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Heller Soleil Royal, First Pic of my build

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  • Member since
    February 2006
Heller Soleil Royal, First Pic of my build
Posted by Grymm on Monday, June 26, 2006 7:57 AM

Okay, I'm still not done with my Cutty Sark (gotta love endless rigging), but I decided to do a little more work on my Soleil Royal.  After seeing two pieces of artwork that someone directed me to, one of the stern, one of the bow, I decided to go with that color scheme instead of what the instructions call for.  Basically the entire ship is in royal blue, with black below the last wale, and white at and below the waterline.  All of the carvings, statuary, and wales are guilded.  Here's the first pic I took of the near finished hull.  I'm probably asking for trouble, but, what does everyone think?

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Monday, June 26, 2006 7:59 AM

Sorry for the bad pic, but you can at least see the ship.  Photobucket gives me headaches.

 

 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Monday, June 26, 2006 8:32 AM
I don't call myself an expert on this era, so I can only reply from a "fit and finish" point of view. Looks good to me! On the photo, I usually try to put some kind of neutral background behind the model. I have two sheets of foamcore, one white, one light blue, that I use to photograph  models on. When I get back from the NMRA convention, I have to do some repairs to a model that I had given to my wife, before the divorce. I'll take some digital shots of it, and see if I can put some of them up here.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Monday, June 26, 2006 9:26 AM
The pic was on the spur of the moment, so I didn't have time to set up a studio shot.  In the future, I will be doing exactly as you describe, using a neutral background in order for a good contrast.  This was just an early shot.  I'm hoping to get some more of the hull work done in the next couple of weeks, but I've taken a few days off from the models for some family time, so I need to get back to the Cutty Sark rigging.  But I'll have some more pics of the Soleil Royal up before too long.
  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 7:43 PM

Wow.  I was hoping for some input opinions.  I guess using the stern/bow artwork that I was using as reference.  I take it the history purists have no opinion.  From the research I've done so far, this blue scheme was actually used.

So, is it consensus to go with the regular scheme? 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:01 PM

Nice painting job.

I have the 1939 book "l'illustration" with the pictures you describe.

Hoping to see more soon.

Michel

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:17 PM

I've seen those "blue hull" pictures too; the scheme certainly looks believable.  The bottom of such a ship never would be pure white, of course, but ship models rarely if ever have truly "realistic" bottoms.  Given the sort of stuff that would adhere to them in real life, I don't think I'd want such a thing in my living room.

Are the hull halves glued together?  If so, are the gun carriages already in place?  If not, you're going to have a hard time fitting them; I'm pretty sure they won't fit through the gunports.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:31 PM
 Grymm wrote:

Wow.  I was hoping for some input opinions.  I guess using the stern/bow artwork that I was using as reference.  I take it the history purists have no opinion.  From the research I've done so far, this blue scheme was actually used.

So, is it consensus to go with the regular scheme? 




BTW, also notice the blue Soleil Royal, as depicted in the famous bow and stern illustration from the French national library, is configured quite unlike any of the modern models of Soleil Royal that has gained wide circulation.  

 I tend to think the blue illustration was historically correct, or at least more closely approximates Soleil Royal's 1690 configuration than the normal open gallery design widely depicted in modern models.    The style of the stern as shown in the blue illustration,  with round quarter galleries and architectural window styles conforming to the architectual practice then in vogue in France, closely match the detailed drawings of several major French warship whose designed was executed during the 1680-1690 period.   We know SR underwent a major modernization, comparable to RN's Great Repair, shortly before 1691.   It is quite probably that everything on the SR was brought up to date during that refit.

BTW, the only source of the design shown in Heller model that I can discover was the unfinished, 19th century conjectural model in the Paris Maritime museum.   I can find no other reference showing Soleil Royal in that configuration.   Yet that single questionable model seems to have formed, in absolute defiance of multiple lines of contrary evidence, the main foundation for all modern SR drawings and commerical models.


 
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:00 PM

Here's the only other contemporary source regarding the ship that I've happened to bump into.  It's a contemporary, tinted drawing (at least it gives every sign of being contemporary) in the Louvre:   http://arts-graphiques.louvre.fr/fo/visite?srv=mipe&idImgPrinc=1&idFicheOeuvre=9612&provenance=mfc&searchInit

It pretty clearly is intended to represent the same ship that the Heller kit and the 19th-century model in the Musee de la Marine do.  Most of the decorative elements (the animals on top of the transom, for instance) are too similar for coincidence.  But the number of windows in the transom differs, and the proportions (width relative to height) are quite a bit different.  It's pretty clear that the quarter galleries are open balconies.

Just what this drawing is - whether it's a preliminary design (to which the ship may or may not have been built) or a picture based on study of the finished ship - I don't know; the text on the Louvre website doesn't offer much help.  To my eye it's more believable than either the Musee de la Marine model or the Heller kit - but it doesn't provide definitive evidence.

The moral to all this seems to be that nobody really knows what that ship looked like.  That fact, however, doesn't change my low opinion of the Heller kit much.  It's possible that the ship's quarter galleries were indeed enclosed - either originally or as the result of a refit.  But it's pretty clear that the Heller designers made them that way because they (the Heller people) were looking at a side-view drawing or photo of the Musee de la Marine model, and misinterpreted it.  (The same goes for the gaping hole in the bow just aft of the figurehead.  There's just no way a ship would be built like that.  There are plenty of examples of seventeenth-century ships with "see-through" fretwork carvings in the knees of their heads - but not with huge voids like that.)  The Heller people clearly didn't understand that the hole in the MM model's bow was due to its being unfinished.  Then there are the uncambered decks, the unlikely spar dimensions, the sharp-pointed belaying pins, etc., etc.  That kit was not designed by people who had superior insights into the details of seventeenth-century French naval architecture.  It was designed by some superbly talented artisans who knew precious little about ships.

To each his own.  The perfect ship model kit has yet to be produced; I firmly believe that every individual hobbiest ought to feel free to establish his or her personal definition of what constitutes an acceptable level of detail and accuracy.  By my personal definition, the Heller Victory and the Revell Cutty Sark and Constitution - all of which undeniably have their problems - are more than acceptable as bases for scale models; the Heller Soleil Royal isn't.  But it's not for me to make that decision for anybody else.  Anybody who wants to spend lots of time on this kit certainly has my best wishes. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 7:29 AM

Here are the pictures I could find in "l'illustration" :

This is a very interesting huge book, large size, 600 pp, it can still be found on ebay, even if it was printed ca.1940.

Michel

 

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 7:59 AM

When I saw the artwork of the hull halves, I was just enamored by how beautiful the Royal Blue looked, so I had to do it.

JTilley.  Yes, the hull halves are together.  But, I have already been doing some test fits, and I should be okay.  I had thought about holding off putting them together, but came to the conclusion that I would be fine.  Thanks for the concern.

Now, about the waterline.  My Cutty Sark is weathered, the copper being streaked in green/white, with a slightly "dirty" look.  But, for the Soleil Royal I decided on a cleaner, pristine look, since this kit is going to possibly displayed in the living room.  Having the cleaner look will make it easier for my wife to display it there.  But, even as pristine, I should ask...should the waterline and down be an "off White?"

Thanks for the input guys.  I've found myself coming here more often looking for opinions.  I'm a terrible guage of my own skills (I'm actually not that good), so your input is important.  I'll have more pics up as I go.

  • Member since
    January 2006
Posted by EPinniger on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:10 AM
Your paint job looks very impressive so far!

This thread reminds me of a question I have. Most (maybe all?) of the Heller kits of 18th century French warships instruct you to paint the hull bottoms white or off-white to represent the "white stuff" lead/tallow anti-fouling coating.
However, wasn't copper plating used instead by this period of time? Did the French navy actually continue to use "white stuff" up to the late 18th/early 19th century, or is this another Heller inaccuracy?
  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: arizona
Posted by cthulhu77 on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:42 AM

Some ship modelers add yellow to their white to "age" it, but I prefer to use khaki...it gives the white a nice tallow-y appearance, yet is flat enough so that your wife won't flip out about the off colour...I understand the importance of that !

             greg

http://www.ewaldbros.com
  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:52 AM
Hmmm.  I could do a light spray of a Khaki tone over the white.  That would probably soften up the harsh white a bit.  Now that I'm staring at it again, I do see everyone's point.  The white is a bit on the harsh side.  Let me work with it this weekend and see how it comes out.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:52 AM

Here's a good, brief summary of the matter of bottom treatment during the period in question, from The Line of Battle:  The Sailing Warship, 1650-1840.  It's the relevant volume in the series Conway's History of the Ship, which, generally speaking, is an excellent place to look for the current state of scholarly thinking on such topics.  The author of this particular chapter is Brian Lavery, of the National Maritime Museum at Greenwich.  The quote is from pp. 143-144.

"The underwater hull of a ship was afffected by two main problems.  Weeds and barnacles could attache themselves to the planks, and drastically reduce the speed of the ship.  Even more serious was toredo navalis, or ship worm.  This flourished in the tropics, and could eat its way along the planks of the hull, making the ship totally unsafe.

"Until the late eighteenth century, the two problems were generally tackled separatelyl.   For protection against the worm, ships on the way to the West Indies or India were sheatehed.  A noxious composition, usually a mixture of hair and tar, was put over the underwater hull.  This was covered with light planks, usually 1/4in thick on British ships, but thicker on French.  It was hoped that the worm would confine iteself to the sheathing planks, and not attempt to penetrate the tar.

"For protection against weed, other antifouling compositions were used, and put on top of the sheathing if that had been applied.  In the seventeenth century the most common was a mixture of train oil, rosin or sulphur.  This gave a white appearance, and so was known in Britatin as 'white stuff.'  Around the middle of the century some ships were tallowed as well, though this was probably a way of getting a smooth, frictionless surface, rather than forthe protection of the hull.  A cheaper alternative to white stuff was 'black stuff,' made from pitch and tar.  Though the work of modelmakers and marine artists suggests that white stuff remained prevalent, most British ships of the first half of the eighteenth century were in fact coated with black stuff.  In the 1740s, 'brown stuff' became standard for British ships; it was black stuff mixed with sulphur, and was said to have some of the advantages of both compounds."

It sounds to me like "white stuff" would, when fresh, be a yellowish, greyish, off-white color.  The Model Shipways and Testor Acryl ranges of hobby paints both include colors called "hull tallow," which look about right to my eye.  After a hull treated with white stuff had been in the water for some time - well, I'm not sure I want to know exactly what it would have looked like.

The next few paragraphs of the book deal with the introduction of copper sheathing.  Mr. Lavery says the first experiments with it took place in the late 1750s.  The first attempts got off on the wrong foot, because the shipwrights were nailing the copper sheets to the hull planking with iron nails.  Copper plus iron plus saltwater equals electrolysis; within a year or two the copper around the nails got eaten away, and the copper started to fall off.  (The iron nailheads holding the planking to the frames also posed problems if they came into contact with the copper.)  The solution to the problem was to make the relevant bolts out of copper instead of iron.  Here's the essential paragraph from Mr. Lavery's chapter:

"In 1775 the struggle for American independence became open war, and in the following year it was decided to copper some small ships, despite the risks.  In 1779, afer the war had become general and the British navy was outnumbered, it was decided to copper ships of the line as a matter of policy.  There was not time to drive out the old iron bolts, so efforts were made to keep the copper from the iron by covering the hull with tar and brown paper before coppering.  This was enough as a temporary measure, but aftetr the war ended in 1783 it was decided to r-fasten thewhole fleet as ships cae into dock for repair.  The French, who had never been far beehdind int he development of coppering, adopted it at the same time, adn it became universal in other navies."

There was one more step in the evolutionary process - after the period covered by that particular book.  In the mid-nineteenth century it was discovered that a more durable sheathing material could be made by adding other elements to the copper.  "Muntz metal," sometimes known as "yellow metal," was introduced in 1830; initially it was 50% copper and 50% zinc.  In 1846 Mr. Muntz changed the formula to 60% copper, 40% zinc, and sometimes added a small percentage of tin.  (My source on this is George Campbell's China Tea Clippers.)  For the next couple of decades, ships were described as being "yellow mettalled," "coppered," or "brass bottomed."  (Brass, according to the dictionary I have in front of me, is typically 67% copper and 33% zinc.)  Sometime in the mid-nineteenth century, "anti-fouling paint," which had particles of copper and other metals mixed in with a vehicle in brushing consistency, came into use.  I don't have any precise dates, but my impression is that it was initially used for small craft and eventually, of course, came into use in large vessels.  By that time the wood hull was giving way to the iron one, which made metal sheathing irrelevant.

Bottom line:  Le Soleil Royal's bottom would have been painted with either "white stuff" or "black stuff" - probably the former.  The Victory and the Constitution would have been copper sheathed, and we know for a fact that the Cutty Sark was sheathed with Muntz metal. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 9:43 AM
Okay.  Hull Tallow.  An off-white color.  Off white yellow?  Off white tan?  I'm not up on colors....
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 9:53 AM
The "hull tallow" color from Testor's Acryl has a slight yellowish cast; I'd call it an extremely pale, yellowish cream.  But if you've reached this point, it's pretty much up to you.  I'm sure the actual colors of ships' bottoms varied a great deal.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 10:12 AM
 jtilley wrote:

Bottom line:  Le Soleil Royal's bottom would have been painted with either "white stuff" or "black stuff" - probably the former.  



The Paris National Library pictures suggest her bottom was painted black.  I understand that white bottoms were in fact comparatively rare compared to black bottoms.    But a white bottom would look better on the blue model.

Also, the Heller kit took a short cut and omitted the planking details from the bottom part of the underwater hull.   This is better hidden with a black bottom than a white one.



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