Trumpeter USS England

Steve,

I just started my kit and have no idea about the scale of the 20 mm cannons but I was wondering about paint colors.  I wanted to use Tamiya colors but was not sure how to compare Tamiya colors with Gunze-Sangyo.  What are you planning on using?

WillieW

cruichin wrote:

Almost done with the basic build of this kit. One question for others who have seen it - do the Oerlikon 20MM cannons seem too large?

The 20mm guns are somewhat oversize.   They are better shaped than the 20mm guns which are included in the 1:350 scale The Sullivans. 

The 3-inch gun is pretty good,  but the 1.1 inch gun needs some work.

All in all, the England is a superior kit to The Sullivans.   Trumpeter dropped the ball on that kit.

L'Arsenal is the best choice for replacement resin & brass 20mm guns.

I'm a bit of a ship virgin, but liked the look of this kit.  Just one thing, could anyone let me know what colours to paint the thing?  Trumpeter give you the colours for the hull, but what about the deck, depth charges, guns, etc?  Or, is there a book or website that is good for this?  Thanks all!  Osher

The paint scheme for the USS England as shown in the instructions is what was called Measure 21.  This called for overall Navy Blue.  The Navy's designation for Navy Blue paint during WWII was 5-N.   The decks and horizontal surfaces were painted 20B Weather Deck Blue.  Expendable items, such as the depth charges and depth charge arbors were not painted.  They would most likely be left in the same paint they were delivered in (mid-neutral gray?  5-O Ocean Gray? your choice).   Life rings, life rafts, floater net baskets, mast, yardarm, gun pedestals & shields,  railings, depth charge racks, ready service ammo lockers, etc. would be painted 5-N also.   The barrels on the 20mm guns would be left gun metal while the whole 3-inch mount would be 5-N.   Basically it was a blue on blue scheme, quite easy to paint (but perhaps a bit boring). 

The Buckley-class destroyer escorts were also painted in some of the Measure 3x dazzle patterns, such as Ms 32/1D

opposite side at http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g100000/g172872c.htm

or Ms 31/24D

opposite side at http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g100000/g105512c.htm

As you can tell from the address, these camouflage diagrams are from the US Naval Historical Center.  They have not been officially posted but James Corley at Nautilus Models has been gleaning the information by backdooring some USNHC directories.  You can see his entire list here http://nautilusmodels.com/camouflage.htm     Scroll down to Buckley-class Destroyer Escorts.  Some of these patetrns were also printed in a recent IPMS USA magazine.

You will want to look at the camouflage measure informaton at shipcamouflage.com also

http://www.shipcamouflage.com/measures.htm

From your signature block I see that you are from England.   The US Navy transferred several of the Buckley-class destroyer escorts to the RN which called them the Captain-class.  White Ensign Models is preparing a conversion set (resin RN type guns, RN type boats, life rafts, etc. and PE) which will convert a Buckley to a Captain.   WEM will also be able to help you locate the correct paints either as a US Navy or RN ship.

I agree I do believe the England spent her career in measure 21..

 

I finished the England in Measure 21 and liked the look of the model. Next project is USS North Carolina, which I'll do in Measure 22, as she was at the end of the war. I finished the Tamiya Fletcher in Measure 12 modified. I like the contrast of the different camo schemes.

One issue with North Carolina is the 20MM guns, which are simply awful. I'm replacing them with PE barrels, but what a tedious task! I'm going to look into the Arsenal 20s for future projects.

 

Steve

Thanks all, especially Ed!  I'll let you know when I get around to it!

DBFSS385 wrote:

I agree I do believe the England spent her career in measure 21..

Nyet. She was in dazzle for part of her career. I haven't been able to locate the pattern yet (we've only got one, very grainy shot of her starboard side) but she was painted up in dazzle just before her historic run of sub kills (May 1944). I want to do England myself in this scheme so I am looking for information. When/if I get the correct pattern it'll be posted on shipcamouflage.com

By the way, 5-N was Navy blue for most of WWII; in February 1945 it was reused for Navy Gray and Navy Blue became 5-NB.

Is the Anatomy of the Ship book on the England, which states on the back of the dust jacket that she wore Measue 11 (Sea Blue 5S with Deck Blue decks) during the war, incorrect?

I'd say it's incorrect; she was built in 1943 and 5-S was was out of use on new construction by then.

Although I can't vouch for the colors used, the launch/commissioning/service photos of the ship show a single, not dazzle, color for her in 1943,4,5. Source is the DE web site link to USS England.

 

Steve

Tracy White wrote:

I'd say it's incorrect; she was built in 1943 and 5-S was was out of use on new construction by then.

After doing some research, I'm inclined to agree with you.   I can't find a reference that any of the Buckley class (or any DE for that matter) was painted in Measure 11.  

As far as a dazzle scheme for England is concerned, you may already aware of this Tracy, but there is a photo of England in Bruce Franklin's book Buckley-Class Destroyer Escorts which shows her in July, 1945 as she enters Phildelphia Navy Yard for conversion to an APD.    She is painted in a monochrome scheme which I assume is Measure 21.  It seems that it would be somewhat unsual for a ship to go from Measure 21 (which I think of as a mid-war scheme, usually) to a dazzle scheme and then back to Measure 21 as opposed to, say, Measure 22.   Not impossible, I'm sure, just out of the ordinary-at least to this non-expert's thinking.

 

I also should add that WEM has a PE set for the model now. Wish I had it when I built mine!

 

Steve

Not at all unusual for a ship to go from Ms.21 to a dazzle scheme and then back to Ms.21. Read Alan Raven's series of articles on the development of naval camouflate at http://www.shipcamouflage.com. Basically, Ms.21 was designed to reduce visibility from the air. It was useful in mid-war when the Japanese air threat was still quite high. The dazzle schemes were designed primarily to make ship type identification as well as course and speed difficult for surface ship and submarines. However, dazzle-painted ships stood out like a sore thumb from the air. Thus, with the advent of the kamikaze threat from late October 1944 onwards, Ms.21 again became preferred.

Cheers,

John Snyder, The Paint Guy, White Ensign Models, http://whiteensignmodels.com