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Decent plans for HMS Prince 1670 II

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  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Lewiston ID
Posted by reklein on Saturday, December 9, 2006 10:12 AM
WOW!!!!! Just looked at bryan01's post of 7/23. Don't know how I missed this one. What a beautiful ship model. The workmanship is PERFECT. Sometime I wish I could get lessons from one of these guys. I suspect old world craftsmanship is beyond this 62 yr. old guy though and I don't think that a whole string of lessons would do anything but convince me that some people have more talent than others.
  • Member since
    November 2006
Posted by Papillon on Friday, December 8, 2006 9:19 PM

Mouth watering: a first quality kit of the Prince!! I will pay for it what it costs!

Max.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posted by bryan01 on Sunday, July 23, 2006 3:55 PM
 jtilley wrote:

 But I'm fairly certain that the rigging on it isn't contemporary. (I may be mistaken about that, but almost all of the old Board Room models have been rerigged at least once.)

You were right once again. The model of HMS Prince was bought by the Science museum in 1895 at which time it was unrigged. The rigging was done in 1898 but wasn't found satisfactory and was subsequently redone correctly some years later.

 

Bryan
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, July 23, 2006 7:57 AM

Truly maginificent and inspirational work.  Since we started this thread by talking about plans, it's perhaps worth noting that M. Fichant gave himself a head start:  he based his model on the drawings of Jean Boudriot.  There are none finer.

I have the general impression that some of the finest and most artistic sailing ship modeling of our era is taking place in France.  Unfortunately, those of us on the western side of the great pond only see a small proportion of it.  A friend of mine recently edited an edition of a wonderful French book called The Art of Ship Modeling.  (The name of the author escapes me.)  The photos in that volume can only whet one's appetite for more.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posted by bryan01 on Sunday, July 23, 2006 7:38 AM

Well, marvel at the pictures on this site. A 74-gun ship by Jaques Fichant.

This gentleman isn't impersonating anything, this man is an artist.

http://perso.orange.fr/gerard.delacroix/74/74-1.htm

The rest of the site is also terrific, especially if you fancy French ships.

http://perso.orange.fr/gerard.delacroix/sommaire.htm

Unfortunately(?) it's only in French but the pictures speak for themselves. These people really lift modeling to enormous heights...RESPECT!!!

 

Bryan
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, July 22, 2006 2:46 PM

I hope I may be forgiven, in this distinguished international company, for citing an American analogy. 

Some years ago a disgusted Chicago sports fan ran a large advertisement in one of the local newspapers, announcing that he was bringing a legal action against the Chicago Cubs on the grounds that they were impersonating a professional baseball team. Somebody really ought to sue those HECEPOB firms for impersonating scale ship model kit manufacturers.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posted by bryan01 on Saturday, July 22, 2006 10:00 AM
 jtilley wrote:

...the rigging is nonsensical, the flags date from no earlier than the nineteenth century, the wales in the after part of the ship are distorted, the rails in the bow are worse, and the figurehead appears to be on the verge of leaping off into space.  The alleged scale of 1/61 suggests that the manufacturer is recycling fittings from other kits on other scales...

Well said mr. Tilley, and as long as these manufacturers hang 'wooden' carvings on the hull like christmas decorations instead of 'emerging' from it as it should be, I will never buy such kit. It doesn't represent a scalemodel, it looks like a toy, and a very expensive one.

 

Bryan
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, July 22, 2006 8:59 AM

Somebody needs to pass Bryan01's advice on to Model Expo and Constructo.  Here's the ad for the new Constructo Prince: http://www.modelexpoonline.com/cgi-bin/sgin0101.exe?FNM=00&T1=CON80839&UID=2006072209323293&UREQA=1&TRAN85=N&GENP=


Note that, though the model clearly attempts (albeit not very well) to represent the vessel of 1670, the advertising copy claims quite emphatically that she was present at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805.  (A ship of the line named H.M.S. Prince was indeed at Trafalgar, but obviously not this ship.)

Later edit (Feb. 2007):  ModelExpo seems to have deleted the Trafalgar reference from the description of the kit on its website.  Bravo.


One never knows, when dealing with HECEPOB manufacturers, how much to attribute to the manufacturer, how much to the distributor, and how much to the person who built the model in the photo.  At any rate, in this case the rigging is nonsensical, the flags date from no earlier than the nineteenth century, the wales in the after part of the ship are distorted, the rails in the bow are worse, and the figurehead appears to be on the verge of leaping off into space.  The alleged scale of 1/61 suggests that the manufacturer is recycling fittings from other kits on other scales.  And the price is utterly outrageous.  Typical HECEPOB garbage.


Let's hope the Amati/Victory Models version is better.  I think it will be.


Along the same lines, a few weeks ago I got a big promotional brochure from Model Expo in the mail.  One of the featured products was a HECEPOB version of the Mayflower, which was described as "The flagship of Christopher Columbus."  Gawd help us all.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posted by bryan01 on Friday, July 21, 2006 2:28 PM
 michel.vrtg wrote:

Oops! Sorry, I was completely wrong, thank you for showing my mistake...

A mistake easily forgiven since it is easily made. Since the life expectancy of a warship wasn't very long, especially in times of war, a lot of ships bear the same name.

There where numerous Victories, Vanguards, Ajaxes, Albions, Cornwalls, Somersets and Zeven Provincien.

It is therefore always safest to mention a launch date when talking about a ship.

 

Bryan
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 21, 2006 11:21 AM

Oops! Sorry, I was completely wrong, thank you for showing my mistake, I thought, there was just one Prince, and the vessel I thought of was Prince Royal. Thank you.

 

Please, note, that you could build a nice Prince model with the Amati plans and parts, as can be seen here :

http://www.navievelieri.it/prince.htm

Michel

 

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posted by bryan01 on Friday, July 21, 2006 10:59 AM

Haha, yes, we should have done that. Although I'm afraid you're a little bit mistaken. The English ship that was destroyed by the Dutch in 1666 during the Four Days Battle was the Prince Royal (or Royal Prince) of 1610, not the Prince discussed in this thread.

However, both ships were built by the same family; the Prince Royal by Phineas Pett (just like the Sovereign of the Seas 1637) and the Prince by his son Peter Pett.

During the Battle of Solebay 1672 (Third Anglo-Dutch War) the Prince was so badly damaged by The Ruyter his on Zeven Provincien that the Duke of York had to temporarily shift his flag to another ship. The Prince eventually managed to reach an English harbor where she was repaired.

In 1692 she was broken up for parts which were subsequently used in the building of the Royal William.

The Ruyters 80 gun flagship Zeven Provincien is now being reconstructed in the Netherlands at the same shipyard as the Batavia. http://www.bataviawerf.nl/en/7provincien.html

Although end of construction is not expected earlier then 2015 it will be quite a sight to see a seventeenth century Man of War back at sea.

 

Bryan
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 21, 2006 10:14 AM

A trip to Kensington with my camera would probably be the best but isn't exactly around the corner so....

Big Smile [:D]Put the blame on your ancestors, Bryan, they had to bring her back to the Netherlands, instead of sinking her.

Michel

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, July 21, 2006 9:43 AM

Belaying points always create headaches.  Actual contemporary belaying plans are almost unheard of.  James Lees includes several, based on contemporary models, in his book, but the earliest dates from 1719.

If you make a trip to London you can probably, with a good deal of effort, figure out where all the lines on that wonderful old model are belayed.  (It's not as easy as it sounds, though.)  But I'm fairly certain that the rigging on it isn't contemporary. (I may be mistaken about that, but almost all of the old Board Room models have been rerigged at least once.)  So what you'll be looking at is, in all probability, the work of some twentieth-century conservator, who may or may not have been able to figure out where all the lines were belayed originally.

Various people over the years have claimed to have drawn authoritative belaying point plans for ships like this, but the truth of the matter is that there's plenty of room for interpretation and guesswork.  One thing that does seem pretty clear:  seventeenth-century ships did not have nearly as many permanent pinrails, fiferails, cleats, bitts, etc. as ships of later period did.  (Those there are who say the pinrail inside the bulwarks wasn't even invented prior to the end of the eighteenth century.  They may be right - though I have my doubts.)  It seems to have been common practice to tie off pieces of running rigging to pieces of standing rigging - e.g., to belay the running rigging lines coming down a mast to the shrouds.  That seems like a clumsy and even dangerous way to deal with the problem, but it does seem to have been the norm.

Bottom line:  if you rig your model in accordance with the Anderson book and devise a belaying point plan that makes sense from the practical standpoint, few people will be in a position to argue with it.  I certainly won't.

Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posted by bryan01 on Friday, July 21, 2006 8:54 AM

Gentlemen, thank you very much for your answers this far.

I actually need the information for the Airfix 1:180 HMS Prince that I am building right now. Until now I have only done some preliminary work, that is, examining pictures of the magnificent model in the Kensington Science Museum (this model was obviously used as example for the designers of this kit), searching for rigging plans and some alterations to the kit itself. Not that the kit isn't a sound one, it really is, I just want more detailing.

I have for instance cut out all windows in the stern and side galleries. They will later be glazed in by clear plastic with little window panes printed on them. All deck gratings were removed and refilled with scratch build gratings. Same goes for the stern lanterns (tricky work by the way).

Furthermore there is a lot of deck furniture that isn't presented in the kit. And that is where problems begin to arise. Where are all the belaying points? There are no belaying benches, only two fife rails (around main mast; none at fore- or mizzen mast. No cleatches, bitts or knight heads. Where does this all have to come?

I do have fair amount of knowledge how everything works (thanks to R.C. Anderson and others) and scratch building parts isn't a problem either but a decent belaying plan is practically a must to get things right. A trip to Kensington with my camera would probably be the best but isn't exactly around the corner so....

 

Bryan
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, July 21, 2006 7:41 AM

Michel's point about the use of "HMS" is most interesting.  I think he's correct in implying that many authors use it too casually.

Most well-researched books on naval history and ship modeling seem to start applying "HMS" sometime during the seventeenth century.  (Certainly no earlier.  I don't think any reputable author would refer to Sir Francis Drake's ship as "HMS Golden Hind.")  I've seen the abbreviation applied to the Prince in some pretty respectable publications - including, I believe, Donald McNarry's books and the Science Museum's little books about its ship model collection.  (I may be mistaken about that; I'll see if I can check and make sure today.)  "HMS" certainly appears before the names of seventeenth-century models in the Naval Academy Museum.

BUT...when it comes to figuring out when "HMS" (or H.M.S.; let's stipulate that the presence or absence of the periods varies with the editor) started to be used  in the documents of the British (or English) navy itself, I'm much less confident.  When I was working on my book about the Royal Navy during the American Revolution I had occasion to look at hundreds of contemporary documents written by naval officers, government officials, and various other folks during the 1770s and 1780s.  I can't recall every having run across the abbreviation "HMS" in any of those documents.  "His Majesty's ship" (or "his Britannic Majesty's ship") was quite common, and I think I occasionally saw "H.M. ship" (or "H.M. Frigate," or "H.M.Sloop," or whatever).  But the practice of putting "HMS" in front of ship names as a matter of course seems to be relatively recent.

Another point about those eighteenth-century documents:  I personally have never seen one that didn't put the article "the" in front of a ship's name - unless some expression like "his Majesty's ship" was there instead.  Even in that construction, the normal phraseology was "his Majesty's ship the Victory."  My theory is that "the" started getting omitted from ship names when the telegraph came into use, because every word sent in a telegram cost money.  But that's just a guess.

Another term that I've never seen in anything written by a naval officer or official in the eighteenth century is "man of war."  The expression certainly existed at the time.  (Handel's oratorio Israel in Egypt includes a duet for two basses on the text "The Lord is a man of war/ God is his name," which has nothing to do with ships.)  But I think the use of the term to describe warships dates from some later time.  Eighteenth-century documents do use the phrase "ship of war" - usually as a synonym for "ship of the line."  ("The channel around Sandy Hook is navigable at high tide to any vessel smaller than a ship of war.")  For that matter, I don't think eighteenth-century writers used the word "warship."  (I remember a letter from Sir George Rodney in which he described two warships of the American Continental Navy as "vessels belonging to his Majesty's Rebellious and Piratical Subjects armed for war."  Sir George knew how to turn a phrase.) 

It looks to me as though "HMS" came into more-or-less official usage sometime in the very late eighteenth or nineteenth century, and shortly thereafter started getting applied retroactively to earlier periods, as it has been ever since.  (If that be a sin, I have to plead guilty to it myself.)  For an American like me, though, to be passing judgment on such a subject would be idiotically presumptuous.  Maybe some knowledgable British historian has published something that clears up the matter definitively, but if so I haven't seen it.  (I do recall reading a brief note in The Mariner's Mirror by David Lyon, of the National Maritime Museum, in which he established that "His [or Her] Majesty's ship" was a seventeenth-century expression.  But I've never read a thorough, authoritative discussion of when the abbreviation came into use.)

Regarding Prince plans and kits - All I about the new "Victory Models" operation is what I've read on the Model Ship World website.  I have the impression that it's a British project, with Amati providing the money and distribution but little else.  That site contains a most interesting discussion, by the designer, of the forthcoming Prince kit; he makes it clear that it's a brand new product, owing little or nothing to the old Amati version.  As I've said so many times before, the quality of HECEPOB kits undoubtedly varies; I've never seen either the old Amati kit or the new Constructo one.  But on the basis of the ones I have seen, and the reports I've gotten from people who've bought other ones, I would suggest extreme wariness regarding the plans in those kits.  And if what you're interested in is the rigging, put your trust in either R.C. Anderson or James Lees - or both. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 21, 2006 4:58 AM

Some years ago, Amati sold a Prince model.

Plans can still be found :

http://www.duemarimodellismo.it/amati2.htm

(Ref 1016)

These plans will most probably be the base for the next model by Victory Models, a new company, Amati taking part in this new venture.

There is also a new, and less expensive (because the Victory Models Prince, no HMS yet then, will be very expensive) made by Constructo :

http://www.hobbiesguinea.com/product_info.php?cPath=57_135_553&products_id=9232&osCsid=6bfa9130b1caa998e2b29c62429d1813

Happy modeling,

Michel

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:31 AM

One of the great ironies of ship modeling is that there are so few good published plans for English warships of the seventeenth century.  Those magnificent "Board Room" models entice lots of modelers, but it's tough to find accurate drawings of them.  That's largely because (though our knowledge of how those ships were designed has lots of gaps in it) it seems that the naval architects drew relatively few drawings of the real things.  Certainly none that showed such things as carvings and deck fittings in any detail.  And detailed contemporary rigging plans from throughout the sailing ship period are pretty rare.  (A diagram wouldn't have been of much help to anybody rigging a real ship.)  There are some textbook-type publications from later periods (e.g., Lever's Young Officer's Sheet Anchor and Steel's Elements of Rigging and Seamanship), but so far as I know none from the seventeenth century.

The expert modelers who specialize in this period (e.g., Donald McNarry) generally draw their own plans.  That's not quite as difficult as it sounds.  Naval architecture at that time was based largely on fairly straightforward geometry; the cross-sections of a typical warship consisted of straight lines and intersecting circle arcs.  Sir Anthony Deane's Doctrine of Naval Architecture, available in reprint form from the Conway Maritime Press, contains enough information to let the ambitious modeler draw a set of hull lines for a ship-of-the-line.

There is some excellent secondary literature on the subject.  Fortunately (from the modeler's standpoint) the aspect of it that's gotten the most attention from scholars is rigging.  If you've completed a model of H.M.S. Prince to the point where you're ready to start the rigging, good, practical help is available. 

Back in 1927 Dr. R.C. Anderson published a book called The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast, 1600-1720.  It's currently available in a very reasonably priced paperback edition from Dover Books; used copies can be found on the web for less than $10.00.  Anderson - a fine historian and an expert on contemporary ship models - walks the reader through the process of rigging a seventeenth-century ship model, one rope at a time.  The book contains lots of diagrams and photos of old models.  (A few years later, Anderson published a revised version of the book called simply Seventeenth-Century Rigging.  That one omits all the references to non-English ships.  For H.M.S. Prince modelers, either book would be fine.)

The other option is James Lees's The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, 1625-1860.  Originally published by the Conway Maritime Press in 1979, this is one of the most important reference books for serious ship model enthusiasts.  Buy that book and you have enough information to rig virtually any English/British sailing warship model.  Unfortunately it's quite expensive, but nobody who buys it will regret the acquisition.

I've steamed up this Forum more than once with my derogatory comments about HECEPOB (Hideously Expensive Continental European Plank-On-Bulkhead) wood ship model kits.  Most of them are overpriced garbage.  Mention of the Prince, however, brings up an interesting development.  One of the most notorious HECEPOB companies, Amati of Italy, recently introduced some English warship kits in a series it calls "Victory Models."  I haven't seen any of these kits, but on the basis of the promotional literature it's clear that they inhabit a different planet from the world of the HECEPOBs.  The "Victory Models" kits are designed by a gentleman who used to work for CalderCraft, an outstanding British model manufacturer.  He knows what he's doing - in terms both of what real ships look like (a subject about which most HECEPOB designers apparently know practically nothing) and of how to design a kit that actually can be built into a reasonably accurate and well-detailed scale replica of the real thing.  (Most of the HECEPOB designers know even less about that.)  There's some interesting information about Victory Models on the Model Ship World website (www.modelshipworld.com).  One of the company's forthcoming products is an H.M.S. Prince.  That site contains some photos of the prototype model; it looks gorgeous.

Hope that helps at least a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Decent plans for HMS Prince 1670 II
Posted by bryan01 on Thursday, July 20, 2006 6:41 AM

Hello all,

I somehow locked me own post and don't know how to unlock it so.....

Does anyone know if there are any decent plans for HMS Prince 1670. The internet in this case isn't of much use I'm afraid. The only things I encounter are those hideous wooden models that cost lots of money and don't even do remotely justice to this marvelous piece of shipbuilding.

I'm particularly interested in good rigging diagrams.

Any help in the form of websites, pictures or plans would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks very much in advance,

Bryan
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