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Just got my new Heller Soleil Royal

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  • Member since
    February 2006
Just got my new Heller Soleil Royal
Posted by Grymm on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 8:58 AM

Wow!  This model is the most incredible, and confusing model I've ever seen.  The detail is incredible, and the build itself is going to be daunting.  We won't even talk about the instructions.  They're in French, but with an English translation in the back.  I can already see that rigging is going to be an issue.

So, with that, I would greatly be forever thankful to any of the fine modellers on the forum who can give me links, ideas, pictures, any help at all with this.  This is my first build on this level of model.  Rigging, especially the ratlines (I guess that's what they're called, I'm lousy with ship lingo), are going to be difficult for me.  So any links would be the greatest thing that could be done for me.

I'm finishing up the Consitution for my boy's room, and I'll be ordering the Heller La Reale in the next few days as a side project when I need to take a break from the Royal.  But, what I'm going to try to do is put together a picture gallery of my progress.  But, I will warn, I'm not a master modeller and it won't be perfect....

Here I go on an insane build....

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 12:01 PM

Hooo boy....We've discussed this kit several times in the Forum.  Here are links to three of those threads:

http://www.finescale.com/FSM/CS/forums/559820/ShowPost.aspx

http://www.finescale.com/FSM/CS/forums/565324/ShowPost.aspx

http://www.finescale.com/FSM/CS/forums/571961/ShowPost.aspx

 

You'll see that there's some divergence of opinion about this kit - but everybody acknowledges that it has some serious problems in terms of historical accuracy.  My own, personal opinion is that it doesn't meet the definition of the term "scale model," and in honesty I can't recommend it.  

 

I'm not, however, suggesting that anybody refrain from building it just because I don't like it.  I firmly believe that such decisions ought to be entirely for the individual modeler to make.  But a project like this takes a long time - probably a couple of years, at least.  I vividly remember when I bought mine (at a price that was pretty staggering for a starving grad student), poured hundreds of hours of work into it, and discovered the numerous major inaccuracies in the kit when I was almost finished with it.  I felt like I'd been ripped off - and I don't think any modeler deserves that.  I wish somebody had warned me.

 

One point on which everybody seems to agree:  the English-language instructions are a scandal.  (Caveat:  I'm assuming the ones in Grymm's kit are the same ones that came with mine.  Maybe Heller fixed them, but on the basis of what other Forum members have said I don't think so.)  That document seems to have been written by somebody who neither understood French nor had attempted to build the model.  The rigging instructions - French and English both - are especially awful.  The people who designed this kit were superb artisans, but they didn't understand rigging.  (One of the kit's most ridiculous errors is its failure to provide any means of attaching the yards to the masts.  Nobody with even the most basic understanding of how a sailing ship works would make a blunder like that.)  To rig this model really requires some outside reading.  I recommend R.C. Anderson's The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast,  which is available in a low-priced paperback edition from places like Model Expo ( www.modelexpoonline.com ).

 

Another problem that's pretty much beyond argument:  the blocks and deadeyes don't work.   In a sense that isn't Heller's fault.  Injection-molded styrene is wonderful stuff, but it does have its limitations.  A block or a deadeye, by definition, has a groove around its circumference and at least one hole through it.  Styrene plastic has to be cast in rigid molds, and a rigid mold physically can't produce an object with a groove around it and a hole through it.  The kit blocks and deadeyes just about have to be replaced with aftermarket parts.  Several companies sell them; Model Expo has wood ones, and I'm a big fan of the britannia metal fittings sold by Bluejacket ( www.bluejacketinc.com ).  Unfortunately they're not cheap.  A reasonably full outfit of aftermarket rigging fittings for this model probably will cost more than the kit.  (That expense can, however, be spread out over a long time.  No need to buy all the blocks and deadeyes at once.)

 

Beyond that, I'll let the comments I made in those other Forum threads stand.  Please read what other members have said as well, and draw your own conclusions.  Bottom line:  in some ways it's a beautiful kit.  I once saw it described in an ad as "the gem of the plastic kit industry," and in some ways I agree.  As a scale model it has some pretty serious flaws.  Just how serious they are needs to be determined by the individual modeler - with eyes wide open. 

 

Anyway, good luck.  It's a great hobby.

 

   

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 1:23 PM

Hmmmm.   Interesting.   While I would agree that, for the historical afficianado, discovering the inaccuracies you describe would be very disconcerting.   But at the same time someone who is that "into" their models, the challenge of making it as accurate as possible would make up for a lot of the deficiencies.

As for me, I build for the enjoyment.  My focus in every day life is stronger and more refined when I work on models.   The Royal, for all its faults, is still beautiful.  My son went crazy when he saw it.  We're both into the old sailing vessels.   He can't wait to help me with it.  And that makes this kit, for me, the best kit in the world.

I'll be getting both the La Reale and Victory in the near future, before their prices start rising.  I've read they are much more accurate.   But then, of course, accuracy is always in question when it comes to a model kit.  There are things designers miss, and that they simply cannot do.  I'll still get my enjoyment, and the time mentoring my son.  That's what's important, to me, at least.

Thank you for the references for rigging and the sites to go to for the aftermarket parts you mentioned.  Though, I will probably try to use the parts with the kit first.   I'm stubborn that way.  

All in all, I'm impressed with the kit.  The level of detail is incredible, and I'll be pulling my hair out after painting my 50th cannon, but the end result will be beautiful.  I intend on using another skill of mine for the stern castle.  I'm experimenting with the plastic right now.  I will be doing all the gold sculpture with gold leaf.  Polished, it should look incredible.

The biggest concern I have is the rigging.  It will be a problem for me.  I've always had a problem making sure all the lines are taught.  And let's not even discuss the ratlines.  The jig included is a nice helper, but I'm unsure about how to tie off each horizontal rope, and tying off the end....I'm just not too up on it, though I will have to be.   It'll come to me eventually.

Thanks again.  I'll be posting pics as I do my work.  I'm not a master at this mind you.  You'll probably see some rough around the edges work from my 12 year old boy.  But those rough edges are memories for me to remember years from now.   But I will be posting some pics of how "Mr. Average" with the limited budget/time does it.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 1:56 PM

Grymm - we're on the same page.  Each modeler needs to set his/her priorities.  I just don't want to see anybody go into an enormous project like that without knowing what he/she is getting into.

The Heller Victory and La Reale are indeed better kits.  (This Forum contains several threads dealing with the former.)  I especially like La Reale.  I'm no expert on French galleys, but it certainly matches the drawings and artwork I've seen - and the "carved" decorations are just as well-executed (and almost as numerous) as those of the Soleil Royal.

Unfortunately La Reale seems to be out of production; if you find one my suggestion is to grab it.  The "new" Airfix 1/100 Victory is a repackaging of the Heller one.  One point to consider:  folks who've bought the Victory recently report that the plastic is brittle and prone to serious warping.  That wasn't always the case.  If I were in the market for a Heller Victory I'd try to find an older one - either in an old, well-stocked hobby shop, on the Web, or at a flea market or auction.

Regarding the kit blocks and deadeyes vs. aftermarket replacements - there's no need to make any decisions about that at the moment.  But be warned:  the only way to make the kit parts work would be to file a groove around every one of them.  And there are several hundred.

As for ratlines - we've discussed that subject in the Forum several times too.  My own opinion, based on 50 years of ship modeling, is that the Great Ratline Problem is a hoax perpetrated on innocent consumers by ship model kit manufacturers.  Rigging ratlines to scale actually isn't hard.  It takes a fair amount of time, but nowhere near as much as many people seem to think - and probably not much longer than using any of those jigs and other gadgets would take.   If you haven't started the kit yet, you're months away from having to worry about ratlines.  When you get to that point, you may want to look over this Forum and see how other folks have dealt with the problem.  It really doesn't need to be intimidating.  If you can put all those guns together, you have the necessary dexterity to rig ratlines. 

Regarding gold leaf - I tried it on my Soleil Royal, and didn't like it.  (Admittedly I built the kit about 25 years ago, and some new products have come on the market since then.)  I found there were a couple of major problems.  First, in order to work properly the gold leaf itself has to be laid on a smooth coat of sizing, plus the adhesive varnish - and each additional coat of anything, of course, tends to obscure the detail of those beautiful castings.  Second, though gold leaf is extremely thin (about a millionth of an inch, as I understand it), I found that the tiny compound curves on those Heller parts were too much for it.  The finished product had a slightly powdery appearance - not the shiny, shimmering, metallic look I had in mind.  When I compared a trial run with gold leaf to a similar sample of Humbrol gold enamel, the Humbrol won out:  it actually looked considerably brighter, smoother, and more metallic. 

The nicest-looking gold hobby paint I've ever encountered was made by a now-defunct British company called Rose Miniatures.  It came in two parts:  a small vial of metallic powder and a bottle of amber-colored varnish.  The modeler mixed the two together, and the results were great.  Unfortunately I haven't been able to find anything of that nature for many years.  I've found "gold powder" and varnish in art supply stores, but it's all been considerably coarser than the old Rose product.  The gold paints made by firms like Humbrol and Testor's, though, are actually mighty good.  Maybe you'll have better luck with gold leaf than I did, but I do suggest doing some samples with various other products and comparing the results before you commit yourself.

If you have a twelve-year-old who's interested in ship modeling, you're an extremely lucky man.  My efforts to get my stepkids interested in model building - or any other constructive leisure-time activity - were among my more dismal failures.  However that model comes out (and I suspect it will be spectacular), every hour you and your son spend on it will be an hour well spent - and an hour I'll envy.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: Rhode Island
Posted by oz1998 on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 3:13 PM
 Grymm wrote:

As for me, I build for the enjoyment.  My focus in every day life is stronger and more refined when I work on models.   The Royal, for all its faults, is still beautiful.  My son went crazy when he saw it.  We're both into the old sailing vessels.   He can't wait to help me with it.  And that makes this kit, for me, the best kit in the world.

Hi Grymm,

That's a great approach to have with this hobby. I got back into the hobby a few years ago after a 25 year hiatus. It does indeed help "center" yourself. I'm very glad I got back into it. The main thing is to build what you want and have fun doing it. That's all that matters unless you are building something for a client or museum. Sorry I can't be of much help to you on the kit, I build mostly WW I and WW II  ships.  I do have the Heller Victory in my stash, taunting me to take it on some day. Smile [:)] I'm sure I can handle it, but not sure I want to commit to a 2 to 3 year build at this point.

Building the kit with your son is a wonderful thing. My Dad never went in much for modeling, but I did build a sailing ship with my Mom when I was a kid. We built the old Revell Charles W Morgan whaler together. Even though I am now in middle age, I never forgot the experience. I'm sure your son won't either. It's such a pleasant memory, that I happened to see the exact kit we built on eBay. I just HAD to get it for nostaglia reasons. I don't know if I'll ever build it, but just seeing the kit makes me smile.

Good luck and have a great time ! You're creating a great memory.

Ted

 

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Slovakia
Posted by SKorecko on Thursday, February 23, 2006 4:16 AM
 jtilley wrote:

Unfortunately La Reale seems to be out of production; if you find one my suggestion is to grab it.



La Reale de France is not out of production. I saw it a week ago in local hobby shop together with some other Heller sailing ships (unfortunately, the one I'm interested in  (Royal Louis) was not there – that’s why I started another thread in this forum).  La Reale is also in actual Heller catalog, which can be found at http://www.heller.fr/flottant.pdf.

 

Btw. another Heller sailing ship kit, the frigate Belle Poule, has new airfix-style instructions. They are far better than old Heller ones. I hope that another Heller sailing ships will come with new instructions, too.

Stefan.
  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:53 AM

I am so glad I came to this site.   Everyone is just great.

La Reale and Victory.  I found the originals of both and will be getting them for later projects.  I'll most likely start on Reale when I need to take a break from Royal.  Painting the Royal is something I look forward to, since that is my forte'.  And I completely agree.  I will be working on the Hull for many months to come.  In that time, I'm going to research rigging techniques.  You guys have been a great help.

I feel I am very fortunate, sort of.  I'm a partially disabled veteran and I'm back in college.  So I find myself with 3-6 hours a day free (well, after house cleaning...don't want the wife getting on to me) to work my hobby. 

I did WWII ships a very long time ago.  For some reason though, I didn't get the same kind of feeling like I get when I work on the sailing vessels of old.  It's really hard to describe.   I guess it's just me.

I'll be posting from time to time.  I'm finishing up the Constitution for my boy's room.  After that is an oil landscape of the smokies for my wife.  THEN I'll finally get to start the Royal.   I'll put up pics as I'm working on it.  Just don't laugh too hard when you see some of my amatuer work.  I don't go into the incredible detail like all of you master modellers, and believe me, I envy you for your skill and patience, but I'm happy with what I do.

Thanks again, and you can be sure I'll have a bunch of questions for you...

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 23, 2006 10:24 AM

It will take a while, but here's how it should look.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, February 23, 2006 10:49 AM

I couldn't get the link in SKorecko's post to work - but the problem may be with my obsolescent home computer.  I'll try again later today at the office.  Anyway - the current availability of La Reale is good news.  I've got one in the attic, awaiting my attention (so many ships, so little time...).  My recollection of it is that it's a beautiful kit in almost every respect.  The only significant problem I can recall concerns the oars, where Heller got a little lazy.  The "handles" on the oar looms, as I remember, are molded as simple ribs, with no openings that an oarsman could grab.  Shaving off the ribs and making scale handles wouldn't be difficult - until one starts counting the oars.  A long time ago I had a couple of ideas for solving that problem. If any of them works I'll do another post.

I continue to suggest:  if you find a Heller Reale, you want one, and you can afford it - buy it.  I'm not clear on the precise state of affairs regarding Heller, Humbrol, Airfix, and the intricate relationship among them, but I have the impression that Heller kits may become harder to find in the near future.  Even now the company catalog is a shadow of what it was once.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Slovakia
Posted by SKorecko on Friday, February 24, 2006 2:33 AM
 jtilley wrote:

I couldn't get the link in SKorecko's post to work - but the problem may be with my obsolescent home computer.

Here is the link again, now in "workable" format:

http://www.heller.fr/flottant.pdf

Catalog is in pdf format so the Adobe Reader (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html) is required. I think that it works also on very old computers (Pentium I, MS Windows 95).

About 20 Heller sailing ship kits are in production now - good ones and bad ones, too. I have build only one of them – The Spanish galleon in 1/200 scale. I guess that it is one of these early Heller ships. It is a nice model, but I’m afraid that it’s not very accurate and realistic (for example, I have never seen any picture of Spanish galleon with oars – except of the box of this kit :-) ).


  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Friday, February 24, 2006 8:34 AM
All I can say is to not try to be perfect with the build and have fun.  Overall, it isn't a bad kit, just very challanging.

Scott

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Switzerland
Posted by Imperator-Rex on Friday, February 24, 2006 8:46 AM
Tilley, if SKorecko's link still doesn't work for you, go to heller's webpage (http://www.heller.fr/default_uk.htm), move your cursor to the images of ships in the middle of the page, and from there select "download catalogue NAVY-SAILING SHIPS". The file is 4,9Mo big so be patient while your web browser is downloading it: it takes some time depending on your internet connexion speed...

Some web browsers choose to show you the file within the browser instead of downloading it; in either case you have to wait until the entire file has been completely downloaded. Maybe you didn't wait long enough...

Hope this helps! Regards,
Chris
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Switzerland
Posted by Imperator-Rex on Friday, February 24, 2006 8:48 AM
Oh, and vapochilled, I've got a little question for you:

how do you clean your kit? or do you even clean it? would anybody have some good suggestions?
  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Friday, February 24, 2006 9:24 AM
 vapochilled wrote:

It will take a while, but here's how it should look.

 

Wow!  All I can say is I envy your skill.  You guys are just incredible with the hobby.  I consider myself "good" (take that term lightly though), but the pic you posted is downright beautiful. I do have some questions....okay, I have a ton of questions.  

I've noticed a variety of paint schemes that have been used.  I've seen the blue with the off-white, off yellow.  I've seen black at the waterline with white below the waterline.  I've seen just a lot of different interpretations.  What is considered most historically accurate?

I've also thought about closing off some of the guns, simply because of the daunting task of assembling and painting all the guns.  But, my son won't let me.  He loves all the guns and gave me the classic puppy dog pout and I just melted.   So I have a lot of gunwork ahead of me. 

Now, the biggest area I'm going to have trouble is with the rigging.  I've simply never done this kind of work before.  I learn fast, and I don't cut corners, so I know that I"ll ultimately be fine.  But, would it be possible to start exchanging some emails?  I don't want to be a bother, but I would really appreciate a "mentor" of sorts to help me get going with the rigging/ratlines....

I should be done with the Constitution for my son's room this weekend.  After I get an oil painting out of the way and take a breather, I'm starting on the guns and prelim work on the hull.  I'll post some pics then...

There is one added benefit from this kit.  One that makes me really happy.  My son was holding one of the hull halves, looking it over carefully.  He then asked the question "what's this for?".  What followed turned into a history lesson, my son gleefully searching the web for information on the ship.   He's learning.  If nothing else, if this build turns into a catastrophe and I go bald pulling my hair out, I already consider it a success because it sparked an interest in my son to learn.  Next will have to be the Victory and the Battle of Trafalgor.

Thanks guys....you're helping make this kit a lot more fun for both me and my son.  

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Friday, February 24, 2006 9:28 AM
Oh, I forgot to add.  On the subject of Gold Leaf.  My wife is big into crafts (scrapbooking, tole painting) and turned me onto a type of "liquid" gold leaf.  I tried it out on some old parts I had laying around that had a bit of detail to them.  The "liquid leaf" did not obscure the detail, and was polishable once it was dry.  It works quite nicely.  Just don't polish it to much, or the shine will look very out of place on the model.  I was able to pick some up at my local Hobby Lobby.  They have several types of gold and some silver tones also.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, February 24, 2006 10:01 AM

That makes sense.  Technically, "gold leaf" comes in sheets of genuine gold, about a millionth of an inch thick.  It's applied (usually with a dry, soft brush) to a surface that's been prepared with a sort of primer coat (gold size) and a coat of varnish, which is left to dry almost completely before the leaf is applied.  (The varnish, in effect, forms an adhesive.)  Real gold leaf is quite expensive.  There are various "patent leaf" substitutes that look almost identical (in fact my eye can't tell the difference), and are applied in the same way.  I've tried several of them for model-building purposes and, as I mentioned earlier, just haven't been particularly impressed.  Some other modelers have had better luck with the stuff.

"Liquid leaf" is, in effect, a gold-colored paint.  It consists of metallic particles (whether they're real gold or not I have no idea - but I rather doubt it) suspended in a vehicle of some sort to make them brushable.  Several brands are on the market.  In terms of their resemblance to real gold, they're getting better all the time.  So are the metallic hobby paints, from companies like Testor's, Humbrol, and Floquil.  My suggestion is to experiment with several.  Consider the different color shades available, the way they handle in the brush, and how they look when they're dry.  Then pick the one you like best.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, February 24, 2006 11:36 AM

SKorecko - The office computer (with fiber optics) had no trouble with the link.  I hadn't seen a Heller catalog for a couple of years.  If I'm not mistaken, the ship section of this new one is a good bit larger.  Apparently quite a few of the old Heller sailing ships are seeing the light of day again.  I confess I have mixed emotions about that.  The Victory and Reale are two of the finest plastic kits ever; they should never be allowed to disappear from the market.  On the other hand, some of those older Heller sailing ships are, in terms of scale accuracy, pretty awful. 

I think I just may detect a slight increase in the popularity of plastic sailing ship kits.  That's great news.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 24, 2006 12:08 PM

Have to confess, she's not mine! I envy Maurices's(the builder) skill though, he's currently working on his second heller victory!

http://www.chumster.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83&mforum=bobbie

As for cleaning, I think it has to be kept clean, once dirty it is going to be a PITA to clean a ship like that.

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Slovakia
Posted by SKorecko on Friday, February 24, 2006 12:30 PM
 jtilley wrote:

...If I'm not mistaken, the ship section of this new one is a good bit larger.  Apparently quite a few of the old Heller sailing ships are seeing the light of day again. ...



I think that Heller is the biggest producer of plastic sailing ships all over the world now. A few months ago I thought that it is also the best producer. That every sailing ship kit from Heller is accurate representation of original.  Then I came to this forum and realized that the truth is ... very different :-( .
 

This thread is about Soleil Royal, so I apologize to be a bit out of topic. To correct it slightly I add a link to finished Soleil Royal from one German modeling site:

http://www.modellversium.de/galerie/artikel.php?id=289


And there is also Victory made by the same modeler (I feel I’m out of topic again :-) ):


http://www.modellversium.de/galerie/artikel.php?id=621

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, February 24, 2006 1:43 PM

SKorecko is probably right:  in terms of sheer numbers, Heller has the biggest current line of plastic sailing ship kits.  For a sobering experience, take a look at the Revell Monogram website.  There was a time when Revell was the world's leader in sailing ship kits.  The current catalog contains two - both representing the ship, one forty years old, the other fifty.  The Revell Germany ship catalog is a little more impressive, but not much.  All the sailing ship kits in it are at least thirty years old.

I'd be reluctant to dub any manufacturer "the best."  All of them have evolved over the decades; their 1970s kits are (with some notable exceptions) better than their 1950s kits.  The best Heller products can stand comparison with any in the world; the worst are junk.  The same goes for Revell.  The best of the Airfix kits (I nominate the Wasa) are excellent - certainly superior, in terms of scale accuracy, to the weakest of the Heller and Revell ones.

If I absolutely had to give overall ratings to sailing ship kit ranges, the one I'd probably rate highest is the defunct Japanese company Imai.  Its sailing ship line was fairly small, and appeared over a relatively brief time span.  (There's not much variation in quality among Imai kits.  Nearly all of them date from the late seventies.)  Unfortunately the company went out of business a long time ago.  Quite a few of its kits are turning up again under other labels (Aoshima and Academy).  The bad news is that the larger reissued Imai kits (such as the Cutty Sark - the best rendition of that ship in kit form, in my opinion) are being sold for horribly high prices.

In the tiny community of styrene sailing ship enthusiasts all eyes are on the Russian manufacturer Zvezda.  Its line of sailing ships is small, and most are reboxings of other companies' products.  But Zvezda just released a brand new model of a medieval cog that, according to several folks who've bought it, is a fine kit.  It's also one of those extremely rare birds:  an excellent sailing ship kit for beginners.  Let's hope it's a success, and that it inspires more kits from the same source.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Friday, February 24, 2006 1:48 PM

Quick question as I am putting together my resources for this build.  What is a good book or better yet, a good website that teaches the better ways to rig model ships?

Thanks.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, February 24, 2006 11:16 PM

Before tackling this question - and at the risk of sounding preachy - I really feel obligated to make point. I venture to think that virtually every experienced ship modeler would agree:  a seventeenth-century ship-of-the-line is NOT a good project for learning how to rig a ship model. 

In the first place, such a ship involves a tremendous amount of repetition.  One of the trickiest parts of rigging is setting up deadeyes and lanyards.  A two-masted schooner has two or three pairs of shrouds on each mast - a total of perhaps two dozen deadeyes and a dozen lanyards.  A seventeenth-century ship-of-the-line has about ten pairs of shrouds each on the fore and main lower masts, six pairs on the mizzen lower mast, five each on the fore and main topmasts, four on the mizzen topmast, and three on the spritsail topmast.  Throw in the various backstays, bowsprit shrouds, and a few others, and you're talking about over two hundred deadeyes and a hundred lanyards.  A two-masted schooner's ratlines may require the tying of between a hundred and two hundred knots; a ship-of-the-line requires well over a thousand.  (Though I've never gone through the depressing experience of counting them.)  Seventeenth-century rigging was also characterized by what a more modern sailor would call unnecessarily complicated leads of lines.  Such pieces of rigging as crowsfeet, bowlines, and the leads of braces were more complex than they were in later centuries.  Setting up such gear with just the right amount of tension, so as to keep the lines realistically taut (and the spars in alignment) is quite a project. 

The first suggestion I always make to people breaking into the hobby is:  get your feet wet with a small ship - preferably on a fairly large scale.  Small doesn't mean ugly, or insignificant.  Start with a schooner or a sloop, as a means of  - literally - learning the ropes.  In a month or two you'll have a fine looking model on the mantle, and the time you've invested will pay off many times over on later, more elaborate projects.  Elsewhere in this Forum a skilled but not-very-experienced modeler is posting in-progress photos of his fishing schooner Gertrude L. Thebaud.  She's a beautiful, historically-important ship, the model shows every sign of being a fine one - and, a couple of months after the first photos were posted, it's almost finished.

There are several good books on the subject - including a couple fairly recent ones that I've missed.  (The Naval Institute Press has one titled Rigging Period Ship Models, the author of which I fear I've forgotten, that might be just the thing, but I haven't seen it.)  Dr. Anderson's The Rigging of Ships In the Days of the Spritsail Topmast was written for modelers, but it's about 75 years old.  In terms of information about rigging it's the best source available, but the techniques it describes are seriously out of date.  (Incidentally, if you do go looking for that book, make sure you get the title right.  Anderson did a revised version, titled simply Seventeenth-Century Rigging, a few years later, which concentrates entirely on English ships.  The earlier work discusses French practice as well.)

I generally recommend three books to people breaking into the hobby.  The first, and cheapest, is The Neophyte Ship Modeler's Jackstay, by George Campbell.  It's an old paperback published back in the 1950s by Model Shipways, and still sold by Model Expo for about $15.00.  It was intended as a guide for building the company's solid-hull wood kits, so some of the techniques described in it aren't relevant to plastic models.  But it contains a vast amount of information about hulls, decks, equipment, and rigging, all presented in non-intimidating fashion and accompanied by Mr. Campbell's clear, attractive drawings.  Anybody who learned everything in that little book would be well on the way toward being a knowledgeable ship modeler.

Just a few years ago Model Expo published another book for newcomers:  How To Build First-Rate Ship Models From Kits, by Ben Lankford.  This one also concentrates on wood kits, but much of the material in it is just as applicable to plastic ones.  (When it comes to the rigging, there really isn't much difference.)  In terms of such things as materials, adhesives, and techniques, Lankford obviously is much more up-to-date than Campbell. 

A good, general text on ship modeling is Historic Ship Models, by Wolfram zu Mondfelt.  Lots of modelers make it their first book acquisition.  It's a reliable, comprehensive overview of the hobby - though Mondfelt, like many other authors, barely acknowledges the existence of plastic kits.  For purposes of projects like this one it has a couple of other weaknesses.  One - its coverage is so generalized that it doesn't really offer much practical, detailed advice on any one aspect of the hobby.  Two - it's heavily continental European in its approach.  Some of the terminology, and the references to tools and materials, can be a little confusing to British and American readers.  (The "walnut" over which Mondfelt enthuses for so many purposes is, I think, "French" or "European" walnut, which is quite different from the walnut one finds at American lumber dealers.) 

All three of those books are available through Model Expo - and various other places as well.  (I imagine used copies can be found pretty cheaply on the web.)  Somewhere or other there's a website containing extensive excerpts from Mondfelt's book, including many of the sections on rigging.  I don't have that site written down, but I'll bet some other Forum member knows it.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Saturday, February 25, 2006 1:54 AM
 Grymm wrote:

I've noticed a variety of paint schemes that have been used.  I've seen the blue with the off-white, off yellow.  I've seen black at the waterline with white below the waterline.  I've seen just a lot of different interpretations.  What is considered most historically accurate?



There is no concensus.   The majority opinion is French royal warships of the era were typically painted in the following fashion:

The upper 1/3 of hull side is painted royal blue, with scupltures, freazework, wreath around gun ports guilded.

The lower 2/3 of hull side is left unpainted, but is varnished.

The underwater hull is painted either white or black.

However, in the only known contemporay painting of the Soleil Royal, her entire hull side from the lowest wale upwards are painted blue, and the wales themselves are guilded.  

Since Soleil Royal was a particular prestige ship, and the fleet flagship, it is possible she was painted differently from all other French ships.   It is also possible the all-blue color scheme was a temporay
scheme done for a particular occassion, such as a visit by the King.

I personally think the all-blue color scheme looks damned impressive.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, February 25, 2006 6:26 AM

I found the book I was trying to remember last night.  Here's a link:  http://www.usni.org/webstore/shopexd.asp?id=19397

Looks like a good book - though, like most Naval Institute Press publications these days, it's awfully expensive.  It apparently concentrates on eighteenth-century practice.  Seventeenth-century rigging looked significantly different in various ways, but the basic principles were about the same.  I imagine the combination of this book and the Anderson one (which is refreshingly cheap) would do the job.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Saturday, February 25, 2006 11:34 AM
 jtilley wrote:

Before tackling this question - and at the risk of sounding preachy - I really feel obligated to make point. I venture to think that virtually every experienced ship modeler would agree:  a seventeenth-century ship-of-the-line is NOT a good project for learning how to rig a ship model. 

Well, it may seem that way.  I've been in modelling for about 30 years, taking about a 10 year break while I was in the Air Force and starting a family.  I've never stopped painting.  During that 10 years I did nothing but miniature and resin painting.   I'm one who, given a proper reference, I'll be fine.  As for the sheer amount of rigging, I thrill for it.   Spending that kind of time on that difficult of work is where I get my focus, so I look forward to it.   I do appreciate the point and agree with you.  But, for me, it will be fun and I'll pick it up in no time.

So now is the research.  Get the paints in order, clean up the air brush, get my tools ready, and get the reference materials I need.

I'm probably going to go with the Blue/Guilded, white below the waterline.  The rest of the hull I'm going to have to take a shot with.  It's not white, not yellow ochre.  From all the references I've seen (including the all blue, which is very beautiful), it's something in between.

Now, on the rigging.  What I have in the box is all off-white.  Do I stain it?  I've noticed some lines are almost black, particularly the ratlines. 

Sorry guys, I'm probably going to drive you nuts with questions....hope you don't mind...

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Madison, Mississippi
Posted by Donnie on Saturday, February 25, 2006 3:31 PM
You will be surprised at the rigging line that you can use from like a fabric or a craft store store as such. I bought several different gauges and different shades of beige / black at a local hobby lobby store. I went to the section that does crossstitch and such and they had a huge assortment. Also, I went to the section where people make there own bead bracelets. They had alot assorted types of string of all gauges. I picked out some Nylon string which you don't have to treat with Bees Wax.
I got some Bees Wax and it was in the Bead section as well. Just cut to leanth the string you will use and run this string repeatedly into the Bees Wax. It makes out for a nice lacqured look of rigging (not saying that rigging has laqure on it) I am just saying that it looks nice.
Its all about what you want to do and how you want your model to look,. If you are happy with it, then this is what matters. Well, this is what matters to me is the personal enjoyment and satisfaction. Most people that look at my models will not know much difference anyway.

Enjoy your ship
Donnie
At one time I was looking into the very same ship, but I kinda stayed away from it. I hope that you will be posting some pictures. I have an account with www.photobucket.com   you will have to have someone to host your images so that you can use the URL tags

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, February 25, 2006 11:31 PM

Suggestion number one - throw out the thread that came with the kit.  I guess I should confess that I haven't seen the contents of a Heller Soleil Royal box in a good many years, and it's possible that Heller is supplying a different material than it used to.  But the thread packed in plastic sailing ship kits is notoriously awful - in terms of color, texture, durability, and everything else.

Ship modelers spend lots of time arguing about the best materials and colors for rigging line.  My personal favorite material is silk, but it's hard to find these days.  I've had some good experiences with nylon.  Some people avoid it, and all other sythetics on the grounds that (a) their longevity hasn't been proven, and (b) they're difficult to tie in knots, because they're slippery.  My opinion is that the longevity issue is over-stated.  And though I've encountered some synthetic threads that don't hold knots well, I've also used some nylon that works fine in that respect.  I've been fooling around recently with some stuff Model Expo sells called "cotton-poly mix."   So far I like it.  It handles and ties nicely, comes in lots of sizes and several appropriate colors, and is laid up in a manner that actually looks like real rope.  

The color of rigging line is an interesting subject, about which more research really needs to be done.  We're fairly confident about the color of line in from the late eighteenth century onward, but there's quite a bit of room for interpretation regarding earlier periods.

The books I mentioned earlier in this thread will explain the difference between the two basic categories of rigging:  standing rigging and running rigging.  Briefly, standing rigging stands; it holds up the masts, and transmits the energy from the sails to the ship's hull.  The wind fills the sails, the sails pull the yards to which they're secured, the yards pull the masts (unless the ship has been rigged by an idiot from the Heller design shop, who doesn't know yards are supposed to be fastened to masts), and the masts use the standing rigging to pull the ship through the water.  Running rigging runs.  It's constantly being hauled through blocks and other fittings to make various parts of the ship's top hamper (sails, yards, booms, gaffs, etc.) move.

The best source material we have on the subject of line color deals with the British navy, beginning in the mid-eighteenth century.  By the time of the American Revolution an act of Parliament specified that all line supplied to the Royal Navy must be hemp, soaked in Stockholm tar.  I've never seen Stockholm tar, but I'm reliably informed that it's a warm, rich brown in color.  That's what the running rigging (braces, sheets, bowlines, leechlines, halyards, clewlines, etc.) of a British ship from that period would look like.  The standing rigging (shrouds, stays, backstays, etc.) seems to have been given an additional protective coating of a substance containing tar and lampblack, which, if it wasn't pure black in color, must have been pretty close.  Lots of ship modelers make their standing rigging black and their running rigging brown.

Just how all this relates to a seventeenth-century French ship-of-the-line is hard to say.  There are quite a few contemporary models from the seventeenth century (more English than French), but most of them have been rerigged at least once.  The line on the few old models that still have their original rigging obviously has had several hundred years to change color.  It's usually quite dark.  In most cases it looks like all the lines on the ship were the same color, but that could be deceptive.  The old master marine paintings don't help much; they generally show the rigging in dark grey or brown silhouette. 

If I were doing that model again (heaven forbid) I'd probably make the standing rigging black (or nearly so) and the running rigging medium brown.  But I wouldn't be completely sure of myself.

There are two golden rules in ship model rigging.  One - if in doubt as to size, err on the small side.  Two - if in doubt as to color, err on the dark side. 

The preceeding, ridiculously verbose post probably says far more than you wanted to know about this stuff.  But believe me, this is just the tiny tip of the huge iceberg that's the subject of sailing ship rigging.  Hope it helps a little for a start.  The books I cited earlier have more advice on this topic.  Start with Campbell, then move on to Lankford and/or Mondfelt (for techniques) and Anderson (for the actual leads of the lines).  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Sunday, February 26, 2006 11:39 AM

Thanks for all the suggestions guys, especially on rigging.  It is a huge help.  I've also sent a message to the French Naval Historical Society inquiring about any and all info on the ship in question.  Hopefully I'll get some good historical info.

Well, one more night on the Constitution and I'll be ready to do some preliminary work.  And we know what that means...

Cannons, cannons, and more cannons.  Let the hair pulling begin...

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Madison, Mississippi
Posted by Donnie on Sunday, February 26, 2006 11:48 AM
It would be nice to see a picture of the box cover so that we can see the one that you are working on.

Donnie

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Monday, February 27, 2006 10:38 AM
Sure thing.  I'll post a pic tonight or tomorrow morning.
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