having problems with water diorama

It all depends on what kind of "seas" your ships are going to be in. If they are going to be under a full head of steam with rolling seas, then you'll need some sort of base for the large swells. Yes, clay or similar items are normally used but I have also used modeling paste, which dries rock hard, built up into "swells" then applied gel medium over that. If you are going to model in calm seas and barely underway, then the gel medium alone will work, though you will need a lot of it. You can build up layers in certain areas to simulate gentle swells. I usually make my bow wakes out of Milliput clay. It's a two part clay that dries hard when the two parts are worked together. The largest display I ever made this way was my most recent one. It measures 32" long and 9" wide. Here's a link to what it looks like:

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/bb/hms/pow-350-tb/tb-index.html

I'm sure the same methods will work with your large display.

Hope this helps,

Ted

 

kal_jadaen wrote:

As far as gel medium goes I hear it doesnt work to well for large dioramas.

I don't know who told you that.   Acrylic paint (artists paint in a tube) and acrylic gel medium works well for making oceans.   The problem is that it will shrink as it dries.    Your solution is to build the ocean in layers instead of trying to glop it down all at one time.   This also has the benefit of building depth in the water, laying "wash" layers of paint and gel in different shades of your ocean color.   By using white in some of the layers you can build the turbulence of generated by bow wakes as well as stern wakes.   Finish off with a coat or two of Future for a shiny wet look.  I've seen many fine models that were placed on a monotone painted sea - which ruined the effect.

Another option you may choose to pursue is drywall spackle.   Again you must go with thin coats because it will crack as it dries if you lay up too thick coats.   Spackle also will weigh more when finished than will acrylic paint.   Lumps of spackle also seem to be more fragile to an accidental bump than is plain acrylic.   You must also paint the spackle, and again a monotone paint job ruins the effect you are seeking.

 

I don't know who says that gel medium isn't the way to go. I've used it for years on large scale models with no problems.

If you intend to do a very rough sea, purchase some foam insulation, cut, hack, and grind it to your liking. Then give it a coat of spackling paste or plaster of Paris. Once you have the rough shape, apply a layer of gel medium over the top.

Otherwise, if you're doing a relatively flat sea in 1/350, gel medium is still the way to go. Rusty White of Flagship Models prefers sculpey clay. I've recently started working with Aves Epoxy Sculpt.

When you sit the hulls into the base...before you start painting the hulls (but after they're cut), cover the hull with plastic wrap and tape the sides with masking tape, set them onto the base, and build up the "water" around the hull shapes. When the base dries, remove the hulls, remove the plastic wrap and tape, and paint the models. This way, when you're finished, you can drop them into the openings with minimal fuss. You might have to clean up the gaps with a little gel medium or even white glue.

Check out the following links:

http://www.steelnavy.com/Whitewater.htm

http://www.steelnavy.com/water.htm

http://www.steelnavy.com/WavePatterns.htm

thanks for all the advice! I kinda wanna make this effect....
http://www.steelnavy.com/CVN65.htm

was that gel medium that was used? he never states what it is that he used, though to me it looks like gel medium.  And if I get this correct it seems like he colored the gel medium white for the wakes and such? sorry for my newbie questions, I just really want to understand this whole process first! and of course i goign to be buying a cheap model just to practice with.... Searching the internet for prices of gel medium, all i see are small bottles of it. Also, how exactly do you color it? And what do you use to color it.  Links and such would be great, or names so i can do the searching.  really wanna make this look nice!  again, thanks for the help so far!

Doug used a sheet of blue plexiglas (an acrylic plastic) for the base and straight white acrylic artist's tube paint for the bow & stern wakes.  Colored sheet plaxiglas is an item which can be purchased from your local industrial plastic supply house.   The local hardware store likely only has clear plexiglas, the stuff used for unbreakable windows.

<quote

I created the waterline version of the Big E by cutting down the hull with my trusty and often abused Dremel. I used blue textured acrylic for the water base and white acrylic paint for the wakes.  If I ever build this kit again (not likely!) I would use Celluclay for the water instead.  It gives you more creative freedom to produce waves and more accurate wakes.

end quote>

Celluclay is a papier mache-like product.  It is sold in art & craft stores such as Michaels, MJ Designs, Hobby Lobby, or the like.   While it does not absolutely require baking to harden,  it is recommended to speed drying.  Mix it with water, glop it in place shape it and allow to dry.  It does shrink when drying.  Paint the dried material with artists tube paints.

Acrylic paste is an artist's acrylic medium used for creating thick texture techniques in paintings.   It is sold in the arts & craft stores (like those mentioned above) or in art supply houses.   It goes on white and dries clear to translucent.  It does shrink when glopped on in quantities.   Look for the LiquiTex brand.  The gel gomes in a tub -- 6 to 8 inches in diameter and 6 inches tall.  The gel can be colored by mixing with acrylic paint (tube kind for artists).  Use Paynes Gray for the deepest water and blues & greens to add visual interest.  Check phots of your ocean of interest.

Acrylic varnish or blending medium is a thinner or extender which is mixed with the tube paint it makes a thinner paint which flows well.   I use this for my water washes to create depth.    Future acrylic floor polish can also colored with some tube paint.   It dries shiney.  This is the most liquid & watery material that I use. 

awesome info! thanks so much.

So with your guys opinions, cause its obvious you guys know way more and have done this much more than I have.  What is the best way to go given how big my diorama is going to be? about 4 feet long by 2 feet wide?  Gel medium seems like it would take forever, because of the layers needed, but it also seems to be the most used.  Expert opions here, which way should I go? there is also this stuff here I found...

http://www.unrealdetails.com/

 

ideas?

kal_jadaen wrote:

Gel medium seems like it would take forever, because of the layers needed, but it also seems to be the most used.

Not really. I use the Liquidex gel medium out of the tub that Ed mentioned. You will need a lot of it because of the size of your display, but once you start lathering it on, it goes quick. For what you want to do you can use any of the suggestions that Jeff, Ed or myself previously mentioned for the forming of the swells, but for the water gel medium is the only way to go IMHO.

Ted

Another material that I read that is used, and there is an "how to" at Carrier Builders, is clear silicon sealant that is used for window glazing.  It dries clear, easy to shape, is far less expensive then acrylic gel, and has simular results.  One drawbaw is that is doesn't dry as hard as acrylic gel.

I have experimented with it and liked the results it would produce for a large model.   It is a lot thicker than acrylic gel so I didn't like it for 1/700 scale, but again, should work well with your large scale.

Scott

kal_jadaen wrote:

... there is also this stuff here I found... http://www.unrealdetails.com/

That stuff reminds me of clear resin casting epoxy (Envirocoat?).  It generates heat as part of the curing process.   Thick castings generate a lot of heat -- enough to warp the float on a Kingfisher I was trying to imbed in the stuff.   It also had the tendency to crawl up the sides of a subject -- not seeking its own level as does water.   Poured in thin layers it can look very good - where depth is important.   A friend made the USS Arizona wreck imbedded in the epoxy laying under the Arizona Memorial. 

Before committing the big project to what is often a permenant course of action ... (yes - if you screw up it is often permenant) ... practice several techniques.   Learn what works best for you.

 

The gel medium actually has a nice long working time, which makes it "well behaved" in your sort of application.

Now, one other thing you can do is to use gesso to make the "base" of the basic waves, wakes, etc.  Then paint that in suitable "ocean" colors.  Then use the clear gel to get waves and the like over that (remember that a 3' wave at 1/350 is only 0.1" tall).  I rather like the way this makes the "water" transparent down to where the "color" in it is, giving a very real (to me) look.  Highlighting the clear with white mixed with the gel also gives the right sort of look to my salty eyes.

Let me, slightly off topic, send you a Huzzah for choosing such a large space for the dio.  The closest underway ships generally get is 200', and that's some serious white-knuckle close steaming, too.  At 1/350, that's right near 7", which can make for a very wide dio as is.  It's just one of those details that will catch my eye, seeing ships in a dio only 75 or 150' apart.  A CBG covers up a lot of ocean--which is a good thing, as you want to be a good stretch off when the airedales ring up All Ahead Full, and swing into the wind . . . it can be like two blocks of downtown up and swerving across the street at the next light.