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Mr Tilley

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  • Member since
    November 2006
Mr Tilley
Posted by Papillon on Friday, December 8, 2006 12:12 PM

Dear Mr Tilley,

Do you think there is a good market (China & India as well) for truly good resin kits of historic ships? I am thinking of Victory 1765, Saint Louis 1626, Vaisseau de Colbert 1670, HMS Prince 1670, Artitec models could be modified into kits etc. Contrary to conventional plastic, which has as many parts as possible, resin kits have as few parts as possible. A Heller Victory gun is made up of about 10 parts, in restin just 2. I'm thinking of HO (1:87) scale and as said in my HMS Victory 1765 post, the rigging is the bottleneck and possibly the kits will have lower masts & tops only and instructions for the rest of the rigging which is optional.

 

Regards, Max.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, December 8, 2006 10:32 PM

I don't really know much about this sort of thing.  My experience in the marketing of ship model kits consists of about five years' work as a clerk in a hobby shop in Columbus, Ohio (hardly a recognized center of the ship modeling world).  Speaking for myself, I guess I'd have to say that whether I'd buy such a product would depend on three factors (in ascending order of importance):  the subject matter, the quality of the product, and (unfortunately) the price.  (I have a good, steady, but not extravagant income, a mortgage, a car payment, a stepdaughter's college loan, and upcoming retirement to worry about.  I might  be able to consider a kit that cost over $100, but only if I expected it to keep me busy for a long time.) 

I'd like to think there is a market for such things, but I honestly don't know.  One major problem, of course, is competition.  If the various ship modeling websites are any indication, the number of people who can tell (and/or care about) the difference between a HECEPOB kit and a scale model is relatively minimal.

A few years ago Model Shipways tried to market a version of its pilot boat Phantom with a resin hull.  I bought one and, though I had some fairly significant reservations about the casting in question, thoroughly enjoyed building it and am eminently satisfied with the result.  (Here's a link to some pictures:   http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/JohnTilleyPhantom/index.html .)  But it apparently didn't sell well; MS took it off the market, and has since reissued the kit with a carved solid basswood hull.

Some months ago an American firm (whose name I fear I've forgotten) announced a resin-hull model of a Morris-class revenue cutter.  On the basis of the photos that appeared on the web (maybe another participant can refresh my memory about where they are), it looked pretty good.  I have no idea whether it's actually been released or, if so, how well it's selling.

I'm afraid I haven't helped much. Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2006
Posted by Papillon on Saturday, December 9, 2006 12:07 AM

Thanks mr Tilley,

No, a resin Prince kit in 1:87 would be way too expensive, probably in the same range as the Jotika wooden kits I think. No, I already expected that kit modelling is no viable business and I pray that good firms as Jotika and Victory Models will survive. Perhaps they can win the batlle with the Hececops (sounds like Greece mytholgy!!!) with smart internet advertising (Google adsense, affiliate marketing), their enemies don't need advertising unfortunately.

Max.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posted by steves on Saturday, December 9, 2006 10:33 AM
 jtilley wrote:

Some months ago an American firm (whose name I fear I've forgotten) announced a resin-hull model of a Morris-class revenue cutter.  On the basis of the photos that appeared on the web (maybe another participant can refresh my memory about where they are), it looked pretty good.  I have no idea whether it's actually been released or, if so, how well it's selling.

That would be Cottage Industry Models "Alexander Hamilton".    Here is the web page:

http://www.cottage-industry-models.com/Alexander%20Hamilton.htm

It is truly a multi-media kit, the hull and major components being resin with fittings of cast and photoetched metal.   The hull is a one-piece casting with most of the detail already in place.   As with most resin kits there will be some clean-up required but the casting is a good one - fairly flash free, with no pin holes and just a few minor areas that will need some repair.   Spars are typical wood ship kit practice-you get several diameters of wooden dowell to make them from-while mastcaps, crosstrees,  etc are provided in cast resin. Plans and instructions are quite comprehensive and include a lot of rigging detail.  The rigging line provided is called "CIM-Rope" and is quite realistic looking.   About six sizes of line are provided in both black and tan.   Its a very nice little kit actually, if a bit pricey (as are most resin kits) at $250, but they have been available on ebay at up to $50 less than that.  I'm not knowledgable enough about the actual ship to nit-pick the kit, but there was obviously a lot of thought and care that went into its production and overall it appears to me to be very authentic.  

 

Steve Sobieralski, Tampa Bay Ship Model Society

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Sunday, December 10, 2006 12:48 PM
   Good looking kit ! Also, as far as I know, the first time a kit of that ship has been issued since the old Ideal Models balsa hull kit.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, December 10, 2006 4:47 PM

Actually there is a reasonably sound plastic Morris-class revenue cutter kit:  the one Lindberg is currently selling under the name "Independence War Schooner."

That kit has an odd, convoluted history.  One of the first kits Model Shipways produced, in the late forties, was the revenue cutter Roger B. Taney.  (Taney was Secretary of the Treasury during the Jackson administration; hence his having a revenue cutter named after him.  He later earned a prominent, if not exactly pleasant, place in U.S. history as the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court who issued the notorious Dred Scott Decision.)  They based it (I think) on the plans for the Morris class in Howard I. Chapelle's classic History of American Sailing Ships.  Chapelle was, at that very time (I think), working on his next book, the equally important History of the American Sailing Navy.  While digging through the National Archives in pursuit of material for that work, he found another original drawing labeled specifically Roger B. Taney.  While quite similar in overall shape, the ship shown in that drawing is different from Chapelle's earlier one - and the Model Shipways kit - in quite a few details.  I'm a little surprised that MS, which in those days was noted for its integrity when it came to such things, didn't either revise the kit or stick the name of one of the other class members on it.

At any rate, a few years later Pyro (affectionately known around the tiny Model Shipways "factory" as Pirate Plastics) brought out a Roger B. Taney that quite obviously was based on the MS kit.  (Pyro stole the Harriet Lane, a tugboat, and a couple of modern fishing boats at the same time - and ripped off the Gertrude L. Thebaud from a Marine Models kit.)   Some years later Pyro reissued the Taney kit with that bizarre label "Independence War Schooner."  (If I remember right, one member of the Morris class - I don't remember which one - did end up in the short-lived Texas State Navy, so it could be argued that the label wasn't exactly wrong.)  That's the kit that turns up in the hobby shops nowadays under the Lindberg logo.

It's not a bad kit - especially in view of its extreme age.  The detail on it is extremely basic; it is, after all, the plastic equivalent of a solid-hull wood kit.  One freakish feature of it is that some of the gunports are molded shut, with their edges indicated as raised lines on the inside and outside of the hull halves.  Unfortunately the lines on the inside and outside don't line up.  If one is willing to correct, or overlook, a few items like that, the kit has the potential to be the basis for a fine scale model.  It would be an excellent project for a newcomer who wants to start with a warship.  But I suspect the new Cottage Industries resin kit is more detailed and accurate in every respect.

I don't know whether Lindberg is actually in business stamping out new kits now or not.  I've heard, via another thread in the Forum, that its molds have been bought by another firm that has an interest in adult modelers, so maybe we'll see some of those old ex-Pyro kits again - preferably under their original names.  (I gag whenever I see the Sovereign of the Seas being marketed as a "pirate ship.")  Better yet, call this one the Hamilton, which it actually represents more accurately than the Taney. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Monday, December 11, 2006 9:48 AM

Actually there is a reasonably sound plastic Morris-class revenue cutter kit:  the one Lindberg is currently selling under the name "Independence War Schooner."

   Interesting, I'll have to keep an eye out for a copy of one of those. Over the years I've used the Ideal kit, as a testbed for new techniques, or a first run, for fabricating parts. I'm actually a bit surprised at how well the old balsa parts have held up under the stress of rebuilding, and moving.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    March 2013
Posted by Marcus.K. on Monday, June 6, 2011 11:01 AM

Prof. Tilley did not post since January this year.

Of course I know that interest do change some times .. but I guess it would not be his style just not to visit anymore or not to answer post or PN (which I tried).

To be honest: I am affraid.

Does anyone know anything?

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posted by steves on Monday, June 6, 2011 12:04 PM

I have been wondering where he is myself.  He is still listed as current faculty at East Carolina University, and there is nothing on their website to indicate any recent change in his status, so hopefully that indicates, at least, that he's alive and well.

Steve Sobieralski, Tampa Bay Ship Model Society

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Virginia
Posted by Mike F6F on Monday, June 6, 2011 5:03 PM

He's around and will no doubt, be posting again soon.

Mike

 

"Grumman on a Navy Airplane is like Sterling on Silver."

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, June 7, 2011 7:02 AM

I sent him a personal email a few months ago but he never responded.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Chapin, South Carolina
Posted by Shipwreck on Tuesday, June 7, 2011 12:14 PM

I have made several attempts to contact him over the past couple of months. Geoff Wilkinson has also disappeared. We were taking similar approaches to our Cutty Sark builds and were corresponding off the forum. About March 2011 he was having some physical problems that he did not wish to discuss. Now I do not get any response from him either.

On the Bench:

Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

Revell 1/48 B-1B Lancer Prep and research

Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet CV-8 Prep and research

 

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: CT
Posted by Seamac on Tuesday, June 7, 2011 3:35 PM

I have noticed his absence as well and miss his correspondance.  It appears many of us had the same thought at the same time as I was wondering why he hadn't posted in awhile.  In particular, I enjoyed his insights on the historic side of the hobby - his knowledge about models, their origins ans all the variations of them over the years. 

I hope all is well with him and he's just out sailing on Chesapeake Bay enjoying fair winds.

Seamac
  • Member since
    March 2013
Posted by Marcus.K. on Saturday, January 18, 2014 4:00 AM

jtilley

Actually there is a reasonably sound plastic Morris-class revenue cutter kit:  the one Lindberg is currently selling under the name "Independence War Schooner."

Hello Prof Tilley,

I was looking for this kit - is it possible that it was reused at Heller - named "Goelette Belle Isle"?

What I did not find in internet: the scale of this kit?

The same question arose when I was finding another kit: PYRO B368-75 BRIG OF WAR MODELL

Do you know more details about this one?

There seems to be also a PYRO B312-75 BARBARY FELUCCA PIRATE SHIP CA. 1/350 MODELL - unfortunatly the wrong scale for my taste .. but interesting as oponent for the American Frigates ..

  • Member since
    January 2014
Posted by thibaultron on Saturday, January 18, 2014 7:45 AM

Some months ago an American firm (whose name I fear I've forgotten) announced a resin-hull model of a Morris-class revenue cutter.  On the basis of the photos that appeared on the web (maybe another participant can refresh my memory about where they are), it looked pretty good.  I have no idea whether it's actually been released or, if so, how well it's selling.

That would be Cottage Industry Models "Alexander Hamilton".    Here is the web page:

www.cottage-industry-models.com/Alexander%20Hamilton.htm

The  web address has changed:

cottageindustrymodels.com

  • Member since
    January 2014
Posted by thibaultron on Saturday, January 18, 2014 8:07 AM

The same question arose when I was finding another kit: PYRO B368-75 BRIG OF WAR MODELL

Do you know more details about this one?

This is a copy of the "Fair American" a US Revolutionary War era ship (once again apparently a copy of a Model Shipways kit).  This from an earlier thread.

The Fair American is a handsome ship, and there is a contemporary model of her in the US Naval Academy Museum.

Model Shipways still sells a Plank On Bulkhead kit (1/48) (the "old" MS sold a solid hull version) and Authentic Models Holland also used to have a solid hull kit, 1/75 I think.  The Model Shipways kit is very nice (I just got one). I had one of the Authentic Models kits, it was good but had too few cannon, and simplified, though it still would make a good looking model, and would be a bit easier to build.

There is also a good practicum available for a scratch built model of the Fair American, based on the MS plans (with permission), but to a larger scale. It would help with either kit, if you wanted to add some detail, and improve the rigging. I forget who sells it.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, January 18, 2014 9:57 AM

Can I just jump in here and add my own little irrelevant observation?

I think it's mildly amusing that there is a thread on FSM entitled "Mr. Tilley", and beyond that... later in the thread there are folks discussing the possibility that JTilley has disappeared!

LOL

        _~
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     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Saturday, January 18, 2014 11:02 AM

I think most serious ship modelers, especially those who can pay significant prices, are not bothered by a high parts count.  The big Heller Victory and Soliel Royale are popular kits and have been around for ever and still available.  While a bit pricey they are still far cheaper than what a resin kit in that range of scale would be.  I think there would be a small market for a resin kit that big, though the neat thing about resin is that you can cater to a limited market because non-recurring (tooling) costs are cheaper.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    March 2013
Posted by Marcus.K. on Saturday, January 18, 2014 11:20 AM

Oh - yes...

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Saturday, January 18, 2014 11:24 AM

he just posted in my restoration post of the USS Mississippi thread, so the life support system is still functioning ;)

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2013
Posted by Marcus.K. on Saturday, January 18, 2014 11:31 AM

David_K

Can I just jump in here and add my own little irrelevant observation?

I think it's mildly amusing that there is a thread on FSM entitled "Mr. Tilley", and beyond that... later in the thread there are folks discussing the possibility that JTilley has disappeared!

LOL

That´s true - I did not recognize the title- but our little discussion might just be seen as a sign for our care since Prof. Tilley did not replay for some weeks. For heavens sake everything was fine. The threads title is most likely since the first question was adressed to the here most experienced person concerning these questions, I assume?

I appologize for not starting a new thread with more appropriate title - I did just not think about. Maybe the administrators can fix that .. a title might be "Old Pyro Kits" 

I was really surprised that there are older kids such as the revenue cutter or the war brigg. I knew about the resin kits which are too expensive for me - with my humble efforts in plastc kits. If I am more experienced I might think about more expensive kits - and I agree : I believe too there is a market for kits with a better researching basis and dealing with interesting ships beside the great "V", "S" and "C" ;-)

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:05 PM

For better or worse, folks - yes, I'm still alive and kicking.  I had some medical problems back in 2011 (they started exactly three years ago, as a matter of fact), but the medics took care of them.  I deeply appreciate the many expressions of sympathy and support that my good friends on the Forum offered.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: 29° 58' N 95° 21' W
Posted by seasick on Saturday, January 18, 2014 4:50 PM

You might venture in to resin upgrade kits for existing plastic kits of wooden ships.

Chasing the ultimate build.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, January 18, 2014 6:33 PM

Zombie thread.

Back to the original post, time has shown that to be an interesting question.

Since 2008 there's been a big rise in the middle class in Asia. With our typical Eurocentric viewpoint, it's not commonly known here that there's a very rich naval history in Asia among the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese.

Bronco has a very excellent range of cruisers and battleships from the imperial Chinese Navy.

Japanese manufacturers have long IMO favored stuff they sank, hence no CV-6 but there's a Gambier Bay.

I'd bet that Dragon and Trumpeter saw this coming.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: 29° 58' N 95° 21' W
Posted by seasick on Saturday, January 18, 2014 10:20 PM

Since 2008 there's been a big rise in the middle class in Asia. With our typical Eurocentric viewpoint, it's not commonly known here that there's a very rich naval history in Asia among the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese.    

Chinese and Koreans yes, Japan very much less. Chinese explorers had contact with the classical Mayan civilization and merchant ships ventured to the Red Sea, and around the Cape in South Africa. The "Junk" (the literal and subjective translation of the ship's type). Easy to build and last forever.

Chasing the ultimate build.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, January 19, 2014 12:46 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino-Japanese_War

en.wikipedia.org/.../Beiyang_Fleet

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Sunday, January 19, 2014 12:47 AM

Our good Professor spent some time away from the fora--for  number of personal reasons--and that absence was noted with a distinct sense of loss,  (Several threads started up on the topic; several more brewed up upon his return, too.)

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, January 19, 2014 1:43 AM

The Japanese had 89 ships at the Battle of Tsushima.

Besides the Mikasa:

Ships built by Cramp and Sons; Thames Iron Works; John Brown Clydebank; Ansaldo in Genoa; Armstrong Whitworth; Yokosuka Arsenal; Union Iron Works (my home town San Francisco); Ateliers de la Loire; Stettiner Vulcan; John Brown and Co.

A truly verdant field of good pre-dread subjects.

In other navies that fought in pre-world war one conflicts;

The definitive Cramp pre-dread is the Zvezda Varyag.

Bronco makes the Ching Yuen cruiser built by Armstrong Whitworth.

And the Ting Yuen battleship built by Stettinger.

The Olympia was built at Union Iron Works, but that digresses from the original subject.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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