War Graves Robbed.

This is what some people I know call a RCOB, Red Curtain Of Blood, where what you have just watched, witnessed or listened too has angered you so much that it makes your eyes bleed.

This is such a travesty that it is difficult to comprehend the mindset of the perpetrators.

I will be hitting the inbox of the above mentioned groups, and if I can think of more, I will post their addys here.

Great freaking Ghu, this makes me mad!

This issue is VERY sensitive, indeed. When Ballard first found Titanic he and his crew left a memorial plaque and they hoped that the site would be respected. Instead it's been mined for artifacts. I utterly refused to see the Titanic artifact exhibit when it was here in Seattle a few years ago because of that.

But ( and I am not gainsaying the war graves issue at all, believe me ) what can be said about the raising of CSS Hunley? Or the artifact recovery at USS Monitor? Or for that matter, raising Wasa? All were technically grave sites ( PARTICULARLY  Hunley ). What about ancient Roman or Greek galleys? Where and how do you draw the line?

That question postulated, I too am firmly against the looting of Indefatigable. Or Bismarck, for that matter.

Apropos of this subject, recent news was that there is a serious attempt to raise or remove Admiral Graf Spee, which has now become a hazard to shipping off Montevideo. An elderly surving crew member protested that not only is it a war grave, but from a practical viewpoint he cliams that the third scuttling charge never went off and therefore the wreck is highly dangerous as well and should not be disturbed.

 

The big problem with Titanic is that Ballard did not register the find in any way. He tried to keep the location secret, but one of the crew on the bridge was able to reverse engineer the course to the location. Ballard I think since has registered his claim on the wrecks he has found since then, including Bismark, Yorktown and some others if I am remembering correctly.

I agree that these wrecks should not be plundered indiscriminately out of respect for the men and women who lost their lives on them. I do like in some way however that some of the artifacts from Titanic have been saved since the wreck is deteriorating so badly. I went to the exhibit when it was here in Los Angeles becuase my daughter has been bitten by the Titanic bug, and it was chilling to see part of the side of the ship. It was very much the same feeling I got the first time I went to the Arizona memorial. I was speechless at the Arizona, and the same in the room with the side of the Titanic. I do like preserving part of the ship to keep it alive and real for future generations.

Steve

There is presently a discusison  going on here -

 

http://www.shipmodels.info/mwphpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7877&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Much of the salvage for these wrecks went on between the world wars and again up to the 1970s.  What is happening now is the recreational and profit seeking treasure hunters are now able to dive deep enough to wrecks and really maks a mess out of them.  And with the price of copper and nickel going into the $3 and $4 per lb dollar range, wrecks full of  these metals are gold mines to these treasure / salvage hunters.

I am for taking some items from the wrecks for historical and scientific good, but am against salvaging them for raw materials or for artifacts to decorate some millionairs office.

With so many ships waiting to be scrapped, I think this is a cheap way to go around the enviromental issues in order to get ferrerous metals.

Scott

Gerarddm wrote:

But ( and I am not gainsaying the war graves issue at all, believe me ) what can be said about the raising of CSS Hunley? Or the artifact recovery at USS Monitor? Or for that matter, raising Wasa? All were technically grave sites ( PARTICULARLY  Hunley ). What about ancient Roman or Greek galleys? Where and how do you draw the line?

A lot what goes on in this area ceratinly can be disturbing.  On the other hand, I see no point to going overboard in the other direction either.  In the case of CSS Hunley, the remains inside were properly buried ashore.  As long as it is done respectfully, I have no issues with it.  If one of souls lost on her had been my great-great-grand-father, I would feel the same, indee I would probably even feel a bit of closure.

As for USS Monitor, most of the crew survived with I think only 16 souls lost.  Did they even die inside Monitor, or since they were waiting for the Rhode Island's longboat, maybe they were simply swept to sea when she slid under.  More people were entombed aboard USS Squalus, but the Navy certainly didn't view here as a sacrosanct grave site and had no qualms with raising her and restoring her to service.

Like you, I'm not sure precisely at when and where lines should be drawn.  Some lines should be drawn, but viewing every piece of ground on which someone has died during the last two thousand years as being sacred is excessive.    

While I understand that sometimes salvage is nessicary sometimes it can go a bit too far first these warships went down with many crew still aboard ( if i remember correctly the british battlecruisers in particular were popping like firecrackers) so I understand that they are considered "War graves" how would people feel if they started digging up the normandy D-Day graveyards or Arlington national cemetary looking to salvage brass coffin handles? also how much unexploded ordinance are on those things,these were fully loaded Dreadnaughts just something the maritime agencys may want to think about before letting someone dive on the wrecks huh guys???

 Govt policy towards war graves and wreck sites seems to be quite vague.
Much seems to be indeed entrusted to the lap of the gods.
I picked up the following this morning whilst trawling the web for further info -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5026436.stm

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/show/nav.1278

http://www.veteransagency.mod.uk/textonly/remembrance/service_cas.htm

Contemporary British Government Policy on Wrecks

Where the location of a ship sunk by enemy action is known, that site is regarded as a war grave and remains undisturbed. Such a site in British territorial waters is protected by law. Her Majesty's Government is currently seeking further protection for such wrecks lying in international waters through UNESCO and bilateral agreements with other nations as appropriate.

Dr Lewis Moonie MP, the then Under Secretary of State for Defence, announced on 9th November 2001 that greater protection would be given to military wrecks and maritime graves, following rising concern over disturbance and trophy hunting by an irresponsible minority of divers. The Protection of Military Remains Act was passed in 1986, but its application to wrecks and sea graves had not previously been enforced. Following extensive consultation with both veterans' associations and the diving community, some wrecks were designated Controlled Sites, with all diving prohibited without a specific licence, or Protected Places, where diving will be permitted but on a strict 'Do Not Touch' basis. An initial 16 wrecks, in waters under UK jurisdiction, were designated Controlled Sites. And five in International Waters were designated Protected Places. This Statutory Instrument prohibits intrusive activity without a licence by UK nationals.
The Ministry of Defence is currently undertaking a rolling review of all known British military wrecks, and designating as appropriate.
The 16 wrecks initially designated as Controlled Sites were:

HMS A7 One of the first class of Royal Navy submarines, she failed to surface during a dive in Whitsand Bay on 16th January 1914. All 11 aboard were lost.

HMS AFFRAY A submarine lost in an unknown accident in 1951 off the Isle of Wight, with all 75 crew.

HMS BULWARK A battleship, she blew up at anchor at Sheerness on 26th November 1914, with the loss of 730 crew. Faulty ammunition is believed to have been the cause.

HMS DASHER An escort carrier, she was lost 27th March 1943 after an accident caused a catastrophic fuel explosion during operational training in the Clyde. 379 lost their lives.

HMS EXMOUTH A destroyer, sunk by a U-boat in the Moray Firth on 21st January 1940, with the loss of 189 lives.

HMS FORMIDABLE A battleship, sunk off Devon with the loss of 547 men, by a German U-boat on 30th December 1914.
HMS H5 Sunk in collision on 6th March 1918 off Anglesey. Those lost included a US naval officer.

HMS HAMPSHIRE An armoured cruiser, sunk by a mine 5th June 1916 off Scapa Flow whilst taking Lord Kitchener to a conference in Russia. He was among the 737 who were lost.

HMS NATAL An armoured cruiser which blew up in Cromarty harbour on 30th December 1915 with the loss of 421 officers and men, after a fire spread to a magazine.

HMS ROYAL OAK A battleship, sunk at anchor in Scapa Flow on 14th October 1939 by U47 with the loss of 833 lives.

HMS VANGUARD A battleship, she blew up on 9th July 1917 at Scapa Flow. There were only three survivors from the 670 aboard. The cause of the blast was never ascertained.

HMS SHEFFIELD A Type 42 destroyer, hit by an Argentine Exocet missile on 4th May 1982 off the Falklands, 20 crew losing their lives. The ship finally sank on 9th May 1982.

HMS COVENTRY A Type 42 destroyer, sunk by Argentine bombs off Pebble Island in the Falklands on 25th May 1982. 19 lives were lost.

HMS ANTELOPE A Type 21 frigate, hit by Argentine bombs on 23rd May 1982 in San Carlos Water, Falklands. The bombs failed to explode on impact, but one detonated whilst being defused. Two army bomb disposal officers were killed.

HMS ARDENT A Type 21 frigate, sunk after being hit by multiple Argentine bombs and rockets on 21st May 1982 off the Falklands. 22 lives were lost.

U-boat U12 The German government was invited to nominate a U-boat sunk in British waters to be classified as a Controlled Site.

The five wrecks to be designated Protected Places were:

RFA SIR GALAHAD A Royal Fleet Auxiliary landing ship, hit by Argentine air attack off Fitzroy in the Falklands on 8th June 1982, with the loss of 50 lives.

HMS GLOUCESTER A cruiser sunk off Crete on 22nd May 1941 by Luftwaffe dive-bombers with the loss of 736 lives.

HMS HOOD Battlecruiser, famously destroyed in action against the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen in the Denmark Straits on 24th May 1941. 1,418 lost, only three crew members survived.

HMS PRINCE OF WALES Battleship, sunk by Japanese aircraft off Malaysia on 10th December 1941.

HMS REPULSE Battlecruiser, sunk in company with HMS PRINCE OF WALES.

If any organsation is worth writing or emailing to I reckon it's this one -

Underwater Archaeology
DCMS
2-4 Cockspur St
London
SW1Y 5DH
Maritime@culture.gsi.gov.uk