Help with P.T. 109

The PT-109 is generally believed to have been green all over, with the exception of the hull bottom which was Copperoid (a red/brown anti-fouling paint).  You're right - no color photos.  There are some photos taken while the boat was on a tanker transporting her to the South Pacific (grey with dark decks) and  one or two distance shots.    The boats were repainted once in theatre.

Your out-of-the-bottle paint selection is Colourcoats by White Ensign Models,  either Tropical Green or MTB Green (can't remember which one right off the top of my head.

When lost, PT-109 was in overall Tropical Green, a field-mixed colour that we have available in our Colourcoats enamels as item US 29. Have a look at Martyn Robey's build of the Revell kit:

http://www.whiteensignmodels.com/brochure/martynrobey.htm

 Cheers,

John Snyder, White Ensign Models, http://WhiteEnsignModels.com

It depends, as it was painted several schemes between completion and loss. The original specs book for the 103 series boats called for Navy Gray (5) for the hull and Dark Gray (5D) for the main deck and above. Photos of 103 and 117 running trials bear this out. As the 109 was built between these two boats, she most likely carried this paint scheme initially. At some point between being placed in service and being transported to the Pacific, she was repainted at least once. Photos of her on the JOSEPH STANTON at the time she was being transported to the Pacific show what appears to be a single color overall. Contemporary photos of 107 and 105 show the same scheme. The shade appears darker than Navy Gray (5) and lighter than Dark Gray (5-D), so it may have been Ocean Gray (5-O). The earliest reference to a green scheme that I have seen comes from Donovan's book PT 109, in which he describes her as a "...dark forest green...". While this is clearly not an official name for the actual color, it does give you a basic idea of her color just prior to being lost. The original specs book for the 103 series, specs books for two later series, and a BuShips Allowance List for PTs all specify copper bottom paint. No mention is made of Norfolk red in any of these documents. As John Snyder mentioned, you'll find the colors you need in the ColourCoats line produced by White Ensign Models (WEM). Al Ross

I don't know much about this subject, but I do know from experience that some types of "copper bottom paint" change almost immediately to a dark red that's remarkably similar in color to the red anti-fouling paint one is used to seeing on big ships.  I base that on an old model I worked on at the Mariners' Museum - a lightship model that had been built for the U.S. Centennial Exhibition in 1876.  A previous generation of staff had repainted it, sometime in the late forties, using "copper bottom paint" that they'd bought at a boat repair shop for the underwater hull.  (Fortunately, museum curators don't do that kind of thing nowadays.  At least I hope not.)  According to some folks who had been around at the time, the paint changed to dark red within a day or two of application.  (As I understand it, the stuff actually does contain copper; some other chemical in the mixture starts rising to the surface almost as soon as the paint is applied.) 

Bottom line:  if PT-109's bottom was painted with something similar to that substance, it would look almost exactly the same as if it was painted with red anti-fouling paint.  That old lightship model sure did.

jtilley wrote:

Bottom line:  if PT-109's bottom was painted with something similar to that substance, it would look almost exactly the same as if it was painted with red anti-fouling paint.  That old lightship model sure did.

Hi John,

The point is not whether the two paints had a similar appearance; rather, it is that they are totally different formulae intended for different types of construction.  According to "Instructions for Painting and Cementing Vessels of the United States Navy", June 1943 edition, (viewable at www.shipcamouflage.com) Norfolk 65 series paints are cold plastic bases intended for steel vessels while the copper formulae (#16 and Spec 52P20) are intended for wooden vessels.  Spec 52P20 is specifically identified for high speed vessels while #16 is identified for slower vessels (such as minesweepers) and yard craft.  "Coperoyd" (the company's spelling) is a specific paint manufactured by the Metallic Coatings Corporation of New York and is specified by name (usually spelled "Copperoyd") in official documents.   There is an ad for this paint in the November 1943 issue of "Yachting" showing a photo of PT117 on trials.  Part of the ad text reads "...the Bottom Coating used on the PT's...also on Crash Boats and other fast wooden craft of the U.S. and Allied Armies and Navies..."

Al Ross 

 

 

 

I'm working on the 109 as well and I noticed that Martyn's had the props painted with the anti-fouling red.  Is that the correct color for them?

 

                                      -graham

gtother wrote:

I'm working on the 109 as well and I noticed that Martyn's had the props painted with the anti-fouling red.  Is that the correct color for them?

Perhaps we're looking at different photos.  Those on the WEM site have a metallic look about them, which would be correct.  The real props were aluminum-manganese-bronze, so they would be a dark reddish brown color.

Al Ross 

I'm sure Al is correct about the bottom paint.  It certainlyl makes sense that a plywood hull would require a different treatment than a steel one.

My point was simply that (assuming that Coperoyd stuff was about like the stuff I'm familiar with), it would appear on a model just about like the red anti-fouling paint on a steel hull would.  It's been a long time since I worked on that old lightship model, and as part of the restoration work on it that I supervised the "copper" paint on the bottom got stripped.  (We concluded that the model had originally had a completely different color scheme, to which we returned it as best we could.)  But as I remember it, it was fairly close to the "tuscan red" that model railroaders use. 

jtilley wrote:

It certainlyl makes sense that a plywood hull ...

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!... :-}  Double-diagonal mahogany planked hull.  

Al  (PhD - FSU - '83 - Go 'noles!)

 

Looking at photos (the basis for my beliefs) it just appears to me that the color of the 109 is darker than the tropical green.  The 109 was sunk shortly after relocating to Rendova.  I'm including a photo of PT-107 taken at the time it was in route to its new base at Rendova.  This would be the same color as PT-109.  These two boats were in the same squadron and would have the same resources available.  I've also included a photo of PT-103 which was also taken at exactly the same time which looks the same as 107 if not a darker photo.

I acknowledge that what I'm about to say is very unscientific.  I took the photo of Robey's boat and converted it to a black and white photo.  Comparing the two the 107 looks much darker.  It looks like a darker green with lots of scuffing and weathering. 

I have posted in this forum some modeling tips for the 109.  These are based on what I pulled out of Donovan's book PT-109 and the two known photos of 109 when Kennedy was in command.  If you have trouble finding them let me know.

I exchanged emails with a gentleman that removed the paint from PT-105 after the 109 sank and he told me that the color was "forest green" whatever that means.  Forest green to me means dark green much like what is on the Revell box except with more weathering. 

Just for grins I've thrown in Hollywood's version of the 109.  A member of the 109 crew played a roll in this movie and was a technical advisor.  Is this the right color?  It looks a lot like John's MTB Green.  Darker still I think.  I've also tossed in a photo of JFK in the cockpit of the 109 which you can find all over the internet. 

We'll never know for sure what the actual color looked like in the field and sorry if I'm just confusing the issue more.  John and Al's information is extremely well researched and you're not going to be wrong following their advice.  I'm still undecided on what to do about the finish paint on my model.  I keep hoping that some miracle photo will appear but I doubt it.  I'll probably end up going with some variation of dark green or perhaps MTB green.  I'm building a 1/48 105 boat so maybe both.  Best of luck!

Dave

Here's the Hollywood 109 in B&W.  Still not working for me.  <sigh>

Re my last post - oops.  I fell into the trap of thinking of PTs as "plywood boats," which, of course, the literally weren't.  I gave fair warning that this subject is a long way from the stuff I normally read about.

I wonder what a load of mahogany big enough to build a PT boat would cost today.  Some folks in my neighborhood got the idea a few years ago to build a full-size replica of the Confederate ironclad Neuse.  They started by visiting a lumberyard and getting a price on the necessary quantity of oak and juniper to build it just like the original.  The yard's estimate was something in excess of a million dollars.  That made plywood and pressure-treated pine suddenly look mighty attractive.

jtilley wrote:

I wonder what a load of mahogany big enough to build a PT boat would cost today.  Some folks in my neighborhood got the idea a few years ago to build a full-size replica of the Confederate ironclad Neuse.  They started by visiting a lumberyard and getting a price on the necessary quantity of oak and juniper to build it just like the original.  The yard's estimate was something in excess of a million dollars.  That made plywood and pressure-treated pine suddenly look mighty attractive.

Its time for a "good" hurricane to hit eastern North Carolina.  Back when Hugo hit Charleston, knocking down many big old oaks,  the Navy had the foresight to grab many of them for use on the USS Consitution,  replacing knees, carlings, etc.

The concept of a "good" hurricane was one raised by Dr. O'Rear in the Biology Department at ECU,  winds & heavy rain that flushes the swamps of their accumulated pollutants

Well...Hurricanes Fran and Floyd, in 1998 and 1999, did do a pretty good job of flushing out the swamps and eliminating trees that were due to come down anyway.  They also cost the Tilley household a 75-foot-tall gum tree, a garden arbor, a big chunk of back yard fence, part of a roof, a 1994 Pontiac Grand Am (it sank), and a large percentage of my temper (as a result of an epic battle with a certain insurance company, which had best remain nameless here; I eventually won, but it took a couple of months).   At this point my personal definition of a "good hurricane" is one like those we had this year:  the kind that never gets anywhere near North Carolina.  We lost one day of classes this year to Tropical Storm Ernesto, which did virtually no lasting damage. 

This being October 31, I guess the 2006 hurricane season is officially over.  As far as I'm concerned it was the best hurricane season since I moved here, in 1983.

jtilley wrote:

Well...Hurricanes Fran and Floyd, in 1998 and 1999, did do a pretty good job of flushing out the swamps and eliminating trees that were due to come down anyway.  They also cost the Tilley household a 75-foot-tall gum tree, a garden arbor, a big chunk of back yard fence, part of a roof, a 1994 Pontiac Grand Am (it sank), and a large percentage of my temper (as a result of an epic battle with a certain insurance company, which had best remain nameless here; I eventually won, but it took a couple of months).   At this point my personal definition of a "good hurricane" is one like those we had this year:  the kind that never gets anywhere near North Carolina.  We lost one day of classes this year to Tropical Storm Ernesto, which did virtually no lasting damage.  This being October 31, I guess the 2006 hurricane season is officially over.  As far as I'm concerned it was the best hurricane season since I moved here, in 1983.

I'll "Roger that!" to that one Professor, this season was nothing but a miraculous one compared to last year's.

gtother wrote:

I'm working on the 109 as well and I noticed that Martyn's had the props painted with the anti-fouling red.  Is that the correct color for them?                                         -graham

Graham,

If you go to my site (www.coastalforcesplans.com) and click on "References", you'll see two photos that may help you.  One is a photo of the MONEL prop shaft taken from the ELCO Parts Manual, showing it in its natural state.  The other is a photo of the starboard shaft, strut, prop, and rudder of an 80' ELCO taken at the plant.