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Pyro USS Constellation - 1797 or 1854?

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  • Member since
    April 2006
Posted by armchair sailor on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 10:28 AM

            Also adding to this discussion is the fact that the U.S.S. Olympia in Philadelphia is in such poor condition that they`ve had to close many of the lower decks to the public because the hull is in such bad shape. You would think that with all the millions people have , many of those millionaires would try to restore such a famous and valuable ship to better condition. I also read that the main deck was covered in concrete to protect it from leaks............. how much can that weigh ?  Let`s restore what we have........

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 9:15 PM

The building of full-size ship replicas is a complicated subject - and among professional historians and preservationists it's an extremely controversial one.

People who haven't tried it almost invariably underestimate the difficulties of such a project - starting with the cost.  As an example, a group of enthusiasts near my home decided they wanted to build a full-size replica of the gunboat C.S.S. Neuse.  (The remains of the original hull have survived, but they're in terrible condition; the idea was that the replica would show the public more effectively what the real ship looked like.)  Their first call was to a lumber dealer, whom they asked how much it would cost to buy the necessary amount of oak, juniper, and other types of wood necessary to reproduce the frames and other structural members of the ship.  The bid was something over $1,000,000.  So they started looking for ways to compromise - changing the frame spacing, making the structural members lighter, etc.  They've now just about finished the hull.  It doesn't look bad from the outside, but the interior bears only a vague resemblance to the actual ship.

Then came the question of the iron plating.  They gave up on that completely; the casemate on their replica is going to be "plated" with painted plywood.  Then come the questions of the guns, the engines, etc.  The finished replica will look something like the real Neuse from a distance - and may indeed be a valuable teaching aid.  But it won't satisfy any reasonable definition of historical accuracy.

If the replica is to operate, it's going to collide with modern safety standards - for good reason.  The tragic case of the first Pride of Baltimore comes to mind.  Watertight bulkheads, life preservers, and communications gear are necessities for modern operating vessels, but they play havoc with historical accuracy.

A replica of the Hartford would create even bigger problems.  The wood for her hull would be at least twice as expensive as that bid for the Neuse replica.  Reproducing the engine would, to all intents and purposes, be impossible.  The rigging would require hundreds - maybe thousands - of cast- and wrought-iron parts which few people nowadays know how to make.  And getting somebody to cast a set of Dahlgren guns....Folks, forget it.  It's just not going to happen.

Many historians and preservationists turn up their noses at replicas.  Such people point out that, especially in these rather trying times for such projects, there's only a certain amount of money available.  State historic site budget directors and philantropic people have to decide where that money is going to go.  It's often argued that actual, restored ships and maritime museums ought to have first claim on the available funds.  I'm aware, for instance, that a group in Philadelphia has been trying for at least twenty years to raise the money for a full-size replica of the frigate United States.  I'm sorry, but I'm opposed to that project.  Aside from the fact that such a replica would be extremely similar to a certain honest-to-goodness ship currently moored at Boston, the city of Philadelphia already has a maritime museum and several preserved ships (most notably the U.S.S. Olympia) that never have enough funding.  If wealthy Philadelphia maritime history enthusiasts are looking for places to put their money, there are more than enough already without creating a new one.

My own personal opinion is that replica ships can in fact be done well, and do have perfectly legitimate functions that can't be performed by anything else.  I'm a big fan of the three replica ships at Jamestown, the Elizabeth II, and several others I could name.  A reconstruction of the Santa Maria in my home town, Columbus, Ohio, isn't bad; it escaped the Coast Guard's requirements because it's permanently moored to a pier in the mighty Scioto River.  And the reconstructed Greek trireme Olympias has been a priceless source of information about how ancient warships worked - or didn't work.  In general, though, I'd rather see the money go to the restoration of real ships, and to maritime museums that exhibit real artifacts, than to "replicas" of dubious authenticity that, for entirely real practical reasons, simply cannot adhere to any standards of historical accuracy.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: istanbul/Turkey
Posted by kapudan_emir_effendi on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 12:31 PM

 jtilley wrote:
The photos make it clear that she was in terrible condition by that time.  Even if some organization had come up with the money to buy and restore her, the restoration process would have entailed virtually building a new ship.

So be it professor, why not to build a replica ? Smile [:)] It must not be so difficult to build a wooden ship replica. Japanese did build replicas of nearly every important meiji revolution warships. Chinese did an incredible first, and built the replica of a pre-dreadnought ! I saw an increasing worldwide interest towards nautical lore of the past. Replicas follow each other in virtually every corner of the globe. Why not to add one of hartford to that ? When you consider the degree of patriotism reached in USA, such a project may attract enough investment without much difficulty I think.

Don't surrender the ship !
  • Member since
    March 2006
Posted by jwintjes on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 10:16 AM
 jtilley wrote:

If one wanted to be truly obnoxious about it, one could, I suppose, argue that the U.S.S. Constitution is a surviving ship from the Civil War.  (She spent the war years as a schoolship at the U.S. Naval Academy, which had been moved from Annapolis to Newport, Rhode Island, for the duration.)



Ah, indeed, I forgot about that. Which somehow brings me to the plans mentioned in Cannon, I think (I hope my memory doesn't fail me) to turn her into a paddlewheeler. Do we know anything about how she might have looked after such a conversion?

Jorit
  • Member since
    January 2006
Posted by EPinniger on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 2:54 AM
The Royal Navy ironclad HMS Agincourt met a similar fate in 1960. The hull had been moored on the Medway as a coal hulk for many years before eventually being broken up.
Like the Hartford, it would have required a colossal amount of work and money to restore (AFAIK, the iron armour had been removed for scrap metal, only the wooden hull was left)
Thankfully HMS Warrior was more fortunate (this was also used as a coal hulk, but I believe its hull was basically intact, including armour, only the masts and fittings having been removed)

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, June 19, 2006 11:04 PM

If one wanted to be truly obnoxious about it, one could, I suppose, argue that the U.S.S. Constitution is a surviving ship from the Civil War.  (She spent the war years as a schoolship at the U.S. Naval Academy, which had been moved from Annapolis to Newport, Rhode Island, for the duration.)

When I was working at the Mariners' Museum I joined the large chorus of voices lamenting the scrapping of the Hartford.  She was broken up a few miles from the museum, at the Newport News Shipbuilding and Dry Dock Company, sometime in the mid-fifties.  A crew from the museum went on board her near the very end, took some pictures, and removed some relics.  The most prominent among the latter were the trailboards and the main fiferail.  They were still on exhibit when I was working there in the early eighties; I don't know whether they still are or not.   The story is that the stern was on fire while the curators were ripping pieces off the bow.  I seem to recall some corresponsdence to the effect that some other components - including a capstan, I think, ended up somewhere else.

The photos make it clear that she was in terrible condition by that time.  Even if some organization had come up with the money to buy and restore her, the restoration process would have entailed virtually building a new ship.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: istanbul/Turkey
Posted by kapudan_emir_effendi on Monday, June 19, 2006 5:30 PM
 jwintjes wrote:
as far as I know she's not only the last sailing vessel ever built for the navy, but also the last ship from the civil war still preserved.

Jorit



Yes Jorit, Constellation is the only ship that served in the civil war to reach us intact. I think it's a great shame on behalf of USN of not preserving Farragut's flagship Hartford. There are few ships in USN history and in the nautical history as whole, that participated so many battles and emerging victorious from all. Hartford's hulk was still existing in 1955. what a great loss of nautical heritage !
Don't surrender the ship !
  • Member since
    March 2006
Posted by jwintjes on Monday, June 19, 2006 5:06 AM
As an aside, the historical importance of the first Constellation notwithstanding I find it quite positive that she has been restored to her 1854 appearance - as far as I know she's not only the last sailing vessel ever built for the navy, but also the last ship from the civil war still preserved.

Jorit

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, June 18, 2006 10:47 PM

I think Jorit is correct:  the kit represents (more or less, with a great deal of simplification) the Constellation as she appeared in the 1960s.  At that time the people in charge of her were trying desperately to believe the fiction (as they've since acknowledged it to be) that the 1797 frigate and the existing ship in Baltimore were one and the same.  In the sixties and seventies they spent a great deal of time and money trying to make her look like a 1797 frigate - with results that were roundly condemned by most serious naval historians as just about the worst ship restoration project in U.S. history.

To convert that kit to the 1797 frigate would be extremely difficult - probably no easier than building a model of that vessel from scratch.  How much effort it would take to remove all the anachronisms from the kit and turn it into a more-or-less accurat model of the 1850s corvette I don't know.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2006
Posted by jwintjes on Sunday, June 18, 2006 5:02 PM
While I admit that I have next to no knowledge on this matter, the picture you posted doesn't look like the Constellation of 1854; that ship was a corvette (or sloop) with 22 guns on her gun deck and no guns on the spar deck. The kit however seems to have guns mounted above the gun deck in the manner of the first Constellation which if I remember correctly around 1810 shipped 28 18pdrs and 10 24pdr carronades.

The hull looks a bit more modern although it's hard to see from that angle how sharp her lines are; the 1854 corvette was said to have been an excellent sailer with fine lines - perhaps the model is indeed based on how the preserved Constellation looked back in the 1960s. I guess converting the model into the 1854 sloop might be easier than backdating her to the first Constellation - actually, I find that prospect quite attractive as very late sailing warships are rather thin on the ground.

But surely someone else far more knowledgeable can provide more precise information.

Jorit


  • Member since
    January 2006
Pyro USS Constellation - 1797 or 1854?
Posted by EPinniger on Sunday, June 18, 2006 12:09 PM
Yet another question from me, sorry! - but it's something I haven't been able to find the answer to.

Does anybody know if the Pyro/Lindberg small scale (about 1/250) kit of the USS Constellation represent the 18th-century frigate, or the 19th-century sloop?
The box art and description indicates it's the earlier ship. However I suspect the kit was based on the preserved Constellation (which is the 19th-century ship) and in the 1960s, when the kit was first made, the preserved ship was believed by most people to be the 18th-century one (it doesn't help that it was partially rebuilt as the 1797 Constellation!).
Here's a photo of the temporarily assembled model (hull and masts).


It definitely has a mid-19th-century look to me (then again, I'm no expert) and I suspect it represents the ship from this date. Whilst I can't find any large, clear photos of the preserved Constellation on http://www.constellation.org, the photos I have seen look a lot like the ship represented by the kit.
However, any advice would be appreciated!

I actually quite like the old Pyro sailing ships (providing you chuck out the moulded sails and shrouds) they're quite finely moulded and detailed, compact in size without being too small, and represent quite a large range of subjects.
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