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Question on Correct Cannon colors, Prof. Tilley & Others

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  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Question on Correct Cannon colors, Prof. Tilley & Others
Posted by Big Jake on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 8:24 AM

On my Heller Chebec, I'm at the stage where I'm attempting to assemble the cannons. The inst. call for either bronze or black color.  In theat region and time frame would those ships be using Bronze cannons still.

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:54 PM

I don't know much about chebecs; I have the general impression that the Heller one represents a ship from the eighteenth century.  If so, bronze guns are entirely possible, but iron seems more likely. 

There's an interesting piece in the latest issue of Ships in Scale.  It's a discussion of the Swedish warship Wasa (1628).  The researchers have recently published some new findings on her color scheme, which apparently was quite different from how she's usually been depicted.  (Most paintings show her hull as being natural wood with a white bottom, blue bulwark planking, and gold carvings.  The curators now think her upper hull planking was deep red, and the carved ornamentation was painted in natural colors, with only a few highlights in gold leaf.  And there's no sign that her waterline was marked or that the hull below it was treated any differently than the above-water planking.)  The Wasa's guns are bronze; the gentleman who wrote the piece in SIS suggests  that, when in service, they would have been "purplish brown, not green."

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 5:28 PM

I think that if your build is earlier than the 1750s or if you consider the shipowner to be wealthy and prestige concious, brass is appropriate. If you have brass, what would be even more likely would be a mix of iron and brass guns (brass in the minority), with the brass aft.

By the middle of the 18th century brass guns were very rare. Brass had advantages over iron but had become prohibitively expensive by the end of the 17th century for general naval use when compared to iron. Metallurgical advances had eliminated most of the disadvantages of iron by the end of the 18th century.

Brass was much much more resistant to corrosion than iron. It was definitely more attractive than iron, but more importantly, it had a significant advantage over iron in a materials characteristic known as 'fracture toughness', the sensitivity to defects from casting or corrosion. As a result, brass guns were much less likely to burst than their iron counterparts (probably another basis for presitige... keeping the 'top brass' the farthest from those unreliable, cheap iron guns). Although brass was always more expensive, even during the 16th and early 17th century, brass was still economical due to the fact that it could be recast into new cannon, whereas the iron guns had to be discarded at the end of their relatively short service lives.  But during the 17th century iron guns got better and cheaper. By the middle of the 18th century, brass became reserved for prestige or special purpose pieces, of generally small caliber (4 pdr. or 6 pdr. pieces used on yachts, poop decks or small 'frontier' vessels where longevity was required - 18th century Spanish vessels in the Pacific for example). By the 19th century metallurgical advances in England with iron allowed shorter and lighter gun patterns, eliminating most of the technical advantages of brass.

Also, the popularity of brass diminished as naval doctrine focused on increased rates of fire. Brass retained more heat than iron and had poorer high temperature properties; the rate of fire was restricted by the brass gun's material properties, whereas with iron guns, rate of fire was restricted only by the crew's ability to feed and service the gun.

For both materials,  guns were 'brown', not black. Unattended, in salt air, brass guns turned a medium brown with a 'purplish' hue as mentioned above. But don't go overboard on the purple, it shouldn't look purple, it should just cool off the brown a little.  The effects of powder residue are to create darker spots and streaks where handled, so the guns should have a  subtle, mottled appearance. But since brass was a prestige item and crews were large on men-of-war and that we all know that an idle mind is the tool of the devil...  I'd use a bright finish on naval brass guns. For merchant ships and privateers.. brown and mottled.

Iron guns were polished and heated, then covered with what one observer described as a 'brown varnish'. An 1825 recipe for coating ordnance called for 40 lbs. of verdigris (greenish blue acetate of copper), 4 lbs. of 'Grant's black ground in oil', 3 lbs. of red lead, linseed oil and turpentine. If you can't find these ingredients, I would use a dark brown like burnt umber, maybe mixed with a little black and a touch of red for iron guns.

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:55 PM
Chebecs  (Zebec, or Xebecs) were found in the national fleets of major Mediterranean naval powers, but on the whole they were much less popular than normal square rigged warships, and got less popular as time went on.   So chebecs armed with a lot of guns would primarily be of the privateer or priate sort.  

Pirvateers vessels continued to use brass guns long after naval ships abandoned them.   It is known that ships normally paint even their brass guns.   But for special occassions, they would polish off the paint to let the brass gun shine in the sun.




  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 7:34 AM

I painted one cannon bronze, weathered and set it next to a black cannon However, I used a light rust weather on the "black cannon" the effect is quite different, depending on the gun carriage color it can make them really stand out.  I added some more picture to the webshots album and will add the cannon shots this weekend.

http://community.webshots.com/user/jbgroby

Right now I'm trying to figure out what size blocks to order so I can rig the little bums.  I figure it's big enough to rig a set of tackle to each gun. If I'm going to do a comeback model I might as well do for all it's worth.

 

Rod,

What size blocks do you recommend? I lost my caliper in th storm and have not replaced it yet.

Jake

 

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 12:17 PM

For the tackles on the guns, you're unlikely to find any commercially-available blocks that are too small.  My guess is that the smallest size Bluejacket offers would look about right - or  maybe the second-smallest size.

Count 'em up carefully before you order.  With four our six blocks on each gun (depending on whether you rig the after train tackles or not), they add up quickly - and so does the price.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 1:17 PM

The one shown in the Wilkins' book look like the 1/96th. scale and are the same type from the Constitution and are plastic, let me know what you think.  It's one of the b/w pictures in the booklet showing the rigging for the cannons.

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 7:43 PM

Jake

   On these cannons I used Model Master metalizer lacquer.The color Burnt Metal.I don't stir or shake the bottle.I take a small flat toothpick and get a gob of the metalizer out of the bottom.apply with a brush.every once and while I dip the brush in the thinner thats at the top of the bottle to help smooth out the paint.This gives you a metal with a hint of brass look.You can do the same thing with Burnt Iron on other style cannons.If need be you can go over it with a drybrush of  a darker color like black.Remember to use a dark color down the barrel.

Rod

  • Member since
    June 2005
  • From: Biloxi, Mississippi
Posted by Russ39 on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 8:35 PM

Jake:

Does it say anywhere what caliber the guns are supposed to represent? If not, what is the barrel length? With the barrel length and/or the caliber, I can look up the size block to use in a few reference books, if you are after the correct scale and all. Just let me know about the barrel size at least and I'll look it up for you.

Russ

 

 

 

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