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Got my Cutty Sark yesterday!

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  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Right Side of a Left State
Posted by Shellback on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:00 AM

 Hippy-Ed wrote:
 Shellback wrote:
Hippy Ed that was a big undertaking at 11 yrs old ! I hope your not all knotted-up still .Big Smile [:D]


Knot no moreBig Smile [:D] after discovering a Marlin Spike 20 yrs. laterSmile,Wink, & Grin [swg]

Yup that'll work .Smile [:)]

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:14 AM
 Shellback wrote:
Hippy Ed that was a big undertaking at 11 yrs old ! I hope your not all knotted-up still .Big Smile [:D]


Knot no moreBig Smile [:D] after discovering a Marlin Spike 20 yrs. laterSmile,Wink, & Grin [swg]
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:12 AM
 Grymm wrote:

 Hippy-Ed wrote:
 Grymm wrote:
Hey Hippy Ed.  That photo of the jet.  That looks like like Lackland Air Force Base.  Am I right?  That's where I did my basic training....a long....long...long...time ago.


Sorry ta burst yer bubbleSmile,Wink, & Grin [swg] the aircraft is  the RA-5C vigilante and, is located at Cubi Point, PhillippinesBig Smile [:D]

When were you there?  I was stationed at Clark Air Base from 88' to 91'.  I visited Cubi Point many times and stayed with a Master Chief Petty Officer and his family when we evacuated Clark during the eruption of Mt Pinatubo.

 


I never was thereSad [:(] I found the pic on the web while searching for RA-5C BuNo:149312 of RVAH-9

If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Right Side of a Left State
Posted by Shellback on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:50 AM
Hippy Ed that was a big undertaking at 11 yrs old ! I hope your not all knotted-up still .Big Smile [:D]
  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Monday, April 24, 2006 8:27 AM

Wow!  Lot's of info on the state of the industry.  One would wish the model companies would make more of the sailing ships.  But, their product selection moves with the trends of the population as far as I can see.  

It's odd though.  You would think, with today's technology that molds would be a lot less expensive to cut.  I do see your point about a company making sure they can sell enough of the product in order to make their margin and justify the expenses.  One can only hope that the manufacturers will get out of the 50's and make some new molds.

I've been reading over the Cutty Sark.  The instructions have yellowed over time and are actually a bit brittle.  I put the hull halves together last night.  The mated up perfectly.  I'll be trimming and smoothing out the seam tonight and perhaps get the copper painted.  I'm probably going to go with a little of the weathered look for the copper.  Then it's on to yet another group of the never ending Royal Cannons....

Guys, thanks for all the info.  This is good stuff.  I'm going to start a "Cutty Sark Progress" thread so you can see (and critique) what I'm doing.

Thanks again.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Monday, April 24, 2006 8:14 AM

 Hippy-Ed wrote:
 Grymm wrote:
Hey Hippy Ed.  That photo of the jet.  That looks like like Lackland Air Force Base.  Am I right?  That's where I did my basic training....a long....long...long...time ago.


Sorry ta burst yer bubbleSmile,Wink, & Grin [swg] the aircraft is  the RA-5C vigilante and, is located at Cubi Point, PhillippinesBig Smile [:D]

When were you there?  I was stationed at Clark Air Base from 88' to 91'.  I visited Cubi Point many times and stayed with a Master Chief Petty Officer and his family when we evacuated Clark during the eruption of Mt Pinatubo.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, April 24, 2006 2:05 AM

In response to Dr. Wintjes - I haven't seen the Revell Germany Batavia; on your recommendation I'll see if I can find one.  Revell Germany kits are scarce in my neck of the woods, but I do see them occasionally on field trips to hobby shops in Raleigh and Newport News.  I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to see the full-size Batavia replica (briefly) in 1987, when she was under construction.  (I was in Holland for a maritime museum conference, and the attendees took a bus trip to see the ship.)  I can't comment on the accuracy of the reconstruction, but what I saw that day impressed me tremendously.

I agree completely with your remarks about Zvezda.  I have no idea how that company originated.  Establishing a plastic model company in the former Soviet Union must have been an interesting challenge.  I get the impression that Zvezda started out by reissuing other manufacturers' kits, but is now making its own.  The aircraft and tanks seem to be getting generally good reviews.  Let's hope that batch of mediocre Heller re-boxings was just a phenomenon of corporate adolescence.  Putting a cog in two different boxes does look suspiciously like Revell/Heller style merchandising - but at least both incarnations seem reasonable.  (Now, if they put that cog in a box labeled "H.M.S. Beagle"....)

I haven't seen the Zvezda cog in the flesh, but I'm thinking about ordering one.  It certainly offers lots of potential.  I suspect one reason the company picked it for a subject was the availability of lots of 1/72 medieval figures, who could turn the model effectively into a diorama.  It's occurred to me, in fact, that it might offer a rare opportunity to combine ship modeling with one of my other interests:  classical music.  A few appropriately-chosen figures and a small sound system inside playing a tape of Act I from Wagner's Tristan und Isolde would turn that kit into a real conversation piece, and confirm my wife's suspicion that I've gone out of my mind.  (She started thinking along those lines when I came home with a 1/144 Revell Airbus because of the decal sheet.  It has the spectacular markings of a plane that was decorated to commemorate the history of Austria - with an enormous picture of Mozart on the fin.) 

The Emhar Viking ship is great news.  The very fact that they're identifying it as being based on the Gokstad Ship is a positive sign.  If it does turn out to be the old Revell kit, that will be fine with me.

We sure have wandered a long way from the Cutty Sark.  My fault; sorry about that.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Sunday, April 23, 2006 11:03 PM
 Shellback wrote:

Grymm i've built several of Revells 1/96th scale ship models and had fun building them all . The most fun was running all of the rigging , it takes alot of time and patience. One problem is dust accumalation on the model . These models diffently need to be kept inside of a display case. The decorative scroll on the Constitution is raised detail in the plastic ,i hand painted mine , and i do'nt remember any decals in the kit.

Carl

 



I agree. all that rigging was alot of fun. I did away with those kit ratlines & did them with thread.  talk about drivin' someone knotty!! Make a Toast [#toast] it was my 1st kit at 11 yrs. of age & I had alot of fun with it though...
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Right Side of a Left State
Posted by Shellback on Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:41 PM

Grymm i've built several of Revells 1/96th scale ship models and had fun building them all . The most fun was running all of the rigging , it takes alot of time and patience. One problem is dust accumalation on the model . These models diffently need to be kept inside of a display case. The decorative scroll on the Constitution is raised detail in the plastic ,i hand painted mine , and i do'nt remember any decals in the kit.

Carl

 

  • Member since
    March 2006
Posted by jwintjes on Sunday, April 23, 2006 6:30 PM
 jtilley wrote:
I'm afraid the good old days when Revell was the leader in the field of plastic sailing ship kits are long gone.  According to Dr. Graham's book on the history of the company, Revell hasn't issued a genuinely new sailing ship kit since 1977.  (The last one was a nice little model of a Viking ship - in my opinion the best such kit ever.)  The first Revell sailing ship, the 1/192-scale Constitution, appeared in 1956.   Revell has, in other words, been out of the sailing ship field now for more than half of the company's existence.  (Revell of Germany has issued a few new ones since 1977, but they're hard to find in the U.S. - and haven't received exactly extatic reviews.)


Just two very minor remarks, if I may:

While I absolutely agree on the generally deplorable state the plastic sailing ship model currently is in, I do think it's necessary to point at the last really "new" kit Revell/Germany issued - the Dutch East Indiaman "Batavia". This kit, as it has been made in conjunction with the construction of a full-size replica, shares all the replica's strengths. The main weakness here is the shape of the lower hull which apparently is a little too shallow for a ship supposed to travel to East India and back. Apart from this point (and the obvious shroud and sail issues) however - which on the model is a rather minor one - the kit shows what could be done in the mid-1990s with the technology at the time.  The kit surfaces regularly on European internet auction sites and is quite worth putting some effort into it, producing a really interesting ship in a scale broadly comparable to that of the Wappen von Hamburg, which after all was quite a similar of somewhat more agressively armed ship.

 jtilley wrote:
I'm aware of one company that's currently showing at least a little interest in the field:  the Russian manufacturer Zvezda.  It recently issued a medieval Hanseatic cog on 1/72 scale.  I haven't bought one yet (the price is pretty steep), but it's been getting excellent reviews and the pictures of it on the web look great.  (That kit, incidentally, is one I would recommend to beginners.  It's an extremely attractive vessel that would provide some experience with all sorts of skills - assembly, painting, wood-grain effects, sails, spars, and rigging - without the amount of repetition that's inherent in a three-masted ship.  A few weeks' work on that kit would be like an introductory course in ship modeling - and would produce a mighty handsome mantle decoration as part of the bargain.)  I'll be extremely interested to see how that kit does.  If it sells reasonably well, maybe Zvezda will consider giving us some more sailing ships - and maybe other manufacturers will follow the lead.  But I'm not holding my breath in anticipation.



While I agree that the Zvezda cog does build into quite a nice model (though I was told that mating the lower part of the hull to the upper one isn't as easy as it is supposed to be), I fear Zvezda has not only taken over from Heller some of the latter company's old mouldings, but also the philosophy of recycling hulls as often as possible. The new kits Zvezda has come up with until now are effe<>ctively based on two hulls: something posing as a Roman covered Trireme which had to pose as a Greel Trireme, a Roman Trireme from the first Punic war, a Roman Trireme from imperial times and, if it's indeed that, a Carthaginian "warship", and the cog hull which with the addition of some different superstructures will be sold as a "crusader's ship". Taken together with the nice idea to reissue the Heller L'Orient/Sphinx as the British Sirius this all doesn't fill me with a lot of positive feeling about Zvezda's new releases. Of course I'm probably rather biased as I was profoundly disappointed when the Greek Trireme came out; after all, there is a suitable replica in existence!

Well, perhaps Emhar deserves finally some mention in this already much too long and meaningless rant of mine - they have announced a new Viking ship based on the Gokstad ship. It remains to be seen whether it is better than the indeed beautiful Revell one; judging from the research that apparently went into their 1/72 Viking figures it might turn out to be actually quite a good kit.

Jorit


  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Friday, April 21, 2006 1:11 PM
 Grymm wrote:
Hey Hippy Ed.  That photo of the jet.  That looks like like Lackland Air Force Base.  Am I right?  That's where I did my basic training....a long....long...long...time ago.


Sorry ta burst yer bubbleSmile,Wink, & Grin [swg] the aircraft is  the RA-5C vigilante and, is located at Cubi Point, PhillippinesBig Smile [:D]
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, April 21, 2006 12:54 PM

Here are two Forum threads in which we've discussed the various issues related to sails on models:

http://www.finescale.com/FSM/CS/forums/603719/ShowPost.aspx

 http://www.finescale.com/FSM/CS/forums/564680/ShowPost.aspx

There are quite a few different opinions in those threads.  Please take all of them in the context of the others, and draw your own conclusions.

If you do decide to fit a model of the Cutty Sark with sails, the first thing you need to do is get a clear understanding of what happens to the yards when the sails are set and furled.  The Cutty Sark has double topsails and single topgallants on all three masts, and a skysail on the mainmast.  The three lower yards (for the fore course, main course, and crojack) are fixed in their positions vertically.  So are the three lower topsail yards.  The upper topsail, topgallant, royal, and (in the case of the mainmast) skysail yards slide up and down the masts when the sails are set and furled.  When the sails are furled (or removed) the upper topsail yards are lowered until they're a few feet above the lower topsail yards.  (That configuration, with just a few feet separating the upper and lower topsail yards, is highly characteristic of the ship.  It's quite clear in the various photos on the ship's website.)  The topgallant, royal, and skysail yards also get lowered, until they're almost sitting on the collars of the stays immediately below them.

The Revell rigging instructions aren't bad - certainly in a different world from the disgraceful document that comes with the Heller Soleil Royal.   Revell has changed them several times over the years.  The original issue of the kit, back in 1959, had remarkably sophisticated rigging instructions.  They advised the modeler to make the topsail halyards and sheets out of 36-link brass chain, and add jackstays made of piano wire to all the yards.  (The yards have rows of little pegs molded on top of them.  Those represent the jackstay eyebolts.  Making the jackstays from wire is an excellent idea.)  I built that kit for the first time when I was about twelve years old; I remember how excited I got when my father drove me downtown to the hobby shop to buy that chain.  (Dad balked a little when he discovered I needed 12 feet of the stuff, at something like $1.25 per foot, but he coughed up the funds.  Looking back on it, I realize what he was thinking:  if John wasn't fooling around with ship models, he'd probably be doing something worse.)  The more recent issues have simplifed the rigging quite a bit.  If you want to know what the rigging of the ship actually looks like, you can do no better than the George Campbell plans I recommended earlier.  I can't think of a better way to invest $15 in a ship modeling project.

I'm afraid the good old days when Revell was the leader in the field of plastic sailing ship kits are long gone.  According to Dr. Graham's book on the history of the company, Revell hasn't issued a genuinely new sailing ship kit since 1977.  (The last one was a nice little model of a Viking ship - in my opinion the best such kit ever.)  The first Revell sailing ship, the 1/192-scale Constitution, appeared in 1956.   Revell has, in other words, been out of the sailing ship field now for more than half of the company's existence.  (Revell of Germany has issued a few new ones since 1977, but they're hard to find in the U.S. - and haven't received exactly ecstatic reviews.)

Producing a new plastic sailing ship kit is, in fact, extremely expensive.  The actual plastic that gets squirted into the molds does indeed represent only a tiny percentage of the investment.  But the tooling of steel molds costs vast amounts of money - especially molds for 2-foot-long hull halves.  The design costs, even with the help of computers, are huge, and still more money goes toward things like instruction book artwork, packaging, and box art.  When I was working in a hobby shop (quite a few years ago) the rule of thumb (according to the trade journals and the distributors' reps) was that a kit manufacturer figured on breaking even on a new kit if it sold 100,000 units.  I suspect the number is a little lower than that nowadays; the retail prices of plastic kits have risen somewhat faster than inflation, and I think the profit margins for the manufacturers are a little higher.  But apparently the people responsible have determined that plastic sailing ships just don't sell well enough to justify the investment.

The question, "why stick with old molds?" has an obvious answer.  New molds are expensive.  Old molds cost nothing.  A quick look at the current Revell/Monogram catalog will show that (with the remarkable exception of those beautiful new 1/72 submarine kits, the 1/400 Queen Mary 2, and maybe one or two others) all the ship kits - sailing ships, modern warships, and modern merchantmen - are at least thirty years old.  In pure business terms that makes sense.  I remember reading an article in one of the trade journals in which a Revell executive enthused over the fact that the company's 1/535-scale Missouri was one of its best sellers - despite the fact that it was an older kit and didn't represent the state of the art.  It was a big money maker because the company had long since gotten back the initial investment; apart from the few cents' worth of styrene and the paper and printing for the box and instructions, the kit represented pure profit.  That kit was originally issued in 1954.  Revell/Monogram is still selling it - with a retail price at least five times as much as the original.  By the standards of 2006 the thing is a piece of junk - but people still buy it.  So why should the company make anything better?

The American plastic kit manufacturers in general have virtually given up on sailing ships.  The current Revell-Monogram catalog contains three:  two Constitutions and the C.S.S. Alabama.  All three are reissues of kits that are at least forty years old.  The only other American firm currently selling plastic sailing ships is Lindberg.  All of its kits are reissues of extremely old ones - either Lindberg's own originals or kits that were originally issued by the long-defunct Pyro Plastics.  (Some of those kits in pretty new Lindberg boxes are well over fifty years old.)  On the other side of the Atlantic, Airfix hasn't issued a genuinely new sailing ship since the early eighties, and the most recent Heller one, the 1/100 H.M.S. Victory, dates from about 1978.  At about that time a Japanese company called Imai issued a series of sailing ship kits that were among the best ever.  (The Imai 1/125 Cutty Sark, in my personal opinion, is a better kit than the big Revell one.)  Imai went out of business after just a few years.  (Some of them have reappeared lately under other labels - usually at outrageous prices.)  These are bad times for plastic sailing ship enthusiasts.  There aren't many of them; they subsist largely on kits they buy at flea markets and on E-bay. 

I'm aware of one company that's currently showing at least a little interest in the field:  the Russian manufacturer Zvezda.  It recently issued a medieval Hanseatic cog on 1/72 scale.  I haven't bought one yet (the price is pretty steep), but it's been getting excellent reviews and the pictures of it on the web look great.  (That kit, incidentally, is one I would recommend to beginners.  It's an extremely attractive vessel that would provide some experience with all sorts of skills - assembly, painting, wood-grain effects, sails, spars, and rigging - without the amount of repetition that's inherent in a three-masted ship.  A few weeks' work on that kit would be like an introductory course in ship modeling - and would produce a mighty handsome mantle decoration as part of the bargain.)  I'll be extremely interested to see how that kit does.  If it sells reasonably well, maybe Zvezda will consider giving us some more sailing ships - and maybe other manufacturers will follow the lead.  But I'm not holding my breath in anticipation.

 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Friday, April 21, 2006 12:28 PM
Hey Hippy Ed.  That photo of the jet.  That looks like like Lackland Air Force Base.  Am I right?  That's where I did my basic training....a long....long...long...time ago.
  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Friday, April 21, 2006 10:53 AM
"But, be forewarned.  I am no expert and everyone will spot obvious mistakes.  So I post photos with a little bit of embarrasement.  Be merciful, but I insist on constructive criticism also.  It's been many years since I've taken on projects like these, so I have a lot of learning/remembering to do."

Be forewarned, many of us are in the same boatWink [;)] I for one am returning to  the hobby after some 20 yrs of run-a-muk myself & have been slowly getting back into the swing of things.
  Have fun & enjoy, take your time as this isn't a competitionBig Smile [:D]
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Friday, April 21, 2006 10:46 AM

You know, you hit a good point that I've been pondering lately.  "Revell in those days."

What happened to Revell?  A kit like the 1:96 Constitution and Cutty Sark hasn't come around (as a new kit), in a long time.  Looking at it from a business perspective (job costs, etc.), it cannot be that expensive to create a kit.  The most expensive part of the process would be in design.  That's about it.  Once the molds are created, the costs to produce the product drop dramatically.  So why stick with old molds? 

My best guess is that it's the classic example of a company moving away from quality and innovation in favor of quantity and expected margins.  Sad.  Just sad.  Revell (or a lot of model companys for that matter), could do so much more with their product.  Today's technology would make it possible to create stunning kits.  Even their automobile and aircraft kits seem to be lacking, with the same amounts of excess flash, etc we have seen for decades.  Surely the technology would have allowed them to limit this.

If I were in a position to "do it my way", there would be distinct changes made.  But, one can always dream now, can't they.

I've been leaning towards furled sails.  That's a bit far off though, so I'll get into that later.  This weekend I'll be finishing initial paint on the Royal Hull, building yet another batch of guns for her, and start cleaning up parts and doing initial work on the Cutty Sark.  Stay tuned for photos.  But, be forewarned.  I am no expert and everyone will spot obvious mistakes.  So I post photos with a little bit of embarrasement.  Be merciful, but I insist on constructive criticism also.  It's been many years since I've taken on projects like these, so I have a lot of learning/remembering to do.

 

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Stockton,Ca
Posted by Hippy-Ed on Friday, April 21, 2006 10:39 AM
This sounds like the one I got for my 11th B-Day many moons agoShy [8)] It was new & didn't have the instructions (still sealed too) I wanted to build it & went to the library to find books for references. I tossed the kit sails & tore up an old pillow case & made my own sails. Furl the sails & have a ton of funThumbs Up [tup]Thumbs Up [tup]
If you lose your sense of humor, you've lost everything
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, April 21, 2006 10:06 AM

It's on 1/96 scale (1/8" = 1').

To my knowledge there are no aftermarket parts specifically for this kit.  Whether the decal approach is the best one is a matter of opinion.  Those carvings are mighty small; to do them nicely in three dimensions would be quite a project (though the artisans of Revell in those days probably could have done it).  The big practical problem would have been the stern.  In order to make the carvings go around the curve of the bulwarks there, they would have had to be cast in several separate pieces.  (Airfix did its smaller Cutty Sark that way.  The carvings, as I remember, were pretty well done, but the segmented bulwark sections at the stern created another joint-filling problem.)

If the decals in your kit are in good condition (due to its age, they may not be), don't give up on them till you see what they look like in place.  They're quite well done.

Regarding sails - we've had some good, lively discussions of that subject here in the Forum.  I personally have no use for vac-formed plastic sails; they just don't look realistic to my eye - especially on large models like this one.  I'm a big fan of furled sails, though.  If I were doing a Cutty Sark, I'd rig her with furled sails.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Friday, April 21, 2006 9:12 AM
This kit looks good with sails, with sails furled, and without sails. 
Scott

  • Member since
    February 2006
Got my Cutty Sark yesterday!
Posted by Grymm on Friday, April 21, 2006 9:04 AM

Mail came yesterday and my Revell Cutty Sark, the 36" mid 70's model arrived.  I must say I am impressed.  I had forgotten that Revell put out kits like this.  It's by no means perfect, but then I'm not a perfectionist.  The model itself is beautiful.  But what I really like are the instructions, primarily the rigging instructions.  The rigging instructions are very easy to understand and the rigging threads included are, to me, perfect.   This is going to be a fun secondary build to my Soleil Royal (which is already driving me crazy).  There are a lot of good web resources to tap for this kit too.

So, what scale is this Cutty Sark?  No scale is given.  I would assume it's somewhere around 1:96 or greater.  Also, I wish that Revell had not used decals for all the stern and bow decorations.  Do aftermaket decorations exist?  And is the Revell 1:96 Constitution this well thought out?

I highly recommend this kit to anyone, both masters (though you've probably already built the kit) and beginners alike.  It is a wonderful kit to learn rigging on.  I'll be rigging this model before I take on rigging the Royal.  Ebay has several of the kits being auctioned at any given time.  Get it if you can.

Oh, what does everyone think?  Sails, or no sails?  Kit supplied sails or aftermarket?  Furled or unfurled?  I can decide for myself, but I want everyone's opinion.

 

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