Heller Royal Louis – few questions

Chuck Fan wrote:

kapudan_emir_effendi wrote: I think a design akin to the Ville de Paris of American Revolution fame.   I doubt it.   Ville de Paris was an oddball amongst French 18th century 1st rates.   She started life with a lot fewer gun than 120, and was only later up-armed.   English accounts of the battle of the saints about the capture of the great big first rate was factually in error.   Ville de Paris was smaller than near contemporay English 1st rates like the Victory.    She was closer in size to 1st rates of Louis XIV era rather than those of Louis XV and XVI.    Her dimensions are given in one of the conway books.

 

thanks for correcting me. Nevertheless, I'd really wish Heller would chose Sané's mighty L'Océan instead of R.L as its three decker subject She looks far more cool and there would be option to build other equally famous ships (such as l'Orient) which belonged to her class.

kapudan_emir_effendi wrote:

I think a design akin to the Ville de Paris of American Revolution fame.

 

I doubt it.   Ville de Paris was an oddball amongst French 18th century 1st rates.   She started life with a lot fewer gun than 120, and was only later up-armed.   English accounts of the battle of the saints about the capture of the great big first rate was factually in error.   Ville de Paris was smaller than near contemporay English 1st rates like the Victory.    She was closer in size to 1st rates of Louis XIV era rather than those of Louis XV and XVI.    Her dimensions are given in one of the conway books.  

 

Thank you very much max ! Geez, It is not a Sané ship I think a design akin to the Ville de Paris of American Revolution fame.

The plan is from Blaise Ollivier 1742, the R.L. was destroyed by fire on its stocks. In 1758 a new RL was built from Blaise Ollivier plans by J. Coulomb; of this ship exists a large model in Musee de la Marine/ Paris on which the Heller kit is based. This is what I know.

Max.

My webhost just mucked up my pic, but I do have a good stern view on my www. photo site.

http://scott-murray.fotopic.net/c1119295.html 

Cher Papillion, do your plans include also some information about the history of that SoL ? I'm really curious to learn if it is a Sané design or not.

This kit is based on the original plans which I have, the tumblehome is correct, E. Paris has drawn a set of masts in his Souvenirs De La Marine which is also used by Heller: tops are too big. The decoration is inspired by the large model of the R.L. in the Musee in Paris. All in all, it's not a bad kit!! On the same hull is based the l'Indomptable and Gladiateur with its riducule high fantasy stern; crap and a typical Heller trick. The firma Mamoli has based a big wooden kit on the same model, probably they just copied the little Heller model and their hull is distorted: other lines than above mentioned plan, hull is too long in 1:90 while breadth is about correct.

Weird things you see in ships modelers world!

kapudan_emir_effendi wrote:

just a little remark; I compared the photo of the 118 gun L'Océan's model in the museé de la marine (from the http://www.sailingwarships.com/ pictures section) with those of so called Royal Louis. They seemed quite similar to me, the tumblehome and even their figurehead look to be the same. May these two can be in fact the same ship ? regards

1.  3 decker, first rate ship of the line Royal Louis is not fictional.   There had been at least 2 3 deckers named Royal Louis.   The first 3 decker named Royal Louis was built at about 1680 during the reign of Louis XIV, and served at the same time as the more famous Soleil Royal.   That Royal Louis was the world's first 120 gunner, and was probably even larger than 104 gun Soleil Royal.

2.  The last 3 decker Royal Louis was designed by te famous Sene at about 1780.   I don't know what happened to her after the French Revolution.    Many, if not all, French 1st rates from before the revolution were renamed, some several times, and went on to serve the Napoleonic French navy.     Royal Louis may in fact be the same ship as l'Ocean.       What I do know is all French 1st rates built from about 1775 to the end of Napoleonic war were all essentially identical, and based on the same set of drawings penned by the famous Sene.   So the latter Royal Louis would have looked nearly identical to l'Ocean.

Celestino wrote:

I do not know how to post photos or  I would provide the proof.  If you wish I can email  them to you and you may post for me.

Dear Celestino,

Thank you for your offer. Please, send me some photos of your Royal Louis to the following email address:

stefan.kr@azet.sk

Well, I have the Royal Louis and I send Michael a number  of  photos via email  regarding the tumblehome on the previous occasion we discussed this subject. Photos taken bow on as well as broadside.  Tumblehome is quite noticeable.  Really need  to apply thin plastic planking inbetween wales to generate an acceptable  profile.

I do not know how to post photos or  I would provide the proof.  If you wish I can email  them to you and you may post for me.

Michael, if you are reading this, can you post the prow images of  the RL?

just a little remark; I compared the photo of the 118 gun L'Océan's model in the museé de la marine (from the http://www.sailingwarships.com/ pictures section) with those of so called Royal Louis. They seemed quite similar to me, the tumblehome and even their figurehead look to be the same. May these two can be in fact the same ship ?

regards

I'm uncomfortable with generalizations - especially generalizations about subjects with which I'm not really familiar.  I haven't studied any contemporary plans of late-eighteenth-century French warships, and I can't recall having seen any plans or paintings of this particular vessel.  I do have the first three volumes of Jean Boudriot's superb set, Le Vaisseau de 74 Canons, and I've looked at reproductions of quite a few contemporary paintings and models of French ships from the period.  On that extremely sketchy basis I have to say that in various respects the Heller kit, to my not-especially-qualified eye, just doesn't look right.  In addition to the tumble home problem we've already mentioned, the bow has a strange shape, the sheer line is clumsy, and I have my doubts about the proportions of the spars.  (It looks to me like the topmasts are longer than the lower masts.  That would make it impossible to strike the topmasts.)  I'm certainly willing to be corrected on the basis of some real historical evidence, but it looks to me like that model is a typical early Heller production:  the work of extremely talented artisans whose knowledge of real ships was highly defective.

jtilley wrote:

I'm going to have to bow out of this discussion.  I haven't seen the kit in about thirty years, and the photos weren't taken from angles that really show the "tumble home" problem.

I Agree. The photos on the web page mentioned by Celestino aren’t very useable in this case.

But what about the ones on following pages:

http://www.modelarstwo.org.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4504&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

http://www.modelarstwo.org.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4504&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

http://www.modelarstwo.org.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4504&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

 I think that they show the tumblehome problem better.

I'm going to have to bow out of this discussion.  I haven't seen the kit in about thirty years, and the photos weren't taken from angles that really show the "tumble home" problem.

http://www.old.modelarstwo.org.pl/szkutnicze/galeria/duvnjak/royal_louis/index.html

Images if completed unit. You decide how poorly it looks.

You can always use thin,flexible layers of sheet styrene to build up the hull so the tumblehome is minimized.

Dear J. Tilley,

Thank you for your answer.

I have read your previous posts in this forum and I must say that they (and also the posts of millard, scottrc, michel.vrtg and other members) are really remarkable source of information about plastic sailing ship models.

 
From your answer it seems to me that the tumblehome of Heller Royal Louis is totally insane. That the real ship simply cannot be build according to Heller model.

Am I right?

I can't help much here.  I bought that kit many years ago, when it appeared in the U.S. under the "Aristorcraft" label.  (That must have been the very late sixties or very early seventies.)  I never finished it. 

My 30-year-old recollections are that the tumble-home was ridiculous, the "carved" detail on the bow and stern were excellent (for that day), and the "wood grain" detail on the hull, though done quite meticulously, was out of scale.  (I seem to recall that the "planks" on the hull and deck were ludicrously wide.  I'm really shaky about that one, though.)  I think I also remember concluding that the gun carriages would need to be modified.  Each of them was molded in one piece, with the sides parallel.  (A real eighteenth-century gun carriage is tapered, like the barrel it holds.)

This was one of Heller's first attempts at sailing ship models.  I believe the hull castings were used later as the basis for several other, largely imaginary models; Heller was notorious for pulling that kind of stunt in those days.  Later Heller sailing ships got much better.

That's about all this Halfzheimer's-afflicted brain can remember about this kit.  Maybe some other Forum members have more recent experience with it.