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Question on U.S.S. BURLEIGH

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  • Member since
    September 2006
Question on U.S.S. BURLEIGH
Posted by hasse n on Sunday, September 17, 2006 1:56 PM

As i recall Revell´s  S.S. Hawaiian Pilot, S.S.Doctor Lykes and U.S.S. Burleigh is the same kit. But as i do remember there was a cargo kit with full hull simular to the Burleigh. Am i wrong?

Hasse.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Sunday, September 17, 2006 3:15 PM
They also did a couple of boxings of the same basic attack transport kit as the USS Montrose and the USS Randall.
  • Member since
    September 2006
Posted by hasse n on Sunday, September 17, 2006 4:08 PM

Thank´s EdGrunde for your answer,

yes i remember, i build U.S.S. Montrose a couple of years ago and going to start on the Hawaiian Pilot. They are not from the same mold. or? They are all flatbottoms kits, bud i heard or did see somewhere in the past, but kan not recal now, where or when, that ther was a simular ship kit that have full hull.  Wonders if it was the old Aurora kit in 1/500?

There are the Imex kits, S.S. Hawaiian Pilot, Tanker J.L. Hanna, Randall, M.V. Benledi and N.S. Savannah.  Shuld need some  help here, to find more mercant ships to build in this scale´s.

Hasse.

 

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Sunday, September 17, 2006 7:57 PM

Hasse,

I believe the Montrose/Randall were ships based on the VC2 type 'Victory' ship. The Hawaiian Pilot is a C-3 type, so they are not the same ship at all.

Fred

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, September 17, 2006 8:56 PM

We had two good, nostalgic discussions about this subject here in the Forum about a year and a half ago.  Here are the links: 

http://www.finescale.com/FSM/CS/forums/434062/ShowPost.aspx

http://www.finescale.com/FSM/CS/forums/463882/ShowPost.aspx

The basic conclusions:

1.  The actual U.S.S. Burleigh and S.S. Hawaiian Pilot were the same ship. 

2.  The Revell Hawaiian Pilot kit, which was recentlly reissued by Revell Germany, dates from 1956.  It was reissued under the name S.S. Dr. Lykes  in 1962, and as the U.S.S. Burleigh in 1964.  In changing it to the Burleigh, Revell didn't pay much attention to the changes that were made to the actual ship.  (There's no indication, for instance, of the massive structure - maybe a radar/radio shack - on the uppermost superstructure deck.)  If my memory is correct (as it may well not be), the only changes in the kit were the addition of some guns.

3.  The Revell attack transport is a completely different kit.  It was originally issued in the same year, 1956, under the name U.S.S. Randall, that ship probably having been chosen because she'd been used in the making of the Hollywood movie "Away All Boats."  That kit was reissued quite a few times under the name U.S.S. Montrose.  The kit represents, with reasonable 1950s-level accuracy, a Haskell-class attack transport.  I don't think it has any parts in common with the Hawaiian Pilot - though I think the blobby 5" gun castings from the APA may have been recycled for the Burleigh reissue. 

Both kits have that strange, semi-waterline configuration that Revell used several times during that period.  I'm unaware of any Revell C-3 (or similar) freighter that had a full hull, and there's no mention of such a kit in Dr. Graham's excellent book.  I wonder if the kit Hasse N is thinking of may have originated with one of the European divisions of Revell - whose products Dr. Graham doesn't cover.

The reissued Hawaiian Pilot is high on my list of kits I want to buy.  It obviously doesn't represent the current state of the art, but it's a great exercise in nostalgia.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    August 2006
Posted by honneamise on Monday, September 18, 2006 6:21 AM

The only Revell Cargo ships with a true full hull that I remember are the Benledi and Savannah plus the Tanker British Sovereign, all the others are just derivatives of the ones mentioned above.

But there were three kits made by Renwal and the subjects are similar but in a smaller 1/500 scale.

They had a "USS Compass Island", a ballistic missile test ship, but basically it seems to be a C-2.

Then there was "USS Sarasota APA 204" - seems to be a Haskell Class ship based on the C-2 design, similar or identical to the Revell "USS Montrose".

Finally there was a "USS Seminole Attack Cargo ship", and this one seems to be a C-3, but modified with lattice-type loading booms and lots of landing craft added. All these kits had full hulls and are said to be superior to the revell kits although I cannot comment on this - I have never owned one and they are hard to find.

I have bought a "Hawaiian Pilot" a few days ago - it does still have some of the 2cm-armament of the Burleigh but the aft deck structure with the 12.7cm gun is deleted - but you will still have to shave off its locators  that are cast into the main deck.  

 

  • Member since
    September 2006
Posted by hasse n on Monday, September 18, 2006 6:34 AM

 Look´t at the E.bay today and then i did remember, there it was, U.S.S. SEMINOLE  and SARASOTA by Renwal in 1/500 scale. I don´t know if any Haskell-class ships was in the merchant marin, or that i could rebuild the Randal kit to a merchant cargo liner?

Thank´s jtilley for your time, and all the great info and help i get from you. 

Hasse.

  • Member since
    January 2006
Posted by EPinniger on Monday, September 18, 2006 6:45 AM
Another merchant ship kit is the coastal tanker Shell Welder in about 1/150 scale. This was originally produced by the British company FROG and has since been re-issued by Novo, Modelcraft and Eastern Express, so is reasonably easy to find. (I think the Eastern Express issue is still in production)


  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, September 18, 2006 6:48 AM

I do remember those old Renwall kits.  The Compass Island was one of the stranger plastic ship kit subjects - a "navigational research ship" used in the fifties for, if I remember correctly, testing new radar systems, LORAN, and other fancy electronic navigation equipment.  (No missiles; perhaps the guided missile ship honneamise is thinking of was the Revell Norton Sound, which was a converted seaplane tender.  Revell Germany recently re-released it, in its later guise as the U.S.S. Currituck.)  The Seminole was a reasonably accurate model of a standard U.S. Navy attack cargo ship from the WWII period.

Attack transport kits were particularly important around our household when I was a kid, because my father had been an officer on board one of them (U.S.S. Bollinger, APA 234) during the war.  The Renwall Sarasota was indeed a full-hull model of a Haskell-class attack transport, and in some ways it was indeed a little superior to the Revell kit.  (They had nothing in common; the Revell one was bigger.)  I don't know how many times my older brother and I built both of them (along with Lindberg's LCVP). 

Renwall warship kits in general were on a somewhat more sophisticated level than most of the competition of the time.  They had individual 20mm guns (not great, but better than the integrally-cast blobs on the Revell kits), and a special feature called the "No-Show Cement" system.  The bottom of the hull had a big hole in it;  the modeler was supposed to insert the pins on the bases of the various detail parts (including the 20mm guns) into the deck and apply cement (from a tube, of course) to the bottom, using the hole for access.  One of the last steps in the assembly process was to glue a big plastic plate over the hole. 

By modern standards those Renwall warship kits were pretty basic, but they did represent a step forward.  The Renwall U.S.S. North Carolina/Washington kits, for instance, looked a great deal more like real battleships than the Revell and Aurora Iowa-class kits.  And Renwall (as Airfix was doing at the same time in Europe) pioneered the idea of making a whole range of ships on the same scale - in this case 1/500.  I haven't seen a Renwall ship kit (except at hideous prices at IPMS conventions) in at least thirty years.  It would be nice if they'd resurface - along with some of the Renwall armor kits, which also had a lot to recommend them.

The Haskell-class attack transports were based on the C-2 Victory ship hull design.  Their deck and superstructure arrangements were rather distinctive; in the long-range photos of big ship formations taken during the Pacific war it's usually pretty easy to pick out the silhouettes of the APAs.  That's largely because they had extensive facilities for accommodating large numbers of troops.  In addition to the troop berthing spaces, they had enormous mess decks and well-equipped hospitals. 

The first APAs were converted liners and freighters; they went back to their peacetime careers after the war.  The Haskell-class ships, however, were built for the purpose.  I don't know whether any of them went into the merchant service after the war or not.  I have the impression that most of them went into the Reserve Fleet.  (My father's did - in Suisan Bay, California - and I remember when quite a few APAs were lined up at anchor in the "James River Reserve Fleet" near where I lived in Virginia.)  I think a few of them may still be there, though most have been scrapped. 

Some time back I ran across a website operated by a group that's attempting to preserve one of them as a museum ship, but I can't remember the web address.  Navsource (www.navsource.org) has easily-accessible histories of all the APAs, with lots of photos.

I imagine it would be possible to turn a Renwall or Revell attack transport hull into a convincing merchantman, but it would take a good deal of work.  It might, in fact, be easier to scratchbuild.  Another good subject for a merchant ship model, though, would be the recent Trumpeter Liberty Ship.  Liberties, of course, were found in civilian colors all over the world for years after the war.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2006
Posted by hasse n on Monday, September 18, 2006 7:34 AM

Thank´s to you all, Honneamise,EPinniger and jtilley.

in the 70´s i walk the decks on Johnson Lines M.S. Rio de janeiro and M.S. Portland on US, Canada, Hawaii and South America trades. In 1947 the Johnson Line get the former U.S. navy  C2-type ships U.S.S. Arcturus, U.S.S. Alcyone and U.S.S. Betelgeuse, and renamed them to Star Arcturus, Star Alcyone and Star Betelgeuse. I would like to build one of this ship, that´s why i´m seaking info.  Thank´s again Hasse.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Monday, September 18, 2006 8:01 AM

For a C-2 freighter in 1:700 scale you may be interested in looking at the SS Sea Witch by  Battlefleet Models

Many of the early AK & AKAs were based on this hull configuration.  Those which survived the war often went on to civilian careers.

The kit is nicely molded in resin with very thin bulwarks.   The kit comes with Toms Modelworks PE set.   I picked up one at the recent IPMS USA Nats and will be built as my father's ship, the USS Oberon (AKA-14).  She was a C-2F, the -F indicating a Federal Shipbuilding of Kearny, NJ.   The Oberon stayed with the Navy until she was retired in the '60s.

 

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Monday, September 18, 2006 10:01 AM

Hasse,

I bought a Revell USS Montrose kit with the idea I could kitbash it into a civilian ship, but as jtilley says, it would be so much work you might as well just scratchbuild the whole thing. All you'd use would be the hull from the Montrose and even that would have to be modified. Also note, the VC-2 'Victory' hull is not the same as the C-2 hull, and is also different from the EC-2, 'Liberty' design.

Fred

  • Member since
    August 2006
Posted by honneamise on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 12:51 AM

Another great build, although not based on a C-2 or -3 hull, is the Heller Tanker/replenishment ship La Seine. It is full hull, very detailed and spot-on accurate, scale is 1/400. It is available right now(but maybe not for long due to Heller´s status)  but as part of a set called "Task-Force - Ravitaillement a mer" together with a French carrier and a missile destroyer.

The hull lines are beautiful, if you shorten it a bit you should even be able to use the underwater part to get an accuate C-3 hull.... I thought about that but the kit is too expensive and to beautiful to just get it for some spare parts.

The Seine and her Sister Saone were laid down in ´38 or ´39, then captured incomplete by the germans, completed after the war as civilian Tankers, then aquired by the Marine Nationale and converted to Fleet Oilers. I think there was a picture of a built civilian example somewhere on the LÁrsenal website but I cannot find it anymore. Truly one of the finest ship models out there.  

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Seattle, WA
Posted by Surface_Line on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 1:32 AM
Here we go again.  Every time the subject of possible conversions from reasonably available transport kits comes up, I trot out my favorite project slated for "some day" execution - the Revell hospital ship.

The Revell kit, boxed variously as USS Haven, HOPE, USS Repose, and possibly another I'm not remembering (feel free to chime in with specifics, Prof Tilley) is a nearly full-hull presentation of a C4-S-B2 transport ship.  The Maritime Administration built a couple dozen near sisters, designated C4-S-B2 or -B5 or -A3 or -A4, all with names starting with "Marine".  Six had the full-length tall  deckhouse amidships and were used as Navy hospital ships, but the rest were lower amidships and were used as troopships in 1944-46, with a very few serving through the Korean conflict.

You can see the names here ->http://www.usmm.org/c4ships.html

The book "Troopships of World War II" by Roland W. Charles, U.S. Army Transportation Association, 1947, has a single photo of every troopship, including each of these.  Lots of different angles, and a few different color schemes.

The Navsource website has many photos, and a few of these ships in their post-military guise.  (see Marine Lynx on the Transport (AP) section at http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/22194.htm, with the single photo of her in later years as Transcolumbia.  It looks to me that the hull is about all you have to work with.)  I ran into some outstanding detail photos of the heavy-lift booms on Transcolorado (former Marine Adder) at http://www.allanfurtado.com/joesidon.html. that made me glad I enlisted in the Navy instead of getting drafted into the Army.

My someday project is to convert to 1945 troopships in wartime paint from the hospital ship.

I believe it can be a good starting point for you as a civilian cargo ship, especially if you were to use a set of the heavy booms and masts from an Imai/ IMEX kit along with the Revell hull to build up a Transcolorado.

Best regards,
Rick Heinbaugh

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 10:58 AM

This is really interesting. I vaguely remember the Transcolorado from somewhere. I don't see a C4-S-B2 designation in the Smithsonian Plans catalogue. There is a C4-S-69b designation for ships built for States Lines named Colorado, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and Michigan. Probably not the same ship but it sounds like the hulls would all be similar to the hospital ship. Here is a pic of a ship I was on, Alex Stephens, Waterman Line, which was converted from the C4-S-A1 troopship hull.

You can see where the bridge was originally placed midships. They just cut it off and welded it onto the after house, and not too neatly either.

My ultimate kitbash project would be to do an S.S. Anchorage, the Sea-Land ship to make the first winter run into the Port of Anchorage, in 1964. She was a C4-S-something or other, with a heavy lift boom forward of the bridge, cargo booms aft of the bridge and after house and container storage on the main deck with a gantry crane for offloading containers that ran on rails along the main deck. If anybody wants a picture of this beast I'll email you one.

Fred

  • Member since
    September 2006
Posted by hasse n on Thursday, October 5, 2006 7:30 AM

Hello Fred,

yes please send my some of your picture´s.

hans.neren@telia.com

Hasse.

  • Member since
    September 2006
Posted by hasse n on Thursday, October 5, 2006 9:14 AM

Thank´s Rick,

 about Revells hospital ship kit answer, can i only use the hull if i want to rebuild it to a civilian cargo ship? And does anyone know where i can find plans or photos to detailing the Hawaiian Pilot .

hans.neren@telia.com

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