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Cutty Sark rebuild as the "Ferreira of 1895"??

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  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Chapin, South Carolina
Posted by Shipwreck on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:31 PM
Big Jake, and others, be careful of buying pics of the Ferreira. Most are displayed on the internet; you have to dig for them. There seems to be only a few pictures of the Ferreira in existance. All are old and of poor quality. The Cutty Sark staff has been doing some research for me. Basically they came up empty. It seems any attempt at modeling the Ferreira has to be very subjective.

On the Bench:

Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

Revell 1/48 B-1B Lancer Prep and research

Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet CV-8 Prep and research

 

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 9:57 AM

Looking over the posts' it's amazing to see the amount of info. you can get from just asking a few simple question.

Schoonerbumm, I got your email through FSM, but the other email address was not included, you can email direct at  jbgroby@charter.net

Steves, Can you send them to the above address I'll also PM you.

A shop update.  Walls are sheetrock and am waiting for the tape ans mudd. Raining all day, will probally be able to get back into the model shop next week.

Thanks All

Jake

 

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 6:55 AM

Steves - Very interesting indeed!  Those Revell artisans of the fifties and early sixties were genuine, conscientious scale modelers.  I find myself noting - not for the first time - the contrast between the attitude that those portholes needed to be corrected (because somebody had figured out that they didn't accurately represent the ship during her tea- and wool-carrying days) on the one hand, and on the other the re-issuing of the kit with the name "Thermopylae" on it (hey, our customers are so dumb that if we change a few parts and make the hull green, they won't notice - and if they do, who cares?).

I've got a copy of "The Cutty Sark and the Days of Sail."  I built several of the kits many years ago; somehow the pamphlet from one of them survived.  If I remember correctly, Mr. Carr was chairman for quite a few years of the Cutty Sark Society, which was responsible for raising money for the ship's maintenance.  I think that booklet was designed originally as a brochure for visitors to the ship.  If I remember right, it was for sale for a few pence in the gift shop the first time I went to see her (in 1978). 

"The Restoration of the Cutty Sark" was a different document - an 8 1/2" x 11" reprint of the original journal article.  It contains quite a bit of technical information that wouldn't be of interest to the average visitor.  As I recall, it only contained a few photographs.  It did have some interesting stories to tell, though.  I don't remember all the details (after Christmas I think I'll order one of those used copies), but I do recall something to the effect that almost all of the stern ornamentation had to be reconstructed on the basis of one photo (the famous one showing the jury-rigged rudder).  The emblem in the middle of the decorations stumped the restorers for some time - until somebody found it hanging over a stairway in somebody's house.  (The carving turned out to be the Star of India, surrounded by a garter-belt with the words "Heaven's Light Our Guide" on it.  The original sheet metal "Cutty Sark" from the main masthead also turned up from somewhere or other.  Fascinating stuff; it would be nice if somebody reprinted that article again.

Bottom line:  she's a hackneyed model subject, but an excellent and fascinating one.  A really accurate model of her would be a thing of great beauty and interest - and the information for building such a model is readily available.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posted by steves on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 10:57 PM

Big Jake - I have a a 25 page booklet, that was included as an insert with the 1964 release of the Revell Cutty Sark kit, entitled "The Cutty Sark and the Days of Sail" by Frank G Carr.    I'm not sure if this is the same book that John is referring to (I suspect that it is not), but there are several pictures of the Ferreira, including a broadside shot showing her rig and the painted gun ports.  I would be happy to either xerox it or scan it for you. If you are interseted, p m me and let me know which you would prefer.  

The portholes on the original '59 release are 3/16" in diameter and are evenly spaced along the length of the hull at about 1-1/8" on center.  There are 18 per side and they start about 7/8" aft of the last of the small forward portholes.   I am not sure how well these correlate with the ports on the actual ship, I do know that the small ports at the bow are incorrect in both number (there should be four, not three) and location (they are too high on the hull) per the Campbell drawings and Longeridge's model.

John -  I have examples of what should be both the initial and second releases of the Cutty Sark kit.  Dr Graham lists the second release as H394 in 1966.   I have an H394, but the date on the instructions of my kit is 1964.   I was interested to read your memories of the instructions explaining the lack of portholes in the kit's hull.   My 1959 instructions not only do not disavow the portholes, they actually show them in all of the illustrations where the hull is visible.   I had always assumed that their removal was one of the changes made to turn the kit into the Thermopylae in 1960, but perhaps they were removed earlier.

One thing is certain, whoever modified the molds to remove the portholes did an incredible job.   Comparing the '59 hull side-by-side with the '64 shows no evidence at all on the later edition that the portholes ever existed.   The removal of the ports and rescribing of the planking detail is close to perfect.   Even on the inside surfaces there are only the slightist depressions that mark their former locations.

By the way, I'd also be happy to provide you with a copy of the Carr pamphlet from the kit if you are interested. 

 

Steve Sobieralski, Tampa Bay Ship Model Society

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 10:29 PM

Mr. Campbell's plans (which represent the ship as built) do show four small air ports on each sie of the bow, the aftermost one in line with the center of the water closet and the foremost one just aft of, and below, the lower trailboard.  They provided ventilation for the crew accommodations in the 'tween deck space.  (There was a watertight iron bulkhead just forward of the forward hatch; on the 'tween deck level that bulkhead divided the cargo space from the forecastle accommodation space.  The space ahead of the bulkhead below the lower deck was devoted to the bosun's stores and "fore peak store.") 

When she was in Portuguese service, operating as a training ship, most of the 'tween deck space for the full length of the ship apparently was given over to berthing space for the naval cadets.  At least a dozen more air ports were cut in each side, in a row running from the aforementioned forecastle bulkhead almost to the break of the poop.  Those ports are still there - or were the last time I saw her, which was (I think) in 1997.  (I suspect they'll get planked over by the time the big current restoration is finished.  My recollection is that those ports are bigger than the old, original ones in the bow.  Current photos should clarify all that.

Caveat:  I'm assuming she got the additional air ports when she was under the Portuguese flag.  She did, however, serve for at least a little while after that as a privately-owned British training vessel.  I suppose it's possible that the ports were added during that period.

I ran across one interesting tidbit that may shed just a little light on the changes she underwent.  It's from Mr. Campbell's book, China Tea Clippers, pp. 114-115.  He's just been discussing the techniques for fabricating iron masts, which involved shoving a gadget called a "dolly" inside the mast while rivets were driven in to hold the various pieces of it together.  Mr. Campbell continues:

" I recall an incident during the reconstruction of the Cutty Sark involving one of these dollies, with near-fatal results.  One of the ship's masts [couldn't you tell us which one, Mr. Campbell?] , which had been a replacement after a dismasting, was found to be some feet [sheesh, couldn't you tell us how many?] too short, and in consequence I suggested adding the requisite lenth to the heel, thus avoiding altering the top and its cheek plates.  This meant raising the mast by chain hoists inside the hold, seized around a heavy iron bar which passed thruogh two holes burned out of the mast.  The mast had a full-length diaphragm plate as a stiffener, and a manhole was cut into the mast near the holes so that the diaphragm could be penetrated also.  After the strain had been taken on the hoists, a shipwright put his head into the manhole to see if all was correct and as he withdrew it, a loud clatter was heard as a heavy iron dolly came hurtling downwards and bounced upwards again from the keel.  It must have jammed inside near the masthead during construction and suddenly loosened with the vibration."

So at least one of the lower mast was shortened (by "some feet") at some time or other - and restored to its original length at about the time the ship went into her present berth.  That story doesn't tell us anything specific about when the mast got shortened, but it suggests that looking carefully at the mast proportions in the Portuguese pictures would be a good idea.

Later edit:  Shipwreck and I apparently were typing at the same time.  He and I have similar questions about when the additional ports were added.  It sounds like the shortened mast mentioned by Mr. Campbell might well date from 1916.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Chapin, South Carolina
Posted by Shipwreck on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 10:18 PM
Big Jake, I have been researching the Ferreira for several months now. There is little info out there, and what is seems to be on a slippery slope; depending on who you talk to. What I do know is that the Ferreira was not re-rigged as a barquetine till after being demasked in 1916. Up till then she was rigged basically the same way as the Cutty Sark. There were also modifications to the saloon at the poop, with a new entrance fitted to the stern and new exit forward – these remain on the ship to this day. It is not clear as to exactly when the port holes were added. As of now, my thoughts are that they may be a British addition. I am still trying to nail down this moving target.

On the Bench:

Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

Revell 1/48 B-1B Lancer Prep and research

Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet CV-8 Prep and research

 

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 8:45 PM

There are five shots of the Ferreira in "Running Her Easting Down" by Willam Baker, 1974. One side view showing her painted gunports and a two bow shots of her as a barquentine, one of which show her rig (but has too much contrast for details). A close-up bow shot shows some of the deck layout.  A better, more interesting shot of her rig is in Edward Bowness' "Modeling the Cutty Sark", 1959, which is of the same view as one of the 'Easting' photos but with better exposure control and with the topgallant sail down and sails furled. Her basic sail and rigging plan can be made out, but deck furniture will require some 'interpretation"

Both books are readily available (and cheap) on www.addall.com under their used book page.

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:45 PM

John,

I did a search too and came up with 3 all in Great Britain all used (supposed to be in decent condition).  Waiting on some responces to email to see it they are still in stock, $25-$60. If I can snag one, it's here when we need it.

As far as the port holes are the current model has some in the bow area, Is this what you speak of?  if not I can probally make some in the hull.

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 12:15 PM

Jake - I don't think the Carr booklet is in print; it was just a reprint of a magazine article.  I did, however, find several copies at www.bookfinder.com.  The prices were, as usual at such sites, all over the place.  The cheapest were in the $25.00 range - not unreasonable, but a bit beyond me at the moment.  (Just spent several hundred bucks on Christmas presents for the grandkids in Texas.)

Steve - it sounds like you have an extremely rare kit.  I knew about the geared steering wheel, but I wasn't aware that Revell had ever molded those airports in the hull.  I imagine the kit is worth quite a bit.  On the other hand, I have the general impression that the market for obscure sailing ships isn't as sophisticated as the ones for old aircraft and armor kits.  Those folks will pay extravagant amounts of money for a kit in an original, 1950s box - even if the same kit is currently in production. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posted by steves on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 10:31 AM

 jtilley wrote:

The very first Revell Cutty Sark my parents bought me was in the original-issue box, which featured a  painting of the finished model with a smiling, obviously adult modeler putting the finishing touches to the rigging.  The painting (which is reproduced on p. 123 of Dr. Graham's Remembering Revell Model Kits) shows the airports.  As I remember, the original instructions included an explanation of why they appeared in the picture but not in the kit.  I gather the artist was working from photos of the real ship, perhaps before the actual kit parts were made available to him.

I have a Cutty Sark in the original box and the hull has the portholes cast into it.   I believe it also has the steering gears.

 

Steve Sobieralski, Tampa Bay Ship Model Society

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:38 AM

John,

Is the booklet avail. in print by Mr. Carr?  I'll do a search and BTW I will order a set of the ships drawings from CS site. They should look grand framed on the wall.

Thanks

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 8:11 AM

I'm not going to be able to help much.   I can remember seeing one or two photos of her in her Portuguese days; I'd have to do some digging to find those pictures again.  You probably already have them.  About all I can remember about them is that they showed she was "port-painted," with phony gunports on both sides, below the main deck level.

The first time I visited the ship, in 1978, I bought a really nice little booklet called "The Restoration of the Cutty Sark,"  by Frank G.G. Carr.  (It was a reprint of an article from the proceedings of the Royal Society of Naval Architects.)  I haven't been able to find that booklet recently; I'm afraid it may have gotten lost in a move.  The text of it was quite interesting, in that it described in quite a bit of detail just what had been done to the ship to put her on public exhibition, in the 1950s.  My recollection (which isn't entirely reliable by any means) is that the only major alteration made by the Portuguese mentioned in the booklet was the addition of the row of airports in the 'tweendeck spaces.  (The Portuguese cut the ports to provide ventilation to the cadets' living spaces.  The restorers removed the bunks, etc. from the 'tweendecks, and thought about removing the ports.  They decided against the latter, for, in my opinion, a pretty good reason.  If the ports had been removed, some sort of forced air ventilation would have had to be installed that, in addition to costing a lot of money and looking completely un-authentic, would have added the constant sound of blower fans.)  I don't recall any mention in that booklet of the deckhouses, fiferails, winches, or any other furniture on the maindeck having to be replaced.  My memory could be wrong, of course, but I think I'd recall something that major.

I'll make another try at locating that booklet.  It contained all sorts of interesting little bits of info about the ship that I haven't seen elsewhere.  I found a few used copies on the web a few minutes ago, but the prices were a little steep for the Tilley bank account in the midst of the holiday season. 

The very first Revell Cutty Sark my parents bought me was in the original-issue box, which featured a  painting of the finished model with a smiling, obviously adult modeler putting the finishing touches to the rigging.  The painting (which is reproduced on p. 123 of Dr. Graham's Remembering Revell Model Kits) shows the airports.  As I remember, the original instructions included an explanation of why they appeared in the picture but not in the kit.  I gather the artist was working from photos of the real ship, perhaps before the actual kit parts were made available to him.

The first issue of the kit had another curious little feature:  a pair of crown gears connecting the rudder head to the steering wheel.  Apparently that arrangement didn't work well; the gears seem to have been deleted early in the kit's production.  I've never seen an example that had them.  I imagine it would command a high price on the collector's market.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Cutty Sark rebuild as the "Ferreira of 1895"??
Posted by Big Jake on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:13 AM

Hi Folks,

Since I have an extra 3ft. CS I thought it would be neat to build the "Other" Cutty Sark  and make her as the Portuguese, re-rigged Barkentine, renamed the "Ferreira" of August 1895. I'm reading "The Log of the Cutty Sark by Basil Lubbock, (again) and am trying to figure out if they changed the general deck layout or any major structure - other then the mizzen rig.  Also I believe they kept the figure head, but might they have removed it for a time?

 John, do you happen to have any information of the "Ferreira"? I'm not getting much off the 'net

 

 

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