Nested boat storage

Another thing that's been puzzling me.   In all the reference I have that refers to British warships of the turn of 19th century, including various AOTS series, the Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War, etc,   The Admiral's barge and the pinnace are all depicted as built in the same, consistent way.   The are depicted with a long, narrow, low slung hull, with a short bow bulwurk just abft the stem, and a short, decorated bulwurk just outboard of stern sheets.   The midship section show 8 sets of thole pins that are offset starboard to port.   Apparently these barges are meant to be rowed 1 man to each thwart, so that men sitting on successive thwarts worked their oars to the opposite sides of the boat.     I believe the Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War by Brian Lavery even indicates this to be the 1798 admiralty pattern 32 foot barge.

But the restored Victory (and reference associated with it) shows a different style of barge, different not only from style mention in literature, but from the pinnace carried onboard.  Victory's barge is relatively broad beamed, and has an extra strake of planking under the gunwale that runs from the bow to the stern, and feature oar notches instead of thole pins.   This barge is apperantly designed to be rowed with two men sitting on each thwart, rowing oars on opposit sides of the boat.    In fact the shape of Victory's barge looks more like a carvel built version of cutter rather than a ceremonial admiralty barge.    

I respect the scholarship of the Victory restorers, but I would like to know why they depicted Victory with what is appearently a non-standard barge but a standard pinnace.   Could this be an initial restoration mistake that become a low priority to fix?

I built both styles, and am in the process of deciding which to finally put in.

Thanks for sharing your pics Chuck,

I like the look of your boats and you have certainly given me food for thought - an excellent conversion job.

The launch is converted from Heller Soleil Royal's smaller chaloup.   It scales out to about 34.5 feet from stem to transom.   I added the frame, floor boards, thwarts, windlass and davit.   The grating in the bow and stern sheets are made from brass model-railway accessory.

The 30 foot cutter is converted from Revell USS Constitution's medium clinker built cutter.   It scale out to about 29.5 feet from stem to transom.   I added the stern sheets and some interior detail.  I also heightend the bulwurks by 1 strake to show the really quit thin planking of the hull.

The 25 foot cutter is similarly converted from Constitution's small clinker cutter.   It scale out to about 23.9 feet.  

The 28 foot pinnace is converted by lengthening a carvel boat from I forget which kit.   I cut the boat in half and added a middle section made from styrene.   It scale out to almost exactly 28 foot:

Most of the boats I made or are making for the Victory, except for the 18 foot cutter which is completely scratch built and currently consist only of a keel and a few strake of planking.     The two unfinished boats shown here are the 28 foot pinnace, and the 33 foot cutter mentioned in "Restoration". 

Fascinating stuff Chuck, The Chapter on Boats in the 'Restoration' book Page 79 gives an excellent resume of the boats carried.

Isn't it a pity Heller made such a poor job of the ships boats, a feature that really enhances a model if well done. I think something could be done at least with the 'Barge' (Longboat?) but it should be possible to get four boats on the skids.

I would love to see your modified  complement, I'm far from the stage of boat fitting as yet but I certainly agree that something needs to be done and your ideas seem to fit the bill.

Do let us see some pics if you have them.

As far as the stern davits are concerned I'm not sure she would have had them in the early 19th century. She has certainly had them in recent years, but they have since been removed, at the same time the name compartment was removed from the counter and the name painted in much larger letters to reflect the standing orders of the time.

Hi, George

I followed McGowan's HMS Victory, Her Construction, Career and Restoration.   It had isometric drawings for 34 foot launch, 32 foot barge, 30 foot cutters,  28 foot pinnace, 25 foot cutter, and 18 foot cutter.   The overall drawings of the ship appears to show Victory carried 2 30 foot cutters under her quarter davits.  It also showed her carrying the launch, the barge, the pinnace and 18 foot cutter on her booms.   It's not clear where the 25 foot cutter goes.   Perhaps it hung under the stern davit.   I decided to make space for the 25 foot cutter on the booms by stowing the 18 foot cutter inside the 25 footer.

I tossed out the boats that came with the Heller kit and went into my spare parts bin to come up with 7 boats that seemed to me to be much better representations of Victory's boats could have looked like

1.  I modified the hull of the smaller of the 2 Chaloups that came with Heller's 1/100 Soleil Royal into the 34 foot launch by scratch building stern davit, the windlass.

2 . I took the large clincker built cutter from Revell 1/96 scale USS Constitution, sanded the hull smooth to give it carvel built appearence, and used it as the barge

3.  I had 2 of the Revell Constitution's medium clinker cutters.  These I modified into the 30 foot cutters

4.  I modified Revell Constitution's small clinker cutter into the 25 foot cutter.

5.  I cut one of Revell Constitution's carvel built boats in half and inserted a styrene plug to lengthen it into the 28 foot pinnace

6.  I used another carvel boat as a form to scrath built a 18 foot clinker built cutter.

I used styrene strips to form the keel, floor boards, ribs, and the thwarts of all these boats.     I used Britannia metal oars from BlueJacket to represent the oars which, based on marine paintings, usually seem to be stowed inside the boats. 

Hello Chuck,

I am also doing the Heller Victory.

There is little evidence that Victory had 'nested' boats on the skid beams.

Her complement of boats although no doubt variable throughout her long career, in the early nineteenth century around the time of Trafalgar, she had six boats comprising:

34' Launch, 32' Barge, 28' Pinnace, 18' Cutter (on the Skid beams) plus two 25' cutters on the Quarter Davits. There is some scope for argument about the size of cutters carried, but current thinking has settled on 25' as carried on the restored Victory.

I have had some difficulty in relating the scale sizes of the 'Heller' boats to these dimensions, and according to the stowage arrangements on all the plans I have,  Heller have the boat chocks on the wrong skid beams.

The three largest boats should be forward on the beams to the Foc'sle break, which allows for stowage of the small cutter behind the Barge and the Pinnace.

Heller describe their boats as Long Boat, Pinnace, and Dinghy 

The largest Heller boat measures 102.85mm which equates to a scale Barge.

The second is 98.69mm - is that the 28' Pinnace?

The third is 79.8mm -  most closely relates to a cutter.

 The largest boat carried is the 34'  Launch which is not provided by Heller. (The shape is all wrong for either of the other two to be taken as a Launch)

If you decide to nest one of the boats, certainly in the mid nineteenth century , boats were nested by removing the thwarts of the lower one, even so one would imagine that some sort of supporting chocks would be required inside of the lower boat to give support to the smaller one. Removeable thwarts were common much earlier to allow carriage of casks and the like.