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Question on Bowsprit assembly of Soleil Royal

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  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Monday, September 18, 2006 4:18 PM

Phil, and any who may be interested,

   No, this isn't a ship model, what it is, is a "photo-history" of part of my journey in modelbuilding. In the photo linked here, you'll see a scratchbuilt caboose, three times. The top picture shows my first attempt at scratchbuilding, in 1960, using hand scribed balsa sheet, and hand cut balsa strips. The middle, the same model built in 1968, using Northeast Scale basswood, and the bottom picture, again the same model, built in 1998, using Evergreen Styrene sheet, and strip.

   We all have to start somewhere. We all have to make our mistakes, and develope our skills. We all have to learn our subject. I have stated before, that I have no fear of being compared to others. Those who are profoundly better modelers than I, simply, have developed their skills to a higher degree than I have. Their level of ability, becomes the new target for me to aim to hit......I am satisfied to improve, whether or not I reach that target level.........at least for the moment. Then again, I am one of those who love being on the steep part of the learning curve, so it's all fun for me. I rarely build a kit "out of the box". The level of detail depends more on how I "connect" with the item modeled, than with "accuracy". There is a big difference between "counting rivets", and being a "rivet counter", the former being someone interested in being as accurate as skill level permits, the latter being one who loves to tear down someone else's work They're in all catagories of modelbuilding, and just like weeds in a garden we all have to deal with them. 

And, okay, okay, okay, I'll suck up my paranoia and post some pics.  Be warned, it is straight from the box, has errors all over it (that I'm correcting this evening), and I'm sure that everyone will probably be very nice and post positive comments.  But, I do want criticizm.

Phil, take pride in what you have accomplished, and go further, only as much as you feel comfortable with.......it IS supposed to be fun!   www.railimages.com/gallery/peterjuengst/aca

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Monday, September 18, 2006 9:01 AM

Okay, nobody has to worry that this thread has become undone.  I love the direction this has gone, since I was having this very discussion with a friend the other day.  It is the classic observation.  As my friend called it "the real world versus the imaginary world."

Now, this may seem a bit of an extreme name, but it does have bearing on our discussion.  When I was a kid, I built models out of the need to satisfy my imagination.  My grandfather was a waist gunner on a B-17, and would tell me all kinds of stories from the great war (including the fact that he didn't hit a darn thing except for another B-17 in his formation).  This fueled my already vivid imagination further, culminating in a total of 50 to 60 different WWI and II model aircraft hanging from my ceiling.  Now, for a 10 year old, accuracy went only as far as what the instructions said, but I didn't really care.  In my world, they were accurate enough, and I was proud to show my "geeky" hobby to my friends.

As I grew older, I did indeed begin to do a little research into my builds, especially the time when I took a Revell B-17 and converted it to my grandfather's bomber.  But the need for accuracy went only that far.  I do remember many occassions where I let my imagination run wild, taking two entirely different kits and combining them to make something outlandish (like my jet powered P-38, complete with swept wings and missiles.  For me, the thrill of the model lay in the paint.  I became obsessed with getting the paint just right, getting the weathering to look realistic, in refining my overall painting skills.  By the mid 80's, during my first stint in college, I moved on to gaming miniatures like D&D and Battletech, where the medium was only about painting with very little assembly, much more conducive to my painting techniques.  Plus, the imagination was built in.  There was no real need to worry about whether or not the half-elvin wizard/warrior's sword was historically accurate to the time period. (I actually did have a debate with someone about that very subject...yeah, I know...sad)

So now, here I am, 41 years old, a disabled vet, back in college, with my own kids starting to get out on their own.  Plus, I have come full circle and have picked up plastic and paint again.  I don't claim to be the best.  I am reluctant to post photos just because of that.  I am overly self-critical when standing in the magnificent works of JTilley, BigJake, and so many of the other builders here on the forum.  I am the classic average modeller.  I take shortcuts, I get impatient, I rush things quite often, I get satisfied with "nobody will notice that", and I make miriad mistakes.  I call up Drydock models and look at the gallery of some of the most beautiful ships I have ever seen, which is the very sight that fueled my need to get back into the hobby, and wonder if I could ever be so patient to do a build like those.

But, I build anyway.  I build what catches my eye.  Constitution, Cutty Sark, Heller Victory, Soleil Royal, La Reale.  I am entirely capable and worthy of these kits.  Each a masterpiece (to me) in their own right.  Even the much maligned Soleil Royale, which I consider to be the most enjoyable painting experience I believe I've ever had.  But, I know I won't be historically accurate.  Not even close.  I will try.  I'll try to get the rigging right.  I'll fight to get the line to hold while I sieze it.  I'll try to get it tied off on the right pin or post.  I won't be successful, get frustrated, and just tie a good ole' fashioned square not and be done with it.  I know this will happen.  But I will still be proud of it.  My boys, will still be standing their in awe of that massive ship.  Indeed, when my step-son gets home today after being at his father's for a week and runs upstairs to check my workbench, sees the almost complete hull sitting there, I thoroughly expect to get a call while I'm in class.   That is probably the biggest reason I'm in this again.  The feeling I get when I do things for my kids.

There is no right, or wrong way to do a model.  Both sides, those who are the historian, building ships to as exact a specification as possible, are needed.  These builders give us windows into history.  I will never point to my ships and use it as an example of history.  But I will get on the web, and show my son JTilley's build, which is a wonderful launching pad for the history of the great age of sail.  And it has happened.  JTilley, I showed your build to my boy.  Now, he wants a book on age of sail, including a book just on the battle of Trafalgar.  With one historically accurate model, you got a 13 year old interested in history.  That is a very rare gift indeed, and I thank you. 

I also commend and love to see the builders like me, struggling to understand this intricate craft, proud of the work they do, but never quite able to reach that accurate level.  But, they are still proud enough to place it on their mantle and show it to everyone.  They may not have the skill or the resolve to do the research that is obviously necessary to get a build to any certain level of accuracy, but I admire their work nonetheless.

This is one reason I like it here at Finescale.  This is the only place where the imaginary and the realist blend together to share views.  And this is where the novice gains so much valuable experience from the experienced, and the masters, so that they too will one day reach a higher level with their kits.

And, okay, okay, okay, I'll suck up my paranoia and post some pics.  Be warned, it is straight from the box, has errors all over it (that I'm correcting this evening), and I'm sure that everyone will probably be very nice and post positive comments.  But, I do want criticizm.  I do need to know some things I can do to improve certain techniques.  I'm not in a position to do a lot of scratch-building, but I do love hearing the opinions.

I love these discussions.  Keep it coming.

Thanks,

Phil 

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Sunday, September 17, 2006 10:59 AM

I agree with much of what John Tilley says, it all comes down essentially to experience in the end. As knowledge of the subject grows so does one’s critical approach (or should do). I recall in my very early builds of the likes of Constitution and Cutty Sark, I didn’t know what a sheet or tack  was, but liked the look of the rigging and simply followed  the fairly simplistic instructions without really understanding.

 You can’t expect a novice modeller to have the depth of knowledge, particularly on rigging, to allow builds such as the Heller Victory or even the Soleil Royal with all its faults, to be completed to their maximum potential. A great deal of prior research is necessary to achieve this, which may seem a less attractive option with the wonderful new kit box sitting there before you and an eagerness to start.

 I don’t intend to sound in any way elitist but I’m on my second Heller Victory with a gap of some 17 years, and I have to say that thrilled as I was with my first effort at the time, there is no comparison with the current build.

 But ignorance is bliss and really it is forums such as this which are double edged swords, both inspiring members to greater things and yet perhaps highlighting the modelling inadequacies that we all feel at times, and perhaps detracting from the sense of satisfaction otherwise gained.

 Overall though if each succeeding model leaves you with a feeling of greater satisfaction over your previous efforts then you are advancing in our hobby and its main purpose is achieved.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, September 17, 2006 8:51 AM

In view of the turn this thread seems to have taken, maybe it would be a good idea to consider a few basic aspects of what we're talking about.

This Forum is sponsored by a magazine that's devoted to scale models.  A scale model, by definition, is a reproduction of an actual thing - be it car, aircraft, tank, ship, or whatever. The objective of the scale modeler, normally, is to reproduce that thing with as much accuracy, and  in as much detail, as possible.

There is, of course, no such thing as a perfect scale model.  Every one of them makes some sort of compromise with reality, due to the limitations of the modeler's skill, the materials and tools used, or whatever.  (Show me a 1/72-scale aircraft model with moving dials on the instrument panel - or working valves in its engine.)  The same goes for kits (plastic, wood, or otherwise).  Look through the kit reviews in the magazines and websites.  You'll find that no knowledgeable reviewer ever encounters a kit with no mistakes in it.

The individual scale modeler has to make the decision as to whether a particular kit is good enough to constitute a satisfactory basis for a scale model.  In my personal opinion, the answer in the case of the Revell Cutty Sark,  the Revell Constitution, and the Heller Victory, the answer is - yes.  In the case of the Heller Soleil Royal, the answer is - no.  All four of those kits make compromises in terms of accuracy.  In my opinion the compromises in the first three cases are relatively minor - and can, with the application of practical techniques, be fixed.  The fourth one doesn't rise to that level.  Other scale modelers are perfectly entitled to different opinions.

My observation has been that scale ship modelers actually tend to be less stringent in their opinions about such things than scale modelers in other areas.  Aircraft and armor modelers - and even warship modelers - routinely condemn kits because of errors that, by comparison with what's wrong with the Heller Soleil Royal, seem pretty trivial.  A few years ago, Trumpeter released a 1/32-scale Grumman Wildcat.  The profile of the fuselage differed from scale reality by something between 1/4" and 1/2".  The aircraft modeling community promptly went bonkers, and Squadron Mail Order refused to sell the kit.  Trumpeter thereupon revised the molds.  Another example: some years back Revell tried to market its Type VII U-boat as U-505, which is a Type IX.  The modeling press - and the gift shop at the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry, where the real U-505 resides - raised such howls of protest that Revell took the kit off the market.  But when Revell reboxes its Cutty Sark wih a green hull and calls it the Thermopylae, nobody beyond this Forum seems to care.

The argument, "it doesn't matter because most people won't know the difference" doesn't seem to be part of the thinking of the rest of the modeling community.  If the scale modelers in other areas started thinking that way, where would they stop?  What percentage of the general population can tell the difference between a P-51B and a P-51D?  Or the difference between a Tiger tank and a Panther? Or the difference between a Type VII U-boat and a Type IX?  

If scale modelers were honest about it, though, they'd have to admit that there's really no rational reason for thinking and acting the way they do.  (There are exceptions, of course.  Professional modelers working for industry, for instance, have to maintain certain standards of accuracy; if they don't, the models won't serve their purposes.)  The truth of the matter is that the vast majority of people can't distinguish between an accurate scale model and and an inaccurate one - and, in the grand scheme of the universe, there's no reason why they should be able to do so.

So just why do scale modelers develop such an obsession with accuracy?  The answer undoubtedly varies a great deal from person to person - as does the degree of obsession.  I think most serious, longtime scale modelers, though, would say that they do what they do because (a) they think the finished products are beautiful, and (b) building them provides some sort of aesthetic and emotional satisfaction - in other words, for the same reasons that have been brought up in this thread. 

To assume that serious scale modelers have somehow lost their ability to see ships as beautiful things would be a big mistake.  Experienced scale modelers see far more beauty in a well-executed scale ship model than the average person does.  To my mind, the works of the finest serious scale ship modelers (e.g., C. Nepean Longridge, Donald McNarry, Harold Hahn, Norman Ough, etc.) qualify in every sense as works of art.  They in fact combine aesthetics, skill, and scholarship in ways that aren't found in most other art forms.

None of this is intended to suggest that the way those gentlemen do it is the only way to do it.  For most of us, model building is a hobby.  I've got several hobbies, and I pursue them with varying degrees of intensity.  One is photography; my good friend and fellow Forum member (and veteran pro photographer) MikeF6F will confirm that I am, at best, an extremely mediocre photographer.  I have a fairly big collection of classical music CDs, and if I ever get my violin out of its case everybody in the vicinity will be well-advised to run for the hills.  I like to play chess; the local chess club always welcomes me because it needs cannon fodder.  Etc.  I don't suggest for an instant that anybody who buys a ship model kit is under some obligation to build it according to a certain standard - mine or anybody else's.

I do suggest that anybody who decides to get into the area of sailing ship modeling at least take a look at what it has to offer beyond what's in the kit boxes.  There's a great mass of wonderful literature about ships and maritime history out there, and model building is a great way to get into it.  Scale ship modeling is a great hobby because, among other reasons, it's the sort of thing one can never master.  I've been doing it for fifty years, and I could easily do it for another fifty without learning everything there is to be learned about it. 

By all means, everybody in the hobby should pursue it in whatever way he or she thinks fit.  But be aware that there are other ways to do it - and (like photography, the violin, and chess), the more deeply into it you get, the more satisfaction - and outright pleasure - you're likely to get from it. 

That's my two cents' worth.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posted by bryan01 on Saturday, September 16, 2006 3:06 PM

Well Grymm, you have made your point – three times actually – now stop making us curious and start showing some pictures Wink [;)]

 

Bryan
  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Saturday, September 16, 2006 1:41 PM

While I do agree the the upper deck decorations would have been far more lavish and ornate, I can also say that since there is nobody in my house that would know the difference.  Plus, I live in an army town.  Now, if I had made an M1 tank model and it wasn't accurate, then all of my neighbors would call me out on it.  But, to date, everyone that has seen my Royal build has been wowed.  And the two people that I am most concerned with pleasing, my boys, are just plain excited with how it's coming.

And yes, I can imagine just how the upper decks would look with all the proper decoration.  I can also imagine what the kit would be...

...a heck of a lot more expensive...

The detail as it is is impeccable (to me).   And for me, the fun factor is off the scale.

More questions coming soon....rigging is not too far off (maybe a month or two)...

Thanks for all the input guys.  It makes this build that much more fun.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Saturday, September 16, 2006 1:40 PM

While I do agree the the upper deck decorations would have been far more lavish and ornate, I can also say that since there is nobody in my house that would know the difference.  Plus, I live in an army town.  Now, if I had made an M1 tank model and it wasn't accurate, then all of my neighbors would call me out on it.  But, to date, everyone that has seen my Royal build has been wowed.  And the two people that I am most concerned with pleasing, my boys, are just plain excited with how it's coming.

And yes, I can imagine just how the upper decks would look with all the proper decoration.  I can also imagine what the kit would be...

...a heck of a lot more expensive...

The detail as it is is impeccable (to me).   And for me, the fun factor is off the scale.

More questions coming soon....rigging is not too far off (maybe a month or

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Saturday, September 16, 2006 1:40 PM

While I do agree the the upper deck decorations would have been far more lavish and ornate, I can also say that since there is nobody in my house that would know the difference.  Plus, I live in an army town.  Now, if I had made an M1 tank model and it wasn't accurate, then all of my neighbors would call me out on it.  But, to date, everyone that has seen my Royal build has been wowed.  And the two people that I am most concerned with pleasing, my boys, are just plain excited with how it's coming.

And yes, I can imagine just how the upper decks would look with all the proper decoration.  I can also imagine what the kit would be...

...a heck of a lot more expensive...

The detail as it is is impeccable (to me).   And for me, the fun factor is off the scale.

More

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Friday, September 15, 2006 1:51 PM
Well, no one is really sure what the Soleil Royal really looked like during each phase of her career.  Existing evidence is quite contradictory regarding the ship,  so complete accuracy is not possible.  

However, for the purpose of display, some of Heller's omissions does distract from the visual impact of that lavish ship.   The upper deck of all 17th century prestige ships were absolutely palatial in decoration.  It is fairly certain that  the upper deck of the Soleil Royal would be as lavishly decorated as any other ship of the era.     French navy of Louis XIV era prefer an architectual theme in their decoration.   The SR's decoration would follow the same general theme as contemporay royal palaces in Versaille.   All the knightheads would have been as elaborately carved and gilded as the stern figures.   The inboard campanion ladders were elaborately curved.   The inboard railings would be elegantly carved with mythological figures on the ballistrates.   Essentially, no vertical space on the upperdeck would have been left undecorated.

All in all, the upper decks would have looks far more spectacular than the the worksmen like deck depicted by Heller.

Imagine what the kit would look like if the upper deck were as lavishly decorated as it should be.  
  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Friday, September 15, 2006 10:35 AM

Actually, I'm using the kit blocks and deadeyes.  I simply used my dremel to make a small groove around them.  It worked like a charm, though it did take an evening to do.  I'm one who, if at all possible, will avoid buying aftermarket parts.  For me, being completely "accurate" with regards to how a ship looked, proper size rigging lines, and things like that, simply are not necessary.  These kits are going to be displayed in my home, not paraded around shows and competitions.  Of course, this is just my personal view.

Right now, I'm working on the bow, as well as getting the guns installed.  I should have most of the hull finished up in about a month or so.  All the guilding is taking time to paint and I get headaches from all the fine detail after about an hours worth of work.

As for the masts.  I'm probably just going to use wooden dowels for support, though I have been told by people that have not put anything in the masts that they hold up just fine.

For me, the rigging is going to be a challenge.  I'm fairly positive I will not be able to get it as accurate as possible, but it will be very nice nonetheless.  I'll be getting the book "Ship rigging in the days of the Spritsail Topmast" to help me out, but I've also found that by reading over the kit instructions countless evenings that the rigging instructions start making some sense. 

But all in all, I love this kit.  It looks gorgeous.  Had I not been to this forum, I would have never known about the debate over "innaccuracies."  So all the hubub makes no difference to me.

Drop me an email if you like.  I'd love to see some of your work.  I'll send you some pics if I can...just don't laugh too hard when you see them... : )

Grymm

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Jacksonville, FL
Posted by dwtheriault on Friday, September 15, 2006 8:55 AM

Grymm,

I agree with you on this.  I have built several Tamiya and Trumpeter battleships and carriers, as well as countless tanks and planes (and two wood ship models, the AL Swift and Constellation) and I am completely enjoying myself building this Heller Soleil Royal.  Yes, there are probably some inaccuracies but I think I will end up with a nice model that I will be proud to display in my home when I finally complete it. 

I am also at the bow stage and have puzzled over the blocks and deadeyes as there are no grooves on any of them.  I, too, am going to trash those and buy (in bulk) either walnut ones from ME or Bluejacket.  I think I'll also putty the holes and tie around instead of trying to keep them connected through the holes.  I've also decided to reinforce them with internal wood or metal shafts which are also available from ME.  I don't see how these masts, etc. could possibly hold up without some kind of internal support but that's okay.  This has taught me another lesson.

I don't mind the challange of modelling.  If I want a no-brainer where I won't be learning as I go along, I'll build another tank or something.  For now, this model is both challenging and satisfying.

After this, I think I'll either get back to my Amati 1/250 Titanic or start my Mantua 1/78 Victory!!!  Lots of copper plating to do on that puppy!!!

Dave

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 8:27 AM

That's what I say.  I'm not concerned with the innaccuracies.  Right now, I'm painting all the decorations, and I'm having the time of my life.  Forget the rigging.  The guilding detail is amazing and my son's eyes got huge when I showed him the finished windows on the stern.  I'm no fantastic modeler and I can't name every part of a ship (you guys confuse the heck out of me sometimes), but I'm having a blast...well...except for the monotony of the guns.  I have 30 of them waiting for me tonight, along with the rest of the guilding and placement of the upper decks.  It looks real good and the "Total Royal Blue" I went with for the hull looks great... 

But, this is a fine model and will look absolutely great when completed....someday...a long long time from now...I am picking up the Anderson books and several of the other titles you have mentioned JTilley.  I know I won't be 100% accurate and everyone will see mistakes all over my builds, but this is some of the best work I have done and it's enough to elevate my interest in the hobby to the point of discussing the construction of a work-room addition to the house with my wife.  Kind of a model/scrapbook workshop complete with ventilated paint booth.  Wish me luck.

Guys, thanks for all the input.  I know I ask a lot of stupid questions, but trust me, they are sincere and you're helping me make this kit the best I've ever built...

Oh, I did decide to go the way everyone recommended and filled the holes on the bowsprit.  I'll just make a loop for the blocks.

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 6:10 AM

The late 17th / early 18th century is one of my favourite periods for ships and the Heller Soleil Royale is I think the only large scale plastic model representative of this period.

 Oh how I wish that a similar model of the ‘Prince’ for which there is far more historical evidence was available – there would be no contest.

 I enjoyed making my Soleil Royal not least because it provided an opportunity to rig such fascinating items as crowsfeet, europhoes, and the intricate lattice work of tackles with their multiple blocks, for the set up of the stays, items not appropriate to later period ships.

 Despite its inaccuracies it does make up into a fine decorative model, and with some modification and the guidance of Dr Anderson will give much satisfaction.

 

 

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 2:48 AM

Except for the fabulous stern decoration, which is supported by some questionable historical evidence, almost every other aspect of Heller's representation of the Soleil Royal is replete with errors, implausibilities, improbabilities, and anachronisms.  

If you want to build a Soleil Royal that stand a chance of resembling the details of any actual late 17th century large men of war,  you would be much better off taking your cue for all the details of the vessels from one the excellent models in the Greenwich maritime museum.  

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 9:53 PM

I believe ModelExpo buys its blocks from several European manufacturers, whose quality varies quite a bit.  Some of the deadeyes I've bought from them are quite nice; they're made of European walnut (which is quite a bit finer in grain than the American variety).  But I some of the lighter colored blocks do look pretty coarse.

My personal favorites are the britannia metal blocks from Bluejacket.  They cost about the same, have excellent proportions, and, because they're cast in rubber moldes, have holes through them and grooves around them.  Mr. Gonzales is right:  a full outfit of blocks for a full-rigged ship costs a bundle.  But there's no need to order them all at once.  I generally buy three or four dozen at a time, and when I get down to a dozen I send in another order.  (Bluejacket's mail order service is excellent.)

Regarding the Heller concept of bowsprit rigging, all I can contribute is a repetition of what I've said before.  The designers of that kit didn't know that yards are supposed to be fastened to masts - and anybody who knows that little about the subject has no business trying to tell anybody else how to rig a ship model.  The Anderson book contains all the information necessary to rig such a model accurately, and explains it in a literate, understandable manner.  Offer up the Heller rigging instructions as a sacrifice to the local landfill, and put your trust in Dr. Anderson.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: San Diego
Posted by jgonzales on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 2:27 PM

I actually am doing a similar thing on some of my blocks on the plastic Revell Constitution. I clipped off the plastic "strop" from the kit block, then took a needle file and filed in a groove around the edges of the block, then strung my own strop, and used it for some of the standing rigging. It's not bad looking. Still, I think the kit blocks are a bit too large to be in scale, and they need to be painted so they don't look so much like plastic.

I also have sprung for a couple of packages of Model Shipways maple blocks, just to see what they will look like, but using these through and through for a big model would certainly add up. They do look awfully square around the edges. Some one somewhere mentioned rounding the edges of these off by putting these blocks into a coffee can lined with sandpaper and rotating it using a dremel. Anyone try that before, and is it worth the effort?

Jose Gonzales

Jose Gonzales San Diego, CA
  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posted by bryan01 on Saturday, September 9, 2006 4:59 PM
 Grymm wrote:

Why would Heller set up the assembly this way?

Well, I guess they thought that in this way the blocks ended up in the right place and reduced the change of being forgotten all together. Looks like a trade off between accuracy and convenience.

 

Bryan
  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Saturday, September 9, 2006 3:28 PM

No Grymm, it's looking at the Heller Rigging Instructions that is a waste of time.Wink [;)]

at least if you are anyway serious about rigging the model with any regard to  known practice as researched by the likes of Lees and Anderson.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Saturday, September 9, 2006 1:04 PM

Good point.  More recent ships were what I was commenting on where obviously better technology exists.  I do see your point.

That does make me wonder though.  Why would Heller set up the assembly this way?  Seems to me that it was a waste of the kit designer's time.

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Friday, September 8, 2006 11:40 PM
 Grymm wrote:

I had thought about that, just fill the holes and tie them around it.  I'm doing a little research, as soon as my book "rigging ships in the days of the spritsail topmast" comes in.  I'm wondering if the lines for those blocks was actually embedded into the bowsprit or not.  I've seen some instances where this has been the case.




Where?   I don't see how an consumable item like the block would be replaced in routine maintenance if it were semi-embeded into a non-consumable item like a bowsprit.    At best, an eyebolt would be embeded into the bowsprit shaft and the blocks would be seized to the eye bolt.   More liklely the block strop would simply be tied around the shaft, with some provision for keeling the stroping from slipping along the shaft.   On sailing ships, the overriding design objective for all rigging items is the ease of replacement while the ship is underway.

 
  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Friday, September 8, 2006 6:38 PM

Yeah, I have that one already.  It is a beaut.  Mine isn't exactly like that.  I'm using some artwork I've found that has the entire hull Royal blue as a reference.  The solid colour is striking.  I'm just now working on the guilding.  I'll send you an email and/or post here if I feel it looks decent enough. 

I am my own worst critic...

Grymm

  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Friday, September 8, 2006 5:55 PM

Phil check this out...you might of seen this already.http://www.therailwaychildren.dsl.pipex.com/victory_website/Soleil-Royale1.jpg

I'm really looking forward to building mine one of these days.

Michael

 

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Friday, September 8, 2006 10:24 AM

I had thought about that, just fill the holes and tie them around it.  I'm doing a little research, as soon as my book "rigging ships in the days of the spritsail topmast" comes in.  I'm wondering if the lines for those blocks was actually embedded into the bowsprit or not.  I've seen some instances where this has been the case. 

I'm probably going to end up doing it that way, just tie them around the assembly.  But I will say that using the holes would lend a very clean look.

As for the build itself, this kit is a blast to work on.  It goes together so easy and the plastic takes paint real well.  I'm in the middle of all the gold detail work and I've never had so much fun.  The hull should be done in about three months.  Then it's on to the masts and figuring out all the rigging.  All the debate about the accuracy of this kit aside, I highly recommend it.  It's absolutely beautiful and my wife might actually let me use it as a mantlepiece decoration in the living room.

Thanks for the help.

Grymm

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posted by bryan01 on Friday, September 8, 2006 10:01 AM

Hey Grymm,

Maybe you should forget about using the holes in the bowsprit halves for attaching the blocks. Why not tie them around the bowsprit, just as it would have been done on the real ship!?

 

Bryan
  • Member since
    February 2006
Question on Bowsprit assembly of Soleil Royal
Posted by Grymm on Friday, September 8, 2006 8:04 AM

Okay, here's one for the "stupid question" pile, but I'm scratching my head at what would be the best method of approaching this.

I'm at the point of assembling/installing the bowsprit on my Heller Soleil Royal.  A slight dilemma has arisen.  According to the instructions, the blocks that hang from the bowsprit run through holes in the two halves, with a knot holding them in place from inside both of the halves.  What would be the best approach to painting this assembly without getting paint on the rigging for the blocks?  I could pre-paint the area around the holes, then assemble the parts and then sand/paint the rest of it.  That's the only thing I could think of besides just running the lines completely through both sides and not worrying about tying them off, but I wasn't sure.

Any suggestions?

Oh, JTilley, I did look into getting some aftermarket blocks/deadeyes for the kit but found that right now it is a little expensive.  I wish I could have because the ones I looked at would have looked great on the kit.  So what I did instead was use my trusty dremel one evening to actually cut grooves in the kit blocks.  A little time consuming, but it worked out well.

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