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Hella HMS Victory - Shrouds

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  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Australia
Hella HMS Victory - Shrouds
Posted by adouglas on Saturday, July 1, 2006 7:58 PM

HI All,

I am building the shrouds and would appreciate some advice as to what glue you consider to be the best to secure the foot ropes to the shroud ropes.

I have tried PVA and liquid cement, but if there are any others or certain techniques you have tried and were successful your assistance would be appreciated.

CheersBig Smile [:D]

Andrew

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Saturday, July 1, 2006 9:49 PM

The best glue to use on rigging is CA (super glue).I use the thin its easier to work with.Only a drop at  time.Use a needle with eye cut in half you apply it in a capillary action.

Rod

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, July 1, 2006 10:42 PM

We've discussed the Great Ratline Problem quite a few times here in the Forum.  I am among those who firmly believe that the jigs, "looms," and other gadgets provided in Heller (and other) kits are an utter waste of time and plastic.  The truth of the matter is that if you have the dexterity and patience to build that model at all (and anybody who's gotten as far as rigging the shrouds obviously does), you almost certainly have what it takes to rig the ratlines to scale.

Here are a couple of threads in which we've discussed the matter recently:  http://www.finescale.com/FSM/CS/forums/635510/ShowPost.aspx

http://www.finescale.com/FSM/CS/forums/619030/ShowPost.aspx

I say again:  try it the authentic, old-fashioned way, and give your fingers and eyeballs a fair chance to learn it.  The learning curve is kind of steep, but short.  My guess is that once you get the ratlines on one side of one mast rigged you'll be convinced you can do the rest - and you'll be wondering why so many people make such a fuss over rigging ratlines.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Sunday, July 2, 2006 2:08 AM

I have followed with interest and some dismay the ongoing threads about shrouds and ratlines.

I do find it something of a puzzle as to why anyone with the interest to seek information from forums such as this and the  patience to build this model, given the initial outlay and investment in time, wouldn't want to make it as good as they can.

There is a world of difference between the look of the model with the shrouds set up properly at the masthead in pairs and the oversimplified approach taken by Heller.

The fore and Main lower shrouds of Victory were 11" in circumference which equates to 0.9mm dia thread, at 1:100 scale. Heller provide 0.3mm dia thread for these and oddly  indicate the same size  for the Ratlines.

As John Tllley and other have said forget the Heller instructions and get the Longridge book. It is as easy to do it properly as fiddle around with the Heller nightmare loom and spots of glue.

The enhanced sense of satisfaction gained from knowing that the correct rigging practice as far as possible has been followed, is well worth the effort.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, July 2, 2006 8:42 AM

If my recollection is correct (these days my recollections frequently aren't), the Heller Victory kit does provide for the shrouds to be arranged properly around the mastheads.  The lower mastheads are molded separately, with long pegs on their bases that plug temporarily into the "ratline loom."  The modeler is supposed to set up the shrouds around the masthead, then unplug the masthead from the "loom" and plug it into the rest of the mast.  Maybe somebody who has the kit can correct me, but that's how I remember it.

The system really is quite ingenious in a way - if one accepts the fundamental premise that seems to lie behind it:  that rigging the ratlines after the shrouds and lower masts are in position on the model is simply too much of a task for the modeler complete.  That's where Heller and I part company.

The other problem concerns the deadeyes and lanyards.  Heller came up with a clever approach to that one, too:  molding the deadeyes on the sprues the (supposedly) correct distance apart, so the modeler can rig the lanyards before detaching the deadeyes from the sprue.  Good idea with two fundamental flaws.  One - the deadeyes don't work, because they don't have grooves around them.  (Imai seems to be the only company that's figured out how to mold a styrene deadeye or block with a groove around it and holes through it.  I didn't think it could be done, till I saw the Imai/Academy "Roman Warship" kit.)  Two - the Heller designers assumed that the spacing of all the deadeyes on a given mast is the same.  It isn't.  The shrouds "fan out" at the bottom; the one at the after end of the channel slopes at a considerably steeper angle than the foremost one.  The upper and lower rows of deadeyes are parallel.  So the linear distance between the two aftermost deadeyes is noticeably greater than the linear distance between the foremost ones.   If a set of deadeyes were rigged according to the Heller instructions, the sheer pole (the iron or wood pole that runs along the top of the upper row of deadeyes - absent from the Heller kit, but better made from wire than plastic anyway) would be on a pronouced slope.

As for ratlines - I don't feel entitled to criticize individual modelers, or to evaluate the manual dexterity of people I've never met (or even laid eyes on).  There unquestionably are folks out there whose fingers and eyesight are, indeed, not up to the task of rigging ratlines to scale.  My complaint lies not with the modelers, but with the manufacturers (whom I consider fair game in forums like this). 

Plastic sailing ship kits have been around since the mid-fifties, when three American companies decided, within two or three years of each other, to apply the new technology of injection styrene molding to that kind of subject.  Two of those companies, Aurora and Revell, seem to have concluded in the very beginning that rigging ratlines was beyond the capacity of the plastic modeler.  (The third, Pyro, simply ignored the problem.)  Aurora, in its primitive "Black Falcon Pirate Ship," molded something vaguely resembling shrouds and ratlines in styrene. (Even my brother and I, who were about fourteen and six years old at the time, thought those looked awful.)  The designers at Revell, in one of the worst decisions they ever made, came up with a system for making "shrouds and ratlines" out of plastic-coated thread; the modeler was supposed to cut them free from each other and (somehow or other) fasten them to the molded "deadeye and lanyard" assemblies and the mastheads.  Some of those early Revell sailing ships were beautifully detailed and quite accurate, but those plastic-coated thread concoctions made the finished models look pretty awful.  Serious ship modelers held them in contempt. 

That, I think, is one big reason why the sailing ship phase of plastic modeling has always been one of the least popular: it's never gained acceptance from the wider ship modeling fraternity.  Nowadays only an idiot would deny that a good plastic kit is a sound basis for a scale model of an aircraft or a tank - or, for that matter, a diesel locomotive.  Even the twentieth-century warship modelers seem to have accepted that plastic is a legitimate modeling medium.  But the vast majority of sailing ship modelers still think plastic kits are toys - largely, in my opoinion, because the manufacturers have convinced the public that the rigging of a plastic sailing ship kit has to look phony.  At the present time, this phase of plastic modeling is almost dead.  Revell released its last sailing ship in 1977; Heller and Airfix dropped out of the market shortly thereafter.  Pyro, Aurora, and Imai (probably the most intelligent and innovative of all) have long since gone out of business.  The remaining handful of plastic sailing ship enthusiasts is surviving on 30- to 50-year-old reissues (many of them bearing silly names, like "Captain Kidd" and "Jolly Roger") and on e-bay. 

To me personally, one particularly irritating feature of all this is that there clearly is a market for sailing ship kits.  Modelers by the thousands (probably the tens of thousands) shell out vast sums of money every year on HECEPOB (Hideously Expensive Continental European Plank-On-Bulkhead) wood kits from companies like Mamoli, Artesania Latina, Mantua, Corel, etc., etc.  By any objective standard of scale modeling, the vast majority of those kits are garbage.  They represent actual ships with far less fidelity than the typical plastic kit does.  Yet they've built up a following of modelers who, as soon as they've finished one or two HECEPOB kits, feel entitled to sneer at people who build plastic kits.  Why? Well, there are several reasons, but one of the big ones is that most of those HECEPOB enthusiasts have never seen a model based on a plastic kit whose shrouds and ratlines didn't look phony.

This sermon has, as usual, gone on far too long.  To people breaking into the hobby, I offer two suggestions on the basis of fifty years' experience.  One - read.  This is a hobby for people who like to read.  Sailing ship modeling opens a door into a spectacular world of literature - fiction and non-fiction - about models, real ships, and the people who built and sailed them. 

Two - don't underestimate your skills until you've given them a fair chance to develop a little bit.  I'm convinced that the average modeler, contrary to what the manufacturers seem to think, can rig ratlines to scale on a 1/100-scale model.  It takes some time, but not as much as you think (and probably not much more than it would take to make those Heller gadgets work).  OK, some unfortunate individuals lack the dexterity, or the close-range eyesight, to do it. (If I hadn't been born near-sighted I'm not sure I ever would have gotten into ship modeling.  And arthritis can make it difficult, if not impossible, to build models at all.)  But most people's fingers are perfectly capable of doing it once they get a little practice. 

The muscles and nerves of the human hand are amazing things.  Particularly impressive is their ability to learn.  Try rigging a ratline.  No, try rigging ten of them - and time yourself.  My guess is that the first one, on a ship like the Victory, will take fifteen or twenty minutes.  The second will take ten or twelve, and number ten will take four or five, and by the time you get to the top you'll be wondering what all the fuss was about.  More than one participant in this Forum has found out that, once he's given his fingers time to train themselves, rigging ratlines is actually a relaxing way to spend an evening.  And I can almost guarantee that the improvement in the appearance of the finished model will make you conclude that the time was well spent.

 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Sunday, July 2, 2006 11:22 AM

Jtilley you are correct about alot of the European wood kit not being really up to snuff especially for the price you have to pay.Over the years I've found the wood ship modelers looking down ther nose had me because I model in plastic.It use to really bother me, because I've always put a lot of time and effort in to my models.When I see shiney brass cannons and unpainted cast metal piece's on the sterns of these so called Museum quality model's I chuckle.When I see and HMS Victory whole hull done in walnut with not one drop of paint I just shake my head.But I respect these modelers for the effort they have put into there ships.I just hope they would give me the same.For me I'll hang with the plastic guys like you,Big Jake,Powder Monkey,Michel,Emir, Grymm,and the rest.

Now back to shrouds.I'm almost sixty years old and I do have some Arthritis in my fingers.So tying knots gets a little troublesome.Thats why I glue my rats on especially smaller models.For me it also gives it a more to scale look.It may not be the proper way but it looks good and makes the model look more reallistic.Remember you are modeling for one person yourself.Don't worry if someone says they read in a book this wasn't the way to do it if your happy thats all that counts and just keep modeling.

Rod

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, July 2, 2006 12:13 PM

I can certainly identify with anybody who's got arthritis problems.  It's walloped both my knees and one hip, to the point where there are some days when I have a good deal of trouble getting around.

During the past few years I've also noticed that my hands occasionally cramp up.  I'll be working on a model, holding a pair of tweezers, squeezing a pair of pliers, or otherwise working my fingers into some configuration they don't get into in the course of daily existence, and suddenly either the thumb, index finger, or little finger will lock up and start to hurt.  I literally have to grab it with the other hand to make it bend.  None of this, I suspect, is terribly unusual in a 55-year-old body.  But I've also noticed that if I make myself stick at it for a few hours, the muscles (or nerves, or whatever they are) seem to relax and behave themselves.  Again, it seems that fingers are capable of "learning," if they're given time and opportunity.

The dread bug seems to hit different people differently.  I've know people who've been nearly debilitated by arthritis in their forties.  I've also known some who, though they've wound up in wheelchairs, are still building incrdibly intricate models well into their eighties.  I try not to speculate on how long I personally will be able to keep it up.  But I do think building models is a good exercise for the finger muscles, and may well prolong their ability to function.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Tuesday, July 4, 2006 2:24 PM

As JTilley has said, there has been a lot of discussion on the subject of ratlines/shrouds, part of which I recently initiated.  I too have the Heller Victory kit and have been studying the ratline issue for over a month. 

Now, I am one who is a little arthritic in the hands.  tying all those knots on the Cutty Sark like I have been has become a bit painful (though I'm almost done), so I don't think I will be doing it with the Victory (that's well over a thousand knots).  So I've been working with the kit-included loom to come up with an easier way.

I tried a variety of glue, including CA.  Even CA is a bit troublesome to use.  If one drop gets a little too big, it can ruin the look of the whole thing.  Plus, not even CA is a guarantee that it will hold.  I'm currently investigating some industrial glues that will go on clear and be absorbed by the threads, yet still hold.  I'll post if I find anything that works.

What does work on the loom is literally using a needle and threading the ratline (footrope) through the shroud.  As said above, you do need the larger diameter shroud-string, so you'll need to pick that up.  But, threading the ratline through the shrouds while they are on the loom is fairly easy, can be done relatively quickly, are easy to adjust, and you can use virtually any glue you want to hold them in place.  Just be careful not to manhandle the shroud too much.  There were a couple of instances where I unraveled part of a shroud from handling it the wrong way.  But, threading works.

I would absolutely love to be able to knot the shrouds/ratlines by hand.  I envy the skill and patience whenever I see JTilley's work.  But I know that it will be many years before I come even close to that level.  And I'll need a lot of painkillers for my hands.   So for now, I will be content to thread through my shrouds.

As far as the book on the vessel, I just can't get it right now, so I'll have to go with the instructions and what information I find on the web, unless someone out there has an extra copy that they are willing to part with...

Hey, it's all about having fun anyway, right?  So do what you feel will look best, and be most accomodating to you physically...I'm sure your Victory will look spectacular.

On that note, there are several people here that have either started, or will be starting their own Victory like we are.  Keep in touch and we'll compare notes.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 5:07 PM
This may seem like an incredibly stupid, ignorant question; could somebody please explain how Heller "coded" the rigging chart on the Victory?  I may as well try reading ancient Greek.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 5:20 PM

You're right:  decoding that infernal document would require an Ultra machine.  And the page about rigging the shrouds isn't the only problem.  As we've established several times before in different threads of the Forum, that entire Heller instruction book is a good candidate for the wastebasket.

I suggest once more:  give either the clove hitch method or the needle-through-the-shroud method a try.  It's not as difficult as you may think - and I suspect it's actually easier than using that ridiculous jig, or loom, or whatever they call it.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 9:50 PM

Does anybody have any recommendations on how to color the various rigging?  Heller suggests either strong tea or coffee, but in my opinion that hardly resembles anything found on the actual Victory.  I don't ever recall seeing a picture of the Victory with brown shrouds, ratlines, etc. ...

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 10:42 PM

Welcome to the Forum!

I have always tried to resist any temptation to assert that there are "right" and "wrong" ways of doing anything in ship modeling.  In my opinion there are many, many right ways to do everything - and the definition of "wrong" ought to lie with the individual modeler.  I do, however, make two exceptions - based not only on the accumulated wisdom of other modelers but on bitter personal experience.  One - never use lead for any purpose.  Two - never use tea for anything except refreshment.

Fabric dyed with tea turns darker - much darker - over time, and tea contains tannic acid, which literally dissolves many fabrics.  A few years ago I did a restoration job on a big model of a British frigate that was (I concluded) somewhat over a hundred years old.  The sails were made from either silk or linen handkerchief material (it was hard to tell which), and quite evidently had been dyed with tea.  I imagine their original color was a very pale beige, which probably looked really nice.  By the time I got the model, though, they'd turned an ugly dark brown.  And they were falling apart.  Several of them had actually ripped into pieces.  When I tried to wash them, they started to crumble under even the most gentle pressure.

I called up a friend who was in charge of fabric conservation at Colonial Williamsburg.  He explained that what I was seeing was the effect of tannic acid - that the "rips" were in fact "fabric breaks," where the individual fibers had literally disintegrated.  His best suggestion for restoring the sails was to dribble a highly dilute solution of Ivory soap and distilled water on them, let them air dry, and put the pieces back together by ironing a synthetic mesh onto their backs.  The client was satisfied with the results, but I wasn't.  I'd heard before about the destructive habits of tea; I'll never have anything to do with it other than drinking it.

I don't know enough about chemistry to comment on whether coffee is any better or worse, but I certainly don't trust it.  There are too many better ways to produce the desired colors for rigging line.

The most obvious is the best:  buy line that's dyed the right color in the first place by the manufacturer.  There's room for some argument about the correct colors for rigging line on a ship like the Victory.  We've discussed the topic several times here in the Forum; in brief, the bottom line seems to be that the standing rigging should be black (or an extremely dark brownish-black), because it was treated after it was set up with a mixture of tar, lampblack, and probably some other ingredients.  The running rigging was probably a rich medium brown, the color of hemp rope that was soaked in Stockholm tar during the manufacturing process.  As it got older it probably faded, eventually turning a dull, greyish tan - about like the color of natural rope we're used to seeing today.

There are lots of sources for rigging line.  My favorite is silk, but it's hard to find nowadays.  Model Shipways (distributed by Model Expo:  www.modelexpoonline.com) sells a "cotton-poly mix" that I've used (though not a great deal) with good results.  It comes in black and a nice, ropelike color and a texture that really looks like miniature rope.

Lots of veteran modelers swear by linen line.  Bluejacket (www.bluejacketinc.com) sells a good range of high-quality linen, but it only comes in black and white.  The white stuff can, of course, be dyed; if you decide to go that route, the thing to do is buy some high-quality fabric dye.  But there's no good reason to use tea or coffee - and plenty of excellent reasons not to.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    June 2005
  • From: Walworth, NY
Posted by Powder Monkey on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 11:11 PM
Coffee also contains tannic acid so I imagine it will have the same effects as tea. I would stick with the fabric dyes. You should find the color you need.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 13, 2006 7:12 PM
Modelexpoonline.com has some great stuff.  Very helpful.  What size line is best for the hawsers?  I would imagine something in the 1.5-2mm range for Victory.  The line provided with the kit doesn't seem big enough to me, and aside from that, .30mm and .60mm line is not the easiest thing to track down.
  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Friday, July 14, 2006 1:01 PM

You are right to be suspicious of the Heller rigging sizes and for that matter their whole approach to the rigging of this model. Their belaying points cannot be relied upon, and one of the biggest anomolies is their use of 0.3mm dia line for both lower shrouds and ratlines. The scale size for the Fore and Main lower shrouds is 0.89mm dia, and the Ratlines 0.1mm dia.

The Victory anchor cable was 27" in circumference which equates to 2mm dia scale size.

I would suggest that you forget rigging with only the Heller provided line, as if you wish to do it properly you will require scale line ranging from 0.1mm dia to 2mm. Most of the standing and running rigging lines fall within the 0.25mm to 1.50mm range and certainly in the UK commercially produced rigging cord is available in sizes 0.1, 0.25, 0.5, 0.75, 0.8, 1.0, 1.2, 1.25, 1.6, 1.75, 2.00 and 2.5mm diameters.

There are some lines that fall within the 0.3mm and 0.6mm dia requirement but the trick is to get the colours to more or less match unless you are using black.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Saturday, July 15, 2006 7:36 AM

Okay, since I'm facing the rigging of Heller's Victory in the future, I have a question.  Bear in mind, I'm genericising things just a bit.  I realize that there were a multitude of diameters of ropes used in rigging Victory.  But, for purposes of me (the slightly above average modeller), I would like to cut it down a bit for my build.  Here's the breakdown of lines:

Standing Rigging

Shrouds

Running Rigging

For the standing rigging, I'm 2-3 different diameters, in black.  What diameters would be most desired for this purpose?

For the shrouds there will be two diameters.  Will .90 and .10 be sufficient?

Running rigging will be tan.  I will be using 3 different diameters.  What diameters would one suggest.

I know this may simplify rigging too much for some, but I'm not looking for a museum piece.  I'm looking for something I can be proud of.  Thanks...

Grymm

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, July 15, 2006 7:53 AM

Well, if you want to limit yourself to three lines of each color, I guess a logical approach would be to get the largest diameter that's offered in the brand you buy (the Model Shipways "cotton-poly mix" seems to be getting good reviews here), the smallest, and one halfway between.  (The largest won't be too big for the fattest lines on the ship; in fact the thickest available probably will be too fine for the biggest standing rigging.  And you'll definitely need a considerable quantity of the finest thread you can get.)

But, if you don't mind my asking, why only three?  The stuff isn't expensive, and the price doesn't vary significantly with the diameter.  Nor is one size any easier to work with than another.  Varying the sizes of line may be the easiest - and cheapest - way to improve the appearance of the model.  Wouldn't it make more sense to get a spool of each size that's offered?

In any case, if you haven't started building the model yet, you're a long way from needing to worry about any of this.  Even if you started working on the hull today, you'd be several months (at least) away from the first rigging lines.  And I fervently hope that by the time you reach that point, you'll be able to acquire at least one decent book about the subject.  The rigging instructions in the Heller Victory kit are so bad that I really question whether it's possible to rig a model according to them.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Saturday, July 15, 2006 10:35 PM

I wish I had your perseverance JTilley, I really wish I did.  You're a master at the craft, and a stickler for accuracy.  I envy that.  The timetable for building the Victory is unlike anything I have undertaken before.  I can rig a ship.   But the Victory's rigging, and the Soleil Royal for that matter, is on an entirely new level for me.  I agree that the rigging line included with the kits is nowhere close to what is needed for accuracy.  But, to use the multitudes of diameters and shades of line, to know where each is supposed to be used...the sheer detail of it, is a bit overwhelming for me at this point in time, what with a full class schedule on top of a full time job, and 4 kids, one of which is moving out into the world as we speak with her own career (which is taxing me emotionally.  My little girl has grown up).  So I will simplify things a bit.  Keep the rigging to 3 of each type.  It will still be a fine looking model, this I know.  And to the untrained eye, it will be something to behold.  But it will just be easier for me, the "just-above-amatuer modeller", who has way too much on his plate on a daily basis, to complete.  And through the build, I will keep my sanity and get a break from my gruelling schedule.

Believe me, I understand where your coming from JTilley.  This will certainly not be the last kit I build.  There's wood kits in my future, and I will become a detail freak with them.  But just not right now.

So, with that, I know that standing rigging needs to be thick.  What diameters should I get?  I will probably have to "roll" some of my own for a few of the standing lines in order to get them thicker.  What would be a good choice?  The same with the running rigging.  What diameters would be a good choice?  I know rigging is a bit down the road, but I do at least want to gather my materials now....

Thanks guys,

oh, and by no means do I mean to offend you JTilley.  I have come to have an amazing amount of respect for you and would love to one day sit down for some coffee with you.  You're sheer knowledge amazes me.

 

Grymm

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Sunday, July 16, 2006 8:13 AM

You pose a tricky choice question Grymm.

I can't bring myself to go for less than (4) sizes on the standing rigging, but if absolutely pressed this would be my selection:

Standing Rigging

1.50mm dia line - Main and Fore stays

0.75mm dia line - lower shrouds

0.5mm dia line - other stays

0.25mm dia line - higher stays. backstays etc

Running rigging

Lines of dia 0.5mm 0.25mm and 0.1mm should cover most requirements.

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: portland oregon area
Posted by starduster on Sunday, July 16, 2006 11:27 AM

     Gentelmen, I've been reading all the posts here since I injured my leg the other day and am confined to my house for a few more days catching up on all the great modeling news, in reading about millard and jtilly's arthritis I'm 62 and I've had inflammatory rheumatoid arthritis since the early 1970's and for the last 3 years I've been taking weekly injections of methotrexate, a cancer drug to ease the pain and to reduce the redness and swelling in my joints, after years of almost paralyzing pain in my fingers and hands and shoulders not being able to raise my arms I'm able to do things now that I used to do, this truly is a wonder drug.

  Questions, what scale is the Victory that you are all working on ? and would it help to have someone take photos of the various methods of making the shrouds and ratlines and the methods of tieing them off ? I think photos would be very helpfull in clarifying what has been written so far about this issue, what would the dia thread be for the Jolly Roger and the Captian Kidd  as my son has just bought these two ships he's getting intrested in these ships as well, thanks again for all the incredible informantion you guys have given.  Karl

photograph what intrests you today.....because tomorrow it may not exist.
  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Sunday, July 16, 2006 12:07 PM

The kit is the 1/100 scale Heller HMS Victory.  The line included with the kit would be adequate for the average modeller but out of the question for the master modeller.  I'm kind of in-between, leaning towards the more amatuer, due to limited but growing experience with rigging.  Tying off rigging, siezing, and whatnot is not really an issue.  Simplifying the rigging to something that looks good to the untrained eye and adequate to a more trained eye is what I'm going for. 

Thanks for the diameter suggestions.  I'll look into the sizes and make my purchases...thanks again.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Sunday, July 16, 2006 12:50 PM
 starduster wrote:

     Gentelmen, I've been reading all the posts here since I injured my leg the other day and am confined to my house for a few more days catching up on all the great modeling news, in reading about millard and jtilly's arthritis I'm 62 and I've had inflammatory rheumatoid arthritis since the early 1970's and for the last 3 years I've been taking weekly injections of methotrexate, a cancer drug to ease the pain and to reduce the redness and swelling in my joints, after years of almost paralyzing pain in my fingers and hands and shoulders not being able to raise my arms I'm able to do things now that I used to do, this truly is a wonder drug.

  Questions, what scale is the Victory that you are all working on ? and would it help to have someone take photos of the various methods of making the shrouds and ratlines and the methods of tieing them off ? I think photos would be very helpfull in clarifying what has been written so far about this issue, what would the dia thread be for the Jolly Roger and the Captian Kidd  as my son has just bought these two ships he's getting intrested in these ships as well, thanks again for all the incredible informantion you guys have given.  Karl

Arthritis is minimal for me right now.  The nerve damage and back damage I got while in the military is primarily in my legs and lower back. Give me another 20 years and things will probably be different.  For now, anti-inflammatories and pain killers do the trick.

The Jolly Roger and Captain Kidd kits are wonderful kits and are actually just re-named ships of other kits.  The rigging is pretty simple.  Now, the Heller Victory and Soleil Royal are on an entire different level.  From a quality standpoint, IMHO, you can't find better molds.  Simply put, they are beautiful.  But, the instructions are a nightmare and many people say to just throw them out because of their complexity.  The Victory is a lot easier to work with than the Soleil Royal.  But, on both kits, the rigging is the most complicated and detailed that you will find on any plastic kit.

There has also been much debate on the Soleil Royale and the fact that Heller just flat out got many of the ships details and architecture wrong.  But, for me, I don't really worry about such things.  Both kits are a challenge and look stunning when complete.  Just be prepared to spend a heck of a lot of time on them.  I'm giving myself at least 1 year to work and finish the Victory, and that's being liberal.  It will probably take longer.

A couple of kits I do recommend that are not as complex as the Heller kits, but are a challenge in of themselves would be the Revell kits 1/96 constitution and 1/96 Cutty Sark.  I am busy rigging the Cutty Sark and it looks incredible and is a blast to do.   Just check Ebay and you'll find them being auctioned all the time....

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, July 16, 2006 4:31 PM

I'll just make four points and then shut up.  First - the problem with the rigging instructions for the Heller Soleil Royal and Victory is not that they're so complex, but that the people responsible for writing them (especially the alleged "translations" into English) were incompetent.  There's no need whatever to turn the rigging of a ship model into such an incomprehensible mass of numbers and badly-drawn diagrams.  And some of the mistakes in those instructions are downright mind-boggling.  How anybody with any interest whatever in sailing ships could think that yards aren't fastened to masts is beyond my comprehension.  That such a person would attempt to tell somebody else how to rig a ship model - and charge money for the information - borders on criminality.

Second - the real ships represented by the two Lindberg kits actually had rigging that was, in most respects, just as complex as those represented by the big Heller kits.  The Lindberg "Jolly Roger" is a reissue of the French eighteenth-century frigate La Flore, whose rigging was quite similar in most respects to that of the Victory.  The Lindberg "Captain Kidd" is a reissue of the German two-decked warship Wappen von Hamburg, whose rigging looked quite a bit like that of the Soleil Royal.  Most modelers vary the amount of rigging they install according to the scale of the model.  Those two Lindberg kits are on a relatively small scale, hence most modelers install less rigging on them. 

The instructions in the big Revell kits do a reasonably good, intelligent job of simplifying rigging while preserving the basic concepts of it.  I don't think much of Revell's methods of handling shrouds, ratlines, deadeyes, and lanyards, but their rigging diagrams generally make sense.  They don't, for example, show how lower stays were secured around mastheads, and in general they make things less complicated than an experienced modeler would like them in an ideal world, but the people responsible for those diagrams clearly knew what they were doing.  The people responsible for the Heller ones didn't.

The truth of the matter is that every modeler simplifies rigging to some extent.  What varies from model to model, and from modeler to modeler, is the degree of simplification.  My little frigate Hancock has every piece of rope on it that I thought I could justify.  But the sheaves in its blocks don't move, the ends of its ratlines are knotted (rather than eye-spliced) to the shrouds, and some of the lines that ought to have three strands actually have two.  The model with absolutely complete, absolutely accurate rigging has yet to be built. 

In this respect, as in so many others, the plastic kit company that beat them all, in my personal opinion, was the Japanese firm Imai.  The Imai 1/125 Cutty Sark, in my opinion, is the best representation of that ship yet to be made available in kit form - plastic, wood, or otherwise.  And the rigging diagrams are skillfully conceived to present a simplification of the real ship's rigging - not an arbitrary collection of threads.  Unfortunately, Imai went out of business about twenty years ago.  Some of its kits have resurfaced recently under the Academy and Aoshima labels, though - but unfortunately the prices are pretty staggering.

Third - let's be careful with that word "amateur."  It doesn't imply anything whatever about the skill, ability, or knowledge of the modeler; it just indicates that he/she doesn't get paid for building models.  Some of the best, and some of the worst, ship models I've ever seen have been built by professionals.  (Think of those..things...that are sold in discount stores - the ones with spray-painted burlap "sails" and ludicrously oversized "cannon" sticking out of their hulls.  The people who built them were professional ship modelers.)  I've been building ship models for fifty years, and I'm an amateur - and have every intention of remaining one.  I've done some restoration work on old models for money, but the last time I actually took somebody's money for building a model was when I was in the sixth grade.  I have no desire whatever to build models for money - or to build them to deadlines.  I have to contend with enough deadlines in my real job. 

Fourth - in confronting a big ship model project planning ahead is always a good idea, but it makes sense to be most concerned with the jobs that have to be tackled in the immediate future.   As I've said several times already - and I know you're sick of hearing it - the only way to compensate for those awful instructions in the Heller kits is to get hold of a book or two.  Internet forums like this one are great, but there's just no way anybody can learn how to rig a ship model by means of web posts.  The books in question don't have to be expensive.  A used paperback copy of Anderson's The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast can, as we established in another thread some weeks back, be had for less than $10.00, and contains everything anybody needs to know to rig a model of the Soleil Royal.  The Campbell plans of the Cutty Sark, which contain almost enough information to build the ship herself (on three sheets of paper), cost $15.00.  The Longridge book on the Victory, unfortunately, is pretty expensive, but it can be obtained through Inter-Library Loan. How any hobbiest spends his money and time is his business - certainly not mine.  But if you're working on the Soleil Royal and cash is scarce (as it is for most of us - certainly for me), wouldn't it make more sense to spend $10.00 on a copy of the Anderson book, rather than on a massive stock of rigging thread for a model you haven't started yet? 

I guarantee that the rigging of that ship, presented by an author who knows what he's talking about, will start to make sense almost immediately.  Instead of huge, incomprehensible diagrams, Dr. Anderson breaks the subject down into individual spars and lines.  He describes, in clear, friendly English, what each rope does, how big it is, and how it leads - and he gives you an individual drawing of it to clear up any questions.  He also includes a collection of photos of contemporary models, so you can see how everything fits together.  Armed with that information, you can decide for yourself which lines are the most important, and which can reasonably be omitted from your first model and left for your tenth one.

Now, as promised, I'll shut up.  These are your models.  It's not for me or anybody else to tell you how to build them.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Monday, July 17, 2006 8:07 AM

Straight forward and correct as always JTilley.  But, from my perspective, when putting one of my builds up against you Hancock, you are in no way, an amatuer.  My perspective, mind you.  But that's for another debate.

I actually got a hold of one of the books you mentioned.  I must be more stupid than I even thought.  Even that book (for the Soleil Royale), will take time to decipher. 

Yes, both of the Lindberg kits can have very complicated rigging.  But, as JTilley points out, with the right resources, you can complicate the rigging to your desire.  Straight from the box though, as 95% of the modelling population builds their kits, the rigging is a lot easier to work with as it is and still makes a fine looking model.

I've got a long way to go before any heavy rigging on either of the Heller kits, true, and planning is critical if you're going to use the instructions for rigging provided.  I've already got several pages of notes and I am looking for the books in order to have a reference.

And last, then I too will shut up, I come from the world of "build it from the box", so taking a kit beyond what is in the instructions, is still relatively new to me.  So I still have that perspective in my head.  A fine model can be built using the instructions, and a few pics of the actual ship (if available) and pics of other peoples builds will give you a great kit.  Just have fun and determine what works for you.  Post your work and finished builds on the forum for all to see.  Nobody here will ever negatively criticize your work. 

Just have fun with it and who cares what anyone else says...

Now, back to figuring out how to tie off this stay.....  :)

Grymm... 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, July 17, 2006 1:49 PM

When I was working at the Mariners' Museum we got into a lengthy discussion about the terms "professional modeler" and "amateur modeler."  The subject came up when I was asked to draft a set of rules for the next of the once-every-five-years model competitions the museum sponsored in those days.  A couple of competitors in the first competition suggested that professionals and amateurs should compete in different categories.

After considerable discussion and consultation with some experts, we decided against that approach.  The competition was supposed to recognize quality models - in terms of research, accuracy, technique, etc.  There is no direct relationship between those attributes and the amateur/professional status of the modeler. 

The professional has some advantages over the amateur.  The professional can (indeed probably has to) devote many hours per day to the model; that lets him/her "get in the groove," which in some aspects of modeling can be highly desireable.  The pro also probably finds it easier to acquire tools, reference books, materials, etc.  (My workshop and library would be considerably better equipped if I could claim the money I spend on tools and books as business expenses on my tax return.)

On the other hand, the professional has to work according to a schedule, and has to be governed by a price.  If he/she makes a mistake and has to tear something apart and start over, that costs money.  For the same reason, the pro can't afford to experiment as much with new techniques and materials.  And the pro has to crank out models at a certain, considerable pace in order to make even a modest living.

One example may help.  I spent something in the region of a thousand hours on my little model of the frigate Hancock, spread extremely inconsistently over a period of 6 1/2 years.  If I'd been working on that model full-time, I might have been able to do it in six months (assuming I could have stuck with it for eight hours a day, five days a week - which I probably couldn't have done).  Shortly after I finished it, I happened to have it at a convention that was also attended by a friend who was in charge of the ship model brokerage at Mystic Seaport.  He tried briefly to convince me to let him sell the model for me.  He thought he could get, as he put it, "at least $15,000" for it.  (Those were 1984 dollars.)  That sounded tempting - till he went on to explain that his firm's standard commission was 40 percent.  That would have left me with $9,000 - before I paid income and Social Security (self-employment) taxes on it.  If I could have cranked out two models like that per year, and sold each of them immediately, I might have made $15,000 or $16,000 per year - more than the MM was paying me, as a matter of fact (which is why Tilley went to ECU), but hardly a generous income.  Take out of that the expenses of materials, tools, reference materials, etc., and you begin to see why so few professional modelers make really good scale models.  Some do.  (The names McNarry, Hahn, Napier, Ough, and Reed come to mind immediately.)  But most find that, in order to make a living, they have to make compromises in terms of detail and quality.  Rather than working up to a standard, they have to work down to a price.

The amateur, on the other hand, can build what he wants, when he wants to build it, to his own standard, to his own deadline.  He can experiment to his heart's content, redo anything that doesn't satisfy him, and have fun.  Most professional modelers I've met tell me they envy the amateurs.

I think this extract from the definition in the American Heritage Dictionary sums up the matter pretty well: 

amateur n. 1.  A person who engages in an art, a science, a study, or an athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession....(French, from Latin amator, lover, from amare, to love.)

Maybe we need some vocabulary words to distinguish between levels of quality in model building.  But "professional" and "amateur" just don't do the job.

I do want to correct something I typed in my last post, wherein I said that the truly completely rigged ship model hasn't been built yet.  I remembered one model that, I think, does in fact meet the definition:  the model of the whaling bark Lagoda, in the Whaling Museum at New Bedford, Massachusetts.  The model is on 1/2 scale.  (That's not 1/2" = 1',  but 1/2.)  The model is about fifty feet long.  It was built - and rigged - early in the twentieth century by people who had been involved in the construction and rigging of the real sailing whaleships, and it literally reproduces every part of the original.  Those who want to emulate that project and build 50'-long models certainly have my best wishes.  Everybody else needs to acknowledge that his/her models are simplified to some degree or other.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, July 17, 2006 2:46 PM
The rigging as presented by Heller makes my head spin, so much in fact I have seriousy considered rigging nothing but the lower masts and partial shrouds/ratlines with a few other details.  I am wondering if anyone else has had the same thought or knows of anybody who has done this and what the end-product looks like.  I feel limiting the rigging on model of this quality (sans Heller's interpretation of "diagrams") would not do justice to it, on the other hand I am somewhat of a novice modeller myself and I want to do the best job I can.  I want it to be something I can be proud of for years.  I have already taken some creative liberties with the stern galleries (railings are solid black), "bronze" color below waterline, and the M2 mixture is more of a seafoam green than on the actual Victory.  I am pleased with these changes, though deviating in accuracy too much from the original is not my intended goal.
  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 8:03 AM

Make the model as you envision it.  That's what I always say.  As for the rigging, I've known several people who never went past the lower masts, believing the model was stunning at that stage.  And yes, the rigging instructions were truly written by satan.  They are insane.  JTilley mentioned a very good book that really makes it easier to do the rigging (yeah JTilley, I said that).  I'm currently deciphering the kit included rigging instructions and finding the book.  The bowsprit alone is the most insanely written rigging diagram I have ever seen.  But, had it been written cleaner, I imagine we would have had a 100+ page set of instructions.

Just build, paint, and enjoy.  That's the thrill of modelling.  Escape.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 8:49 AM

If the Heller rigging instructions had been written competently, they'd look about like the rigging instructions in the Revell kits.  That is, they'd provide a clear, understandable guide to installing a somewhat simplified version of the real ship's rigging - sensible, rational, within the capacity of any decent modeler, while providing a basis for the experienced enthusiast to elaborate on if he/she wanted to.  The problem is not that the rigging of the Victory is inherently more complex than that of the Constitution.  It isn't.  (As a matter of fact, in some ways the Constitution has more rigging than the Victory.  The Constitution has four yards on each mast; the Victory - in the configuration kitted by Heller - only has three.)  The problem is that the Heller people didn't know what they were doing.

In fairness we probably should note one other factor that undoubtedly influenced the approach the Heller instruction "writers" took.  The old Revell kits originated in the 1950s and 1960s, before the plastic kit industry got internationalized.  The original issues of the Cutty Sark and Constitution kits were in English - period.  Heller, from the beginning of its existence, felt obliged to gear its kits to an international market.  I suspect that's one big reason why the instructions in the Soleil Royal and Victory kits rely so heavily on diagrams and numbers:  the writers wanted to keep the actual verbiage to a bare minimum, so the same instructions could be packed in the boxes going to France, Britain, Spain, Germany, Italy, the U.S., etc.  Nice idea - but it just doesn't work.  Combine that approach with the designers' fundamental ignorance of how sailing ships worked, and the result is a ripoff of the typical purchaser.  (The Revell people may not have operated on quite the level of artisanship that the Heller ones did - but at least Revell understood that yards are supposed to be fastened to masts.)

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 8:16 PM
I purchased an airbrush just for this particular model, and I am wondering if anyone has used anything other than a thinner specified for modelling.  Would mineral spirits or lacquer thinner have the same effect?  I am using Humbrol enamel.  My biggest fear is ruining the paint or the airbrush.  As I mentioned earlier, I painted the railings on the stern galleries solid black (looks like a fat hornet from behind).  I do not have a whole lot of experience in painting the smaller details like the figurehead or foc'sle or ornamentation on the stern.  Does anyone have any useful hints or tips on how to make these finer details look respectable? 
  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 8:39 PM

 CrazedCossack wrote:
I purchased an airbrush just for this particular model, and I am wondering if anyone has used anything other than a thinner specified for modelling.  Would mineral spirits or lacquer thinner have the same effect?  I am using Humbrol enamel.  My biggest fear is ruining the paint or the airbrush.  As I mentioned earlier, I painted the railings on the stern galleries solid black (looks like a fat hornet from behind).  I do not have a whole lot of experience in painting the smaller details like the figurehead or foc'sle or ornamentation on the stern.  Does anyone have any useful hints or tips on how to make these finer details look respectable?

You know, I've tossed around and tried airbrush versus handbrushing, and to me at least, nothing beats handpainting.  It looks so much more scale than airbrushing, adding brush texture to the hull.  Now, I've used airbrushes for undercoats, say, for the black under the deck tan for grain effects, as well as for masts.  But I found that nothing looks better than a brush painted kit.  I tend to be a little more proud of my work also.

But, to tell you the truth, I've never used anything except water as a thinner.  It just works well for me since I only use acrylics.

As for the finer details, I use wash and drybrush techniques.  I can get wonderful shadows, aged paint effects, and worn wood effects...

Hope that helps...

Hey, back on the shroud/ratline subject...I found this type of "liquid plastic" that dries to a flat black tone.  I tried it out and was quite pleased with it.  Check your local hardware store.  I think it's in either the plumbing, glue, or electrical section.  Just a dab to cover where the ratline crosses the shroud and it holds quite well, though I haven't tried it over an entire set of shrouds, so I don't know how the whole finished product would hold together.  When it dries, it's very hard to notice, except for the fact that you cannot see any knots where there normally would be, and that would drive purists crazy...But viewing the ship as a display on a shelf or something like that, it would look very pleasing to the eye.

Grymm

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