, also, got drawings that can help you to build an EB sail.

   If you're interested in the drawings, or would like to see the pictures, drop me an email at mkeastingss@cox.net . I'll be happy to email whatever I've got, that you might want, to you.

Mike K. 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, February 27, 2006 12:24 PM

Mike, apparently this system will not allow me to use your email address directly.  I sent you the following but it was rejected:

Really appreciate your sharing your thoughts on my very special project.

To date, I have obtained a lasercut wood plaque of the GATO Class "TunnyModelProject.jpg attachment.
 
    Understanding the changes "Gato-Tunny.jpg" attachment you see that the external picture is relatively clear, if not simple.  I was thinking of modifying the already mounted lasercut first as an approach to the actual project.
 
    Forming the hull is the major blockage.  Basically my knowledge.  As you can see in the "HullPlans.jpg" attachment, the forms are all contained in the single multiple depiction in the lower left.  I have expanded them and show
various cross sections to the right.  This is a poor picture; however, it represents the drawings I have which are all to scale.  As you know, cutting the horizontal and vertical blocks is simple.  It's that darn hull.    I haven't yet given up the carving for the mold / frame construction you have suggested.
 
    It's interesting to see what the general public believe the GatoClass-2.gif attachment looks like.  The SSG conversion removed an engine, expanded the pump room to include Missile Control Center and added an extra JP-2 fuel tank along with hanger and missile rails plus launcher.  The first of my models will be just the SSG Tunny with hangar door closed; however, it will also include modifications that I, as Assistant Engineer, Ensign, personally installed.  The second model will have the hangar door open with one missile on launch rail with exhaust diffuser raised; and, the second missile visible upside down in the hangar.  Of course I will have the Trounce Radar mast raised and I'm particularly sensitive to the Plexiglas dome on the bridge.  I have a scar on my scalp to insure I don't forget that feature.
 
   
Really appreciate the comeback, Ed.  I look forward to hearing from you.
By the way, if you are interested, I have put together some stories depicting what it was like onboard Tunny during her 'North Pacific Patrols'.  Such patrols were lovingly called North Pacific Yacht Club members and later
became the first of the Strategic Nuclear Deterrent Patrols.  These patrols resulted in their own patrol pin and have been attributed only to the Nuclear Powered Ballistic Missile firing submarines, the SSBNs.  That is the reason for the book  REGULUS, The Forgotten Weapon. 
 
Your emails to me are coming through 5X5. 
JimL (submariner)
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: PDX, OR
Posted by Umi_Ryuzuki on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 11:45 AM

Here is how I typically build hulls. I did a German type VII, a while back, this way also.

http://groups.msn.com/ModelersAndHobbyForum/typicalshiphullconstruction.msnw

Copy the frame plans as many times as you want frames, then fold a copy of the plan in half, and cut out each frame line you want. when you unfold it, it will be symetrical for each side. Number it, and then fold cut and number the rest. Spray mount all the paper frame cut outs to styrene,  balsa, or plywood and start cutting. Smile [:)]

The T-103 below is also a scratch build, but more of a box. Wink [;)]

 

Nyow / =^o^= Other Models and Miniatures http://mysite.verizon.net/res1tf1s/
  • Member since
    November 2004
  • From: Chandler,AZ
Posted by mkeatingss on Wednesday, March 1, 2006 2:35 PM

My Bad!! Wrong email address. Try mkeatingss@cox.net I don't know where the extra "S" came from. Bad typing, probably.

 The sail drawings, I've made, have scales on them, so that they can be scaled up, or down, on your printer, to get the scale you want.

Now, try to email me. I'll reply with a set of the EB sail drawings. Then you can see if they're usable for your model.

 

Mike K

  • Member since
    November 2004
  • From: Chandler,AZ
Posted by mkeatingss on Thursday, March 2, 2006 11:00 AM

   OK. I've got seven photos and three drawings of Tunny. One drawing (by Jim Christley) shows the "duct keel".

    Some are pretty large files, and would have to be sent in separate emails (Bandwidth, you know). Let me know if you can use them.

 

Mike K.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 3, 2006 3:25 PM

I never have enough drawings or photos as I get into museum quality reconstruction.  All would be greatly appreciated.  In turn I'd like to send you my MEMORIES of SSG Patrols on the Tunny.  If you send anything to my home address, your efforts will be reembursed.  I don't know how to send my address if my last e-mail attempt doesn't get through. 

For other readers of finescale I would like to draw there attention to the previous entry by Mui..... What a beautiful and clear description of his method for constructing complex hull forms using available hull drawings.  Although I would like, initially, to carve the Tunny (SSG-282), a long term project to to install motors and mechanism within the model to make it demonstrate it unique capability:  Open hangar door, Ram Regulus Missile to Launch Rail, then withdraw and close door.  Working with the shell method of hull forming, this method would probably be better than a solid carved model.  I learn from you guys.  Thank you.

Submariner

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 3, 2006 3:39 PM

What a beautiful and clear presentation of your method for constructing complex hull forms.  Thank You Umi, very much.  It has also given me ideas and examples for documentation of my project which I hope will be entered into a Navy Museum.  I'm afraid time is my driving factor.  Much information and experiences are being lost as my shipmates and I head toward the final dive.  Your interest spears us on. 

FYI (for your information) The Tunny in her original life as an SS - Diesal Electric Hunter Killer during WW-II had a dual on the surface with a Japanese I class boat.  Torpedos were fired and Tunny won.  Sounds like a simple episode; however, our torpedoes were not working at that time and the I Class boats were bigger, faster, and equipped with the most powerful and longest range torpedoes  The Long Lance Torpedoes.  Such torpedoes were cut in half and made into Kamakazi submarines at the end of the war........ so much history is being preserved by your interest and research. 

Again, many thanks Umi.  It's truly a pleasure to resurrect memories that mean so much yet are held by so few.

Submariner

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 3, 2006 4:04 PM

Hi Walt.  My last project was hunting down and saving the one and only full size piano ever installed onboard a submarine.  It sure wasn't anything like when we DBF sailors plied the seas.

The Steinway Piano will be installed in a new exhibit in Washington DC Shipyard Navy MUseum branch  Cold War Annex, under Boomers and Fast Attack section where the Crew's Mess of the USS Thomas A. Edison (SSBN-610) will be recreated with the piano as it's center point.

What the average citizen doesn't know about our Silent Service! ! ! A glimpse can be found in the book and video BLIND MAN'S BLUFF.   I'll keep my eyes open for that Resin kit Company.  THank you for the info.

Submariner/dbf

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