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What considers a person a Shipwright ?

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  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Madison, Mississippi
What considers a person a Shipwright ?
Posted by Donnie on Thursday, May 11, 2006 10:53 PM
I was just wondering how or when does one consider themselves a Shipwright?
When can someone say that they are a Shipwright?

  • Is this determined as to how many ships they have built or scratch-built?
  • Is it how long (months - years) they have been building ships?
  • Is it determined as only how good they are at building ships?
  • Is it determined as to how fast they are at building?
  • or perhaps it is based solely on a persons "knowledge of the art and history"

Does this question make any sense Smile [:)]
Just curious.

Thanks
Donnie
BTW- I almost have some pics ready of my finished mast of my Wappen Von Hamburg around this weekend. I will post as usual.

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:41 PM

The question does make sense, in that quite a few people ask it.  I guess, in all honesty, that my answers to both the basic question and the sub-questions are (a) I have no idea; and (b) I don't care.  I hope that doesn't sound snooty, but I've long been opposed to applying such labels.  Ship modeling (thank goodness) does not have an accrediting agency.  Any labels that get put on models or modelers get there simply because some individual thought it would be a good idea.  Such terms get applied so carelessly - albeit frequently with a great deal of enthusiasm - that they really don't mean anything.

One of my pet peeves is the expression "museum-quality model."  It's an oxymoron.  (That's a term that contradicts itself internally.  Other well-known examples are "jumbo shrimp," "airline food," "military intelligence," and "rock music.")  Museums have lots of reasons for acquiring models that have nothing to do with "quality" as a modeler would define it.  Some of the lousiest models I've ever seen, in terms of workmanship, accuracy, and any other criteria you want to name, have been in museums.  Sometimes it happens because the people working at the museum don't know what a good scale model is.  (That happens more often than lots of modelers would like to believe.)  On other occasions the museum has a good reason for acquiring such a model.  If I'm a curator of a maritime museum and somebody brings in a model of the Santa Maria made out of balsa wood, with heavy string for rigging, heavy cloth for sails, a lopsided hull with no detail on it, and several coats of cheap enamel paint, and tells me he built it, I'll politely show him the door.  Bring me an identical model with indisputable proof that it was built by one of Columbus's sailors, and I'll try to get a wealthy patron to donate a million dollars so I can buy it.  A model of a P-51 carved out of a stick by an American pilot while he was in a POW camp as a gift for his kids surely has a place in an aviation museum.  And so forth.

Another one is "professional-quality model."  That a modeler is a professional simply means that he/she gets paid for building models.  There is no correlation whatsoever, in either direction, between professional status and the quality of the model.  Professionals often have access to materials, tools, and other resources that are beyond the financial reach of the rest of us.  Professionals also, in many cases, have to work to schedules, and are limited in what they can do by what their customers want, or can afford.  The amateur can spend as much time and effort on a model as he/she wants; the professional usually can't.  Consider for a moment the model of the U.S.S. Constitution that you saw for sale at K-Mart last week.  Its hull is distorted beyond recognition, its spars are so oversized that they'd make the ship fall over, the "gun barrels" are about six scale feet in diameter, and the sails are made of some ridiculous, cheap fabric "aged" with black spray paint.  It sells for $20.00, and by any reasonable scale modeler's definition it's a piece of junk.  And the guy who built it is a professional ship modeler.

Yet another is "miniature."  People seem to get emotional about that one; everybody seems to have his or her own private definition of it.  Donald McNarry (a modeler whose work I revere) says a "miniature model" is one on a scale smaller than 1/16" = 1'.  August Crabtree, whom we've been discussing recently in another Forum thread, always insisted that the large-scale replicas he built were "not just ship models but miniature ships."  (His wife was even more adamant about that point - especially when the Mariners' Museum published a little book, with text by me, titled The Ship Models of August Crabtree.  The Crabtrees apparently thought the term "miniature ship" should be applied only to models built in the authentic plank-on-frame style.  I've never heard of anybody else using that definition.)  Some years ago the National Maritime Museum, in London, held a ship model competition with a special classification for "miniature ships."  The NMM's definition was so complicated that I couldn't understand it - and it certainly differed from both McNarry's and Crabtree's.  Get real, folks.  Any reproduction of an object on a smaller scale than 1/1 is, by definition, a miniature - and a model.

The American Heritage Dictionary, which I happen to have by my computer, defines "shipwright" as "one that builds or repairs ships."  That'll do for me.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Bangor, Maine
Posted by alross2 on Friday, May 12, 2006 7:55 AM

Great response, John.

Al Ross

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Madison, Mississippi
Posted by Donnie on Friday, May 12, 2006 8:45 AM
Thank you Mr. Tilley for your response and time devoted to help me understand.

Donnie

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, May 12, 2006 10:17 AM

I hope my earlier post in this thread didn't insult anybody.  It certainly wasn't intended too; I probably typed it too late at night for my own good.  But, as probably was obvious, I do have some strong opinions on the subject.

The National Model Railroad Association has an "Achievement Awards" program that recognizes levels of accomplishment in model railroading:  http://www.nmra.org/achievement/ .  I don't know anything about it beyond what's on that website, but it looks like some knowledgeable people have put some time into setting up a set of standards that can be applied fairly and consistently.  If model railroaders get pleasure out of adhering to those standards, and getting certified as "Master Modelers," that is of course entirely their business.  I,  for one, would not want to see anything similar in ship modeling - and I think the development of such set of standards for that hobby would be exceedingly difficult if not impossible.

What I would like to see in ship modeling is something similar to the NMRA's standards for manufacturers.  When a magazine reviews a newly-released HO locomotive or freight car, one of the first things the reviewer does is compare such things as the wheel gauges and flange depths, coupler heights, and car weights to the NMRA standards.  The manufacturers are under no obligation to adhere to those standards, but if they don't the knowledgeable modeler is likely to find out and avoid the product.  It's often occurred to me that such a system would be beneficial in other forms of modeling.  The IPMS, or the Nautical Research Guild, or some such organization could publish a set of guidelines saying that, for instance, an airplane kit whose wingspan was within four scale inches of the prototype's dimensions, or a ship kit whose hull length was within two scale feet thereof, met the standard.  The manufacturers could be encouraged, if their products met the standards, to print the IPMS or NRG logo on the kit boxes, and in their magazine ads.  Products like the infamous Revell "H.M.S. Beagle" and the various HECEPOB (Hideously Expensive Continental European Plank-On-Bulkhead) kits would flunk, and modelers (at least those who read the magazines) would be warned to avoid them.

The more I think about that idea, though, the more obvious it is that it could never work.  There are just too many variables, and too many places where subjective opinion would worm its way into the process.  Besides, the manufacturers would never cooperate. 

I do think it's ironic that different phases of scale modeling seem to have such different notions of what constitutes acceptable behavior on the part of manufacturers.  The model railroaders have a set of published standards.  The model airplane builders haven't (to my knowledge) published anything similar, but they do have standards - and let the manufacturers know what they are.  I'm thinking of the notorious case of the Trumpeter 1/32 F4F Wildcat kit a few years back.  The initial run of kits had a fuselage that was distorted in shape by something in the neighborhood of 1/4".  Squadron Mail Order found out about the error and refused to sell the kit.  Trumpeter changed the molds.  But ship modelers - especially sailing ship modelers - have to take whatever the manufacturers throw at them.  The vast majority of HECEPOB kits couldn't come close to the standard Squadron applied to that Trumpeter Wildcat.  Neither could most of the Heller sailing ship kits.  And it's interesting to speculate on what would happen if a manufacturer changed a few parts on a B-17 kit and put it in a box labeled "B-52."  That's just about what Revell did when it re-boxed the Bounty with the name "Beagle" on it.

I'm aware of only two cases when ship model manufacturers have been called on the carpet because of their misdeeds - both due to intervention not by modelers' organizations but by museums.  Back in the early eighties Revell reissued its Type VII U-boat kit in a box labeled "U-505."  U-505, of course, is the Type IX boat preserved by the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago.  When customers who bought the kit at the museum gift shop started complaining that the contents of the box didn't look like the real U-505, and the gift shop stopped selling the kit, Revell took it off the market.  And the Wasa Museum, in Stockholm, has endorsed two kits that represent the Wasa:  the plastic one from Airfix and the wood one from Billing.  The museum remained silent regarding the HECEPOB version from Corel.  That doesn't seem to have bothered Corel much, if at all, but people who want to build scale models of the Wasa can find out from the museum website that the other two kits come up to a reasonable standard of accuracy.

I guess we have to accept that, since serious scale sailing ship modelers are so few in number, we just don't have the leverage to influence most of the manufacturers.  I do see some bright spots on the horizon, though.  The brightest is the tremendous improvement in plastic and resin twentieth-century warship kits during the past few years.  (Three new 1/700 Bismarcks in one year?  Photo-etched radar screens?  Aircraft carriers with transparent flight decks?  Russo-Japanese War battleships?  A 1/700 resin Italian monitor?  I must be dreaming.)  A few companies (Bluejacket, Model Shipways, Calder/Jotika, A.J. Fisher) seem to have genuine respect for scale sailing ship modelers.  Maybe the day will come when we get the same level and quantity of support that the railroad, aircraft, and armor enthusiasts do now.  I don't think it will happen in my lifetime, but maybe some day.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    April 2006
Posted by armchair sailor on Friday, May 12, 2006 10:53 AM
        I`ve struggled with this for years personally because I`ve wanted to build to the quality of a Donald McNarry or of his like but the reality is I never will because I don`t have that kind of skill. There are many out there who are excellent modelers who`s quality is beyond compare. But, the majority of us are like myself, a person who can make an attractive model but definately not "museum Quality " or contest quality. My hat is off to the real "professionals" who make beautiful models and I think it`s a skill someone is born with. They can see the details and be able to replicate them on a model that most of us can`t see or, to be honest, really don`t care about or want to replicate. They are "anal " to put it bluntly. That makes a good model for us to admire. The good thing for us is it gives us something to aspire to. That`s why we poor over the reference books and model magazines like Fine Scale Modeler. To look to see what someone has accomplished with a so-so kit that we all own or to inspire us to take on a kit and scratchbuild a detail that we wouldn`t have tried as a kid. I think there are some great " artist`s " out there. Some of the kits I`ve seen have really inspired me to get back into the hobby that I abandoned for the last 10 or 15 years. I agree with Mr. Tilley in that some of the models in museum`s are not to scale or even well done but do we flock to see them............ you bet. And we stare at them for hours.  I also agree in that it would be nice to see some kind of standard of acceptability for kits issued. I actually think Trumpeter is bringing that kind of scrutinity to the forefront by issuing the kits they have been. Every ship modelmaker is foaming at the mouth for each new ship issued and are somewhat demanding the quality to be there . We will see.....................
  • Member since
    October 2005
Posted by CG Bob on Friday, May 12, 2006 12:11 PM

John - your discussion of the NRMA's Achievemant Award program to earn a Master Modeler certificate reminds of a suggestion made a few years ago to the Scale Ship Modelers Association of North America.  It was suggested that the SSMANA adopt a system similar to the NRMA's.  One of the sticking points was contest awards for static judging.  The SSMANA has several classes of models: pleasure boats (privately owned runabouts & cruisers); working vessels (tugs, freighters, cruise ships & ferries); military vessels; racing vessels; and government vessels (police boats, fireboats, NOAA, Canadian CG, etc).   It was suggested that a person needed to recieve 1st place wins in any three of the classes; that was countered by a sugeestion for 3 "gold" awards in static judging.  The suggestion for gold, silver and bronze awards had point values based on 100 point scale: gold 90-100 points; silver 80-90 points; bronze 70-80 points.  My counter point was that I have a model that has won several 1st place awards, and the model received between 60 and 99 points depending on  the judges.  The reasoning for winning in three different classes was to get the ship modeler out of a warship only or tugboat only mindset and build a variety of model types. 

There are a number of model ship organizations that would have to agree to the standards you suggest for the manufacturere desides the IPMS and NRG.  The Scale Ship Modelers Associatio of North America, The SubCommittee, International Model Power Boating Association, North America Model Boat Association, American Model Yachting Association, and American Power Boating Association should also sign on to the standards.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Madison, Mississippi
Posted by Donnie on Friday, May 12, 2006 12:11 PM

I guess we have to accept that, since serious scale sailing ship modelers are so few in number, we just don't have the leverage to influence most of the manufacturers.

 

Every ship modelmaker is foaming at the mouth for each new ship issued and are somewhat demanding the quality to be there.


I agree whole heartedly of both of you. I guess my main deal is this: If I say to a freind or college that I am a Shipwright, for some reason (as an Adult), that has a better sound to it. But, at the same time, I am not going to go bragging to anyone especially HERE that I am a bonafide Shipwright when I am not one. This topic I am sure can go to an extreme and I am just curious is all. I certainly do not want to offend anyone either. It seems that this topic could be sensitive to some. I have humble roots ! I want everyone here to think of me as a modeling freind.

Donnie

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Madison, Mississippi
Posted by Donnie on Friday, May 12, 2006 12:33 PM
I need to go back for a minuite. I was trying to respond to this while at my office and I just did not get to voice what I was thinking.

I certainly do not consider myself a Shipwright. I do not know enough about ships to claim such a title.

period -

Donnie Smile [:)]

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

  • Member since
    June 2005
  • From: Walworth, NY
Posted by Powder Monkey on Friday, May 12, 2006 12:47 PM
Donnie,

We have all seen the pictures of your work. I think it is of excellent quality. If you want to call yourself a shipwright, go ahead. If you want to be a certified shipwright, I am prepared to offer official Powder Monkey Certification. ( for a small fee)Big Smile [:D]Wink [;)]

Seriously, I think you can call yourself a shipwright if you build ships. Maybe you can further qualify it as apprentice shipwright, shipwright, or master shipwright. I don't know how knowledge of ships fits in. Maybe that is a shipologist?

The important part is to have fun and not worry too much about it. Just stand tall and be proud of your work!

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Harrisburg, PA
Posted by Lufbery on Friday, May 12, 2006 1:46 PM
Hm, for what it's worth, I only think of shipwrights as people who build actual ships. I understand refering to a modeler as a shipwright in a metaphorical sense, but never literally.

I think "model shipwright" might be a good term for somebody whose work is truly fantastic. But, it should stay as an informal term.

Donnie, we've seen your work and it's excellent. Call yourself what ever you like. I simply say I build models, or I'm a modeler. Smile [:)]

Regards,

-Drew

Build what you like; like what you build.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Friday, May 12, 2006 1:59 PM

The American Heritage Dictionary, which I happen to have by my computer, defines "shipwright" as "one that builds or repairs ships."  That'll do for me.


   And among actual "shipwrights" there was a vast difference in attention to detail, and quality of work.


I do not think of myself as a -------wright of any kind. The closest I've ever come to a shipwright, was helping my father build an 8' yacht dinghy! I consider myself an amatuer model builder. The major part of my efforts have been in HO scale model railroading, so maybe I'm an HOlocowright, or, because I do a lot of scenery, maybe I'm a treewright. Whatever! The hobby exists because we enjoy the building, not to aquire a "label". The level of detail we strive to achieve, is a personal thing, it is what we are satisfied with, at the time. While I've not been here that long, and only posted a couple of pictures, I have been active as a model builder for almost 50 years. My "work" can be seen at www.the-gauge.com . I started as a ship modeler, but model railroading gave me a broader spectrum of things to build. I'm only now getting back to my first love, ships, and the sea.


   Somewhere here, in another post, I mentioned a 1/700 scale project. The first ship I served in, USS Lowry DD-770. 

 , and the first Carrier we went alongside to refuel at sea, USS Randolph CVS-15.  

 

  The project is in a holding status, because I do not yet have all the details worked out for "Randolph".  The point?, I set, maybe too high, the level of detail with the model of "lowry", and I feel committed to match it in the "Randolph" model. Not for praise, not for reward, but for personal satisfaction.


   So!, Not to be concerned with whether or not you can call yourself a "shipwright", rather, enjoy the process, each new success, each new thing learned......when we stop learning, we stop living.


Pete 

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Friday, May 12, 2006 2:10 PM
A Wright is a tradesperson who works a perfecting a certian aspect of the building trade.  Such specific titles are millwright, who throughout the years did all aspects of building in the mill industry, cabinetwright, wheelwright, shipwright, and housewright.   In todays terms, these titles have been combined into the title of general contractor or project manager, who is someone has a little experience in every aspect of the construction and relies on specific trade professionals, such as framers, finishers, masons, plumbers, pipfitters, drafstmen, welders, and electricians, to complete a construction.

As far as model shipwrights, about the only one who I could think of to use the title would be a scratchbuilder who builds on contract and who owns a shop that builds these models.  I would call many of the modelers who oversee builds for the movie industry shipwrights.


Scott

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