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Giving copper bottom a tarnished look?

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  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Friday, November 10, 2006 7:38 PM

I suspect that on a real coppered wooden ship, the streaking and other weathering effects on the copper near the waterline will be small and tightly clustered, and not resemble the broad airbrushed strokes seen on some models.  

 

The streaks will probably be associated with the nails holding the copper plates in place, and thus be spaced perhaps several inches apart; or with the joints in the row of copper just above, some perhaps running down the middle of each plate.    There will probably be more steaks that lined up with scuppers where daily discharge deck washing runs down the ship's sides, or with fender rails where water naturally flowing down the side of the ship is deflected by protrutions on the side of the hull.

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Lewiston ID
Posted by reklein on Friday, November 10, 2006 6:48 PM
 Grem 56 , your avatar really creps me out. Makes me look over my shoulder every time I see you on the thread. Please take that as a compliment. The barnacles and seaweed work really well for dioramas and I usse the on my waterfront model railroad.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, November 10, 2006 5:01 AM
Here is a link to some photos of the Cutty Sark's copper hull.  As jtilley speculated, the copper appears to have weathered into different colors.  Keep in mind that the CS is permanently docked, which, no doubt, explains the vertical weathering lines.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/simonpride/page59/

Another thing you can try is a product sold by Micro Mark called Patina It (www.micromark.com).  When you get to the Micro Mark site, just do a search for "Patina It".  By the way, they also sell a similar product for metal called Blacken It.  I read an article by a modeler who used Patina It over copper colored enamal model paint.  I want to try it over copper leaf.

Unfortunately, none of this actually answers your question.  However, you may want to consider leafing with real copper (no dexterity required) and letting it tarnish naturally.  Hobby Lobby sells copper leaf, as well as several companies you can find on the web.  It's easy and surprisingly inexpensive. 

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Netherlands
Posted by Grem56 on Friday, November 10, 2006 12:39 AM

 reklein wrote:
Seaweed and barnacles can easily be simulated with model railroad scenic materials from Woodland Scenics. Next time your'e in a model railroad shop or your LHS take a look at the possibilities.

Hi there reklein, I was only joking when I mentioned an after market barnacle and seaweed set. My wife thinks I am, to put it mildly, a bit wierd buying eye makebrushes and sponges for weathering, sponge nailfiles for smoothing plastic etc. If I tell her I want to simulate scale barnacles and seaweed I am afraid I might end up in a little rubber room ;-)

cheers,

Julian

 

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  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Netherlands
Posted by Grem56 on Friday, November 10, 2006 12:33 AM
 Big Jake wrote:

http://news.webshots.com/photo/1208521353054402330MuhHcx

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/misc/sail/cuttysark-96-jg/jg-index.html

A very nice effect Jake, first time I have ever heard of Muntz metal. Th real oxidisation here (even though be it in contact with air and not saltwater) is much greener than I expected ! Back to my trusty airbrush for a slight dab of green.

Cheers,

Julian

 

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  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Thursday, November 9, 2006 7:26 PM

One way that I have done is paint your hull bottom with copper enamel paint after it has dried take white paint and stroke from the waterline to the keel.while the white is still wet take a light green and go over the top of it.Than take turpentine and blend the two colors together always going from the waterline to the keel.Than hang it up so that the blend can run down to the keel.I suggest hanging in a garage or some area where the turpentine fumes won't bother you.Let it dry over night you should have a nice patina look.Don't paint the upper half of your hull till after this process.

Rod

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Lewiston ID
Posted by reklein on Thursday, November 9, 2006 6:16 PM
Seaweed and barnacles can easily be simulated with model railroad scenic materials from Woodland Scenics. Next time your'e in a model railroad shop or your LHS take a look at the possibilities.
  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Netherlands
Posted by Grem56 on Thursday, November 9, 2006 2:20 PM

Now that would be the ultimate 1/96th after market PE add-on : seaweed and barnacles. Thanks for the excellent input John.

Regards,

Julian

 

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, November 9, 2006 1:58 PM

Copper roofs, exposed to air and rain water, do indeed turn a remarkably bright, bluish green - unless, of course, the copper has had some sort of treatment applied to its surface.  Here in Greenville, North Carolina, we have a lovely old Queen Anne-style house, the Humber House, that's owned by the state and recently has been undergoing some restoration - including the installation of a brand new copper (?) roof.  It was interesting to watch what happened to it.  Initially it was a bright, brilliant copper color.  Then (I think) the roofers sprayed some sort of preservative on the surface.  Since then, the roof has been a shiny, slightly-metallic-looking, dark brown.  I think that's due to whatever coating was applied to the metal.  Another old building nearby has a green dome.

What happens to copper submerged in saltwater is another matter.

The problem gets rather complicated when one starts to consider all the variables.  For one thing, it seems that only in the early years of metal-sheathed hulls was the metal actually copper.  Sometime before the middle of the nineteenth century the metalurgists started trying to develop more durable - and economical - alternatives.  Suppliers' advertisements from the 1850s list "red metal" (presumably copper), "yellow metal" (brass), and a couple of others.

Just what happened to a piece of sheathing metal when it was applied to a ship's hull and submerged in salt water for a prolongued period?  The theory was that as long as the ship was in motion the surface of the metal would constantly be eroding, and the exposed surface would always be bright copper in color.  I have my doubts about that. 

Then there's the question of how uniform in color the stuff was in the first place, before it was nailed to the hull.  (My guess is:  not very.)  Some modelers like to prepare the copper they're going to put on their hulls by heating it with a torch, making some plates brown, some slightly greenish, and some almost pure black.  Those people cite, as evidence, a number of photos from the nineteenth century that show metal-sheathed hulls in drydock; the plates do indeed seem to show a tremendous variation in color.  I have my doubts about that logic, too.  Heat and saltwater don't produce the same effects on metal.  And it's easy to be deceived in those old photos by the way sunlight bounces off surfaces that are at a slight angle to each other.

It's worth remembering that a genuinely accurate model of a hull that had been in the water for several months probably wouldn't be the sort of thing most of us would want in our living rooms.  It would be adorned with seaweed, barnacles, and heaven only knows what other kinds of marine growth.  If somebody wants to make some 1/96-scale barnacles and stick them onto his model's hull, great.  That somebody will not be me.

There are lots of practical, attractive approaches to this problem.  I, for one, have no intention of declaring any of them "right" or "wrong."

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Netherlands
Posted by Grem56 on Thursday, November 9, 2006 12:54 PM

If I remember correctly one of the ministries in Den Haag has a copper plated roof that has oxidised to a beautiful greenish blue colour. That would not seem to be what I would expect from copper sheathing that has spent most of the time underwater. Don't you have any colour photos of weathered sheathing squirreled away somewhere John ?

Cheers,

julian

 

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, November 9, 2006 9:42 AM

The following probably isn't directly relevant to DaleS's problem, but I can't resist offering it.  Several times in the Forum we've discussed the question of how a metal-sheathed hull bottom (copper, "yellow metal," or whatever) looks when it's been in the water for some time.  My personal conclusion is that there's plenty of room for personal taste and interpretation.  Recently - and completely unintentionally - I performed a sophisticated scientific experiment that seems to shed a little (but not much) light on the subject.

I am in the sinful habit of eating lunch in my car at fast food restaurants, between classes.  The car (a 2005 Mazda Miata, for the sake of providing complete data) has a pair of plastic cupholders in the console between the seats.  When the people at the drive-through hand me change, I sometimes drop it in one of the cupholders, which gradually accumulates quite a collection of coins - including pennies.

Some time back (I don't know how long, but I suspect a couple of weeks or so) it seems I also, unknowingly, dropped one of those little paper packets of salt into the same cupholder.  I then, unthinkingly, jammed a large-sized soft drink into the same receptacle.  I apparently forgot the plastic cup was there for the rest of the day.  The ice melted and a good deal of condensation (i.e., fresh water) formed on the outside - and oozed its way down into the cupholder.  By the time I got around to throwing the cup in the trash, the little salt packet had turned into a sodden glob of paper and the salt had dissolved in the water.  There was, in other words, about 1/4" of salt water in the bottom of the cupholder.

Slovenly person that I am, I didn't bother mopping the mess up.  Yesterday, though, I happened to reach into the (now bone-dry) cupholder expecting to pull out some change.  I retrieved about a dozen barely recognizable pennies.  Some of them were a slightly brownish but almost pure black - as were the accompanying dimes and nickels.  The other pennies were a decidedly mottled but fairly bright green.

Just what that proves for our purposes I have no idea.  Maybe the metallic content in the pennies varied slightly - and I suspect a modern American penny is not chemically identical to the sheathing of a nineteenth-century ship.  Nor do I know whether Wendy's salt has the same chemical composition as the salt a ship would be likely to encounter.  But the experience does seem to reinforce my initial contention that copper weathers into several different colors.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Netherlands
Posted by Grem56 on Thursday, November 9, 2006 3:29 AM

After seeing some photos here of a well weathered Constitution I decided to try some weathering on my Kearsarge. Here are some photos of the current state of building:

The bottom was sprayed with Humbrol copper enamel. afterthat I did several very light oversprays of Tamiya sky (XF-21). When that had dried I sprayed Revell Nato olive green very lightly along the waterline and drew "stripes" in a verticle fashion from the waterline down towards the keel. That is how far I am now. What remains to be done is a wash of dark green over the underwater ship to "sharpen" things and add some depth to the plating. Before anyone mentions the chainplates : I wanted to avoid doing everything in black so I decided to use Citadel Chainmail on the chainplates. I will put a black wash over these to darken them down and when its dry a rust wash and finishing with pastels and Mig pigments to dirty them up.

Cheers,

Julian

 

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  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Thursday, November 9, 2006 12:28 AM

Dale,

I'm assuming that you are using an airbrush and can mix your own colors or are simply brush applying washes. For the copper bottom of a ship, a brush, a rag or sponge will work fine. I would use a base coat of copper and then overcoat with a wash of dark brown mixed with a tinge of purple.  After the first coat dries, apply a second wash and gently rub out highlight areas on 'leading edges' such as the forward sides of the rudder and forward 'knuckles' of the bow entrance (locations of higher water velocities tend to 'wear' the copper). The highlights should be very subtle.  I like to have any streaking effects following water flow lines. Some modelers like greenish tints with vertical streaking. This seems to me to reflect long stays in drydock.

 

 

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    November 2005
Giving copper bottom a tarnished look?
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 8, 2006 11:23 AM

I know this type of question has been addressed before but my question is a bit different I think.  I spray paint my copper bottoms.  Due to health and resulting dexterity problems, copper sheathing and such are not practical for me.  I am trying to figure out a way, a simple one hopefully, to give my spray painted copper bottoms a slightly tarnished effect much like the early tarnish stage seen on old pennies (not the new ones).  I am not interested in applying any other color effects.  So far I have considered 2 possibilities but have not experimented with them yet.  The first is to spray the copper area with a thin coat of transparent black.  The second is to apply a thinned out acrylic brown wash.  If anyone sees possible problems or potential disasters with these ideas, please let me know.  If anyone has his or her own ideas of how to accomplish this effect or have found a proven way, I would greatly appreciate your input, advice and opinion.  If anyone is interested in the kit that I want to do this to, it's a 1974 release of the 1/96 Revell Cutty Sark which, by the way, I picked up on ebay still factory sealed for just $26.00.

 

Dale Scoggins

Las Vegas, Nevada 

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