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Soleil Royale by Heller

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:19 PM

The Louvre website has a reproduction of the drawing I found last night.  Here's the link:

http://arts-graphiques.louvre.fr/fo/visite?srv=mtr

In the white space labeled "Rechercher" in the upper right, type "Soleil Royal" and click "ok."  (Note the spelling:  there's no "e" on "Royal.")  When the page with the drawing on it comes up, click on the photo in the upper right to get a full-page view.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 11:59 AM

Most interesting.  I've seen those images - before somewhere or other.  It sticks in my senile memory that I've also bumped into another pair, rather similar in layout to these but without color.  I may be mistaken about that.  I'll try again this evening.

At any rate, it's pretty clear that the side view of the quarter gallery and the stern view I found in Mr. Jobe's book represent different ships.  Or maybe one or the other is a pre-construction drawing that wasn't followed.  (A fair number of drawings like that are knocking around in archives.)  The bottom line, in the context of what we've been discussing, is that neither looks much like the Heller kit.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 11:43 AM
I found it.   The pictures are in Biblioteque nationale in Paris.   Note the great difference between the closed quarter gallery shown here and the open ones shown in the Museum model.   I will try to dig up the Swedish plans.

http://www.sullacrestadellonda.it/musei/images/soleilroyale1.jpg
http://www.sullacrestadellonda.it/musei/images/soleilroyale2.jpg
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:08 AM

I think ChuckFan is right.  I've never done first-hand research in French archives, but I have the impression that they don't offer the same sort of comprehensive information about warships that British and American archives do.  There seems to be no French equivalent to the British "Admiralty Collection of Draughts."  In view of the various things that have happened to the French government since the seventeenth century, that's not surprising.

Last night, making use of my highly defective recollections of where I'd seen such drawings before, I went trolling through some books in search of Soleil Royal pictures.  I could swear I remember seeing a pair of scrap side elevations of her quarter galleries and bow ornamentation, but I couldn't find them.  I did find a couple of photos of the Musee de la Marine model.

The other, more interesting thing I located is a beautifully-rendered engraving, tinted with watercolor, of a huge ship named Soleil Royal that clearly dates from the late seventeenth century.  It's reproduced in a book called The Great Age of Sail, edited by Joseph Jobe.  The artist isn't identified, but the picture is credited to the Louvre.  It certainly has every appearance of being contemporary with the ship it represents, or nearly so.

There's no doubt whatever of what the drawing is intended to represent; the name "Le Soleil Royal" appears clearly amid the carvings in the center of the transom.  Most of the basic sculptural elements (the Sun King in his 4-horse chariot, the animals and goddesses on the taffrail, the figures on the corners, etc.) match those on the Musee de la Marine model - and the Heller kit.  And the quarter galleries quite clearly have open balconies, as the Musee de la Marine model does (and the Heller kit doesn't).  But there are significant differences, the biggest being in the overall proportions.  There's one more window in each of the three rows, and the entire stern assembly shown in the engraving is much wider relative to its height than that of the model.  To my eye, at least, the picture is far more believable.

There obviously is room for quite a bit of speculation and interpretation about this ship.  Over the decades a number of scholars (e.g., Howard I. Chapelle) have suggested that in cases like this, modelers and historians should keep their hands off.  The logic behind that argument is that, since we don't know what the ship looked like, we can't reconstruct her with confidence, so we shouldn't try.  (There are, after all, plenty of other ships about which we do know enough to build reliable scale models.)  I don't happen to agree with that position.  In my opinion building reconstructions of ships - either full-size or in model form - on the basis of incomplete data is a perfectly legitimate activity.  It can, in fact, be extremely informative.  Ships like the Mayflower II and Elizabeth II  have told us a good deal about seventeenth-century seafaring, and the reconstructed Greek galley Olympias has caused historians to make some major revisions in their thinking about ancient naval warfare.  A knowledgeable reconstruction of Le Soleil Royal would, in my personal opinion, be a thoroughly worthwhile project.

But the Heller kit, without very extensive modification, doesn't meet that definition.  We may not know what that ship really looked like, but surely it's safe to assume she didn't have flat decks, pointy-ended belaying pins, a hull whose ability to float was dubious, and yards that weren't fastened to her masts. The people who designed that kit just didn't know what they were doing.  That's why I can't recommend it. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 3:27 PM
The main thing is no one really knows what the Soleil Royal looked like.  All that is know for certain is she was a very big and impressively decorated ship, esteemed enough to be the fleet flag ship, classified as a super first rate (Premier rang extraordinaire) and therefore probably carried more than 100 guns.

In fact her history is so hazy that the date of her construction is in doubt,  and weather a ship of the same name that haunted the Med during the 1670s  in fact had the same keel as same as the one that burned in La Hogue in 1692 is uncertain.    There are only near contempoary, partial drawings of a Soleil Royal, that possibly represent the same one that burned in 1692.   They show a ship with a distinctly flatter sheer than many conventional idea of what a ship built in 1670s would look like.   They also show completely enclosed, rounded, glazed quarter galleries.    The stern decorative design shown in this drawings has substantial credibility with me because they closely resembles a design prepared by the French in 1692 for the Swedish battleship Konung Karl.   The plans for the decorative details of that design came down to us in the Swedish archives.   AFAIK, this is the only detailed record of French stern design of 1690s of unquestionable accuracy and authenticity that came down to us.

The model in the Maritime museum in Paris looks impressive, but does not resemble in any significant way the contemporary drawings purportedly to show the Soleil Royal .   All that is certain is the model's hull appears to be based on a set of contemporay plans of 120 gun Royal Louis.   The stern decoration appears to have been totally fanciful - what the artist conceived the stern to look like based on some rough, verbal description of the the stern decoration.

The contemporay drawing of the Soleil Royal also shows that the entire side of the ship was painted French Blue.  The wales were gilded, the quarter galleries were enclosed with big, architectual style windows, and the upper deck gunports were round with gilded wreath decoration.   There were probably more gun ports on the quarterdeck than the Paris museum model.   The sheer of the whole hull was probably substantially flatter.
   
  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 12:57 PM
 Donnie wrote:
Hi,
This is Donnie from the forum. You say that you got your ship from Model Expo, but I can't see anywhere on their website that they sell Plastic Heller kits. They only sale Wooden Ships.

I am interested in the ship too. Can you be more specific please if you get it from Model Expo, then I can't find it.

Thanks

Donnie.


About a year and a half ago, Model Expo was selling out their plastic inventory at 1/2 price.  Some modelers (I was not smart enough to buy one, or ten, at the time) took advantage of this sale and were able to buy the Victory and Soleil Royal at $50.  The average retail from other vendors was about $100 to $150.
Scott

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 10:16 AM

Model Expo seems to have gotten out of the plastic kit business.  I'm sure other web dealers carry the Heller line - but I'm not so sure the Soleil Royal is in production at the moment.  E-bay may be the best place to look.

We've discussed this kit at some length elsewhere in the Forum, and I feel obliged (maybe wrongly) to summarize briefly some of the points that have been made about it (by others as well as me).  I built the kit when it was new.  In those days I didn't have the sense to do my homework in advance; I spent about two years on that model before I encountered some contemporary illustrations, and some photos of the Musee de la Marine model.  When I compared them with my model I was pretty upset.  Maybe I can prevent somebody else from having a similar experience.

The basic problem with this kit is that it dates from fairly early in Heller's existence.  (If I remember correctly, it was originally issued in 1975 or 1976.)  At that time Heller's sailing ship kits were notorious for combining beautiful artisanship with historical nonsense.  I get the impression that the people running the company were attracted to sailing ship models with elaborate decorations because they looked nice, and filled an otherwise empty niche in the plastic kit market.  It seems, though, that the people who designed the kits knew next to nothing about ships. 

The "carved" details on that Soleil Royal kit surely are among the finest things of their sort ever seen in the industry.  In detail, proportions, and artistic subtlety they rival the finest carvings on the old English "Board Room" models.  That's the highest compliment I can pay. 

The other side of the coin is that, in terms of its resemblance to a real ship, the kit is pretty awful.  In another thread Michel passed on some information from a book about the history of Heller, which said the kit was based on a "bakelite model" (whatever that is) by an individual whose name I've forgotten.  That individual apparently took a casual look at some contemporary drawings, and at the big (but unfinished) scale model of the ship in the Musee de la Marine, in Paris.  I have no idea how the process of designing the kit actually worked, but somewhere along the line the concept of scale reproduction apparently flew out the window.  Apparently nobody looked at an actual set of plans, or even took measurements of the Musee de la Marine model. 

The kit's hull is severely distorted, especially below the waterline.  (I question whether a real hull shaped like that would float - at least at the waterline that's marked on the kit parts.)  The massive ornamentation of the stern is badly messed up; Heller missed the fact that there's supposed to be an open balcony on each side of the ship.  The structure of the bow is a sad joke.  (The Musee de la Marine model is unfinished; it lacks its figurehead and all the carvings behind it.  Heller provided a believable figurehead, but left an enormous hole in the knee of the head behind it.  If the real ship were constructed like that, the bow would collapse.)  The deck planks are ludicrously wide, and all the decks are perfectly flat.  (Real ships, with extremely rare exceptions, don't have flat decks.  The decks are cambered - that is, they curve gently upward toward the ship's centerline.)  I'm pretty (though not absolutely) sure that the spar proportions are off; if those in the kit are right, it was impossible to strike the fore topmast.  (I suppose it's conceivable that the real ship was built that way, but it seems extremely unlikely.)  The belaying pins have sharp points.  (Utter silliness.)  The kit provides no means of fastening the yards to the masts.  (Apparently they're just supposed to hang there.)  And so forth. 

Then there's the matter of the instructions.  I hope Heller isn't packaging the kit with the same English translation that was in the one I bought.  That curious document apparently had been written by somebody who neither understood French nor had attempted to build the model.  And the rigging diagrams were sheer nonsense.

Different strokes for different folks; some modelers have different priorities than others.  If anybody wants to tackle this kit as an exercise in creating a quasi-historical decoration, it's not for me to tell that individual not to do so.  But potential purchasers of the kit need to know what they're buying.  It's hard to reconcile this kit with any reasonable definition of the phrase "scale model."

The modeling press (including a review I wrote at the time) publicized the problems with the kit, and shortly thereafter Heller's sailing ships started to improve dramatically.  (I have no idea whether anybody in the Heller office read my review, but some sort of major change in corporate philosophy seems to have taken place at about that time.)  The next sailing ship Heller released, if I remember correctly, was the galley La Reale, on 1/75 scale.  That one, in my opinion (though I don't claim to be an expert on French galleys), is a masterpiece.  The carved detail is just as good (and almost as voluminous) as that of the Soleil Royal, and this time the designers took the trouble to work from a set of plans.  By the time Heller got around to its 1/100 H.M.S. Victory, the designers had figured out what scale ship modeling is about.  That kit has some problems (there's still no means of fastening the yards to the masts), but it indisputably ranks as one of the finest representations of that ship in kit form - and surely is one of the best ship model kits ever produced.

Heller has made some nice kits.  I haven't seen all of them by any means, but I can enthusiastically recommend La Reale, the chebec, and H.M.S. Victory.  (I don't recommend the latter as a first, second, or third project, but it's an excellent kit for experienced sailing ship modelers.)  In the context of scale modeling, though, I can't recommend the Soleil Royal to anybody.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Madison, Mississippi
Posted by Donnie on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:05 AM
Hi,
This is Donnie from the forum. You say that you got your ship from Model Expo, but I can't see anywhere on their website that they sell Plastic Heller kits. They only sale Wooden Ships.

I am interested in the ship too. Can you be more specific please if you get it from Model Expo, then I can't find it.

Thanks

Donnie.

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Jacksonville, FL
Posted by dwtheriault on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 7:11 AM

Chris,

The plans and instructions are going out to you today. Sorry for the delay, but I couldn't find a stupid mailing folder big enough to mail them in!  :)

Enjoy and make sure to post some pictures of your build!

Dave

 

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Jacksonville, FL
Posted by dwtheriault on Thursday, January 5, 2006 8:06 AM
 croaker wrote:

Unfortunately my instructions are in japanese and are thus quite tough to follow.  I was wondering if you had either the english or french instructions?  I would be more than willing to pay for a  copy if you do happen to have one around still.

I have the Heller 1/100 Le Soleil Royal with the main instructions (on the drawings) in French then a secondary list of instructions in English.  If you provide your mailing address, I'll be happy to copy and send them along to you (if you'll agree to post some pics of your ship...)  :)

Dave

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 4, 2006 6:04 PM

Hi there

After seeing your pics of your model, I was inspired to dig out my kit of this ship (i bought it almost 20 years ago as it was dirt cheap at a going out-of-business sale) and am trying to get going again on it.  I got as far as the basic hull before life/kids got in the way and am trying to make up for lost time.

Unfortunately my instructions are in japanese and are thus quite tough to follow.  I was wondering if you had either the english or french instructions?  I would be more than willing to pay for a  copy if you do happen to have one around still.

Again. awesome job.

regards,

Chris

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: United Kingdom / Belgium
Posted by djmodels1999 on Friday, September 5, 2003 1:55 AM
Faller has, I believe 1/100 scale figures but each would need to be 'remodeled' anyway to fit the time and the activity on the model...
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 4, 2003 9:55 AM
I started this model about 12 months ago and have got as far as completing the hull and all decks. You will see that there are a few corrections to be done to the model if you want an authentic model. CF Stern accomodation is not all enclosed at the sides. There was a brilliant internet based article on this about a year ago too and I have been searching high and low for it! A chap took something like 15 years to do this model complete with all modifications. Considering the scale, it still takes a lot of skill/experimentation to get good realistic results especially when it comes to painting. For the decks I have been doing more of an artists approach i.e. mixing and dulling down tones to get an outside weathered look. The deep deck grooving allows for a lot of lee-way and scuffing-up heavily treaded areas is O.K. I would like to add figures ...anyone any ideas where to get some?
There are very few references to this ship and the only proper reference is apparently in the French Maritime Museum in Paris which holds quite a large scale model. It would be good to get some idea of authentic colours for this ship and may be some more information on other ships like the Victory.

Try This site:
http://www.romaniaksrestoration.com/soleil.html
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: United Kingdom / Belgium
Posted by djmodels1999 on Thursday, September 4, 2003 5:12 AM
Good luck with this mammoth of a project! Post pics on and off so that we can see how's it's coming along!
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Soleil Royale by Heller
Posted by Big Jake on Tuesday, September 2, 2003 9:22 PM
2.5 ft. long, 2300 parts, detail from Heaven and perfect scale at 1/100th. I recieved my Heller kit to day from Model Expo, man what a bargain at $54.00, what a beauty! But, I will wait to January of 2004 before I start it, I have several projects going and need time to finish.

I'm in Heaven, Heaven I say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Big Smile [:D]

 

 

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