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WW II aircraft as deck cargo

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  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
WW II aircraft as deck cargo
Posted by mfsob on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 5:37 PM

Finally getting back to my Liberty ship after 6 months on the USS Enterprise and my research has hit a brick wall - I want to use some P-40s as deck cargo, and most of the photos I've been able to find show airplanes with at least their tail assemblies removed, and engines and cockpits tarped over. Easy enough to do.

But in all of these black and white photos, it seems like the airplanes are also a universally dark color, not olive drab, but not as dark as flat black. Did they get a protective coating of some kind when shipping as deck cargo, and if so, what color was it?

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 6:22 PM

This P-38 looks like it is wearing a sock

Toms Modelworks Liberty Ship Photo CD

Note the OD vertical stabilizer sticking out of the back end.   The aircraft on the dock look to be similarly outfitted. 

Other pictures on the CD seem to show an overall dark paint you mention with no national markings

MJH
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by MJH on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:00 PM

As the aircraft pictured above does have its BuAer No. painted on the fin I am certain it would be painted Olive Drab because any coating would obscure the numbers.  Is it not probable that it also has its national markings applied, albeit hidden?  From what I've seen aircraft seemed to be painted and marked up even before final assembly at the factory and these would have been test-flown before dismantling and preparing for export.

I couldn't make head or tail of the colours so I just presumed Olive Drab for my P-38's and 47's, and painted the tarps in Khaki.

Does anyone know how to paint white stars on 1:350 vehicles like these?

Michael 

!

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by ddp59 on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:46 PM
make a stencil of the star to be painted
MJH
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by MJH on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 9:11 PM

In my guesstimation the stencil would have to be about 1mm (0.03") or less across.  I don't know about anybody else but I know I couldn't cut out a suitable stencil - I could barely see it!  Even if I could I wonder if it would be possible to use it.

Does anyone make decals in that size?

Michael 

!

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Lewiston ID
Posted by reklein on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:02 PM
I wonder if you could make a little rubber stamp for your stars? Wouldnt necessarily have to be rubber. Fool around with your computer fonts a little something might come up there.
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: USA
Posted by glweeks on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:39 AM

Would it be possible to use the decals for the 1/350 aircraft that go on all the trumpeter aircraft carriers?  B-25, f4f, f3f, sbd-3 etc.  I think you can get then aftermarket, and cut the star out of the round part.

                                               G.L.

Seimper Fi "65"
  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 8:03 AM

None of the pictures I have been able to find of airplanes as deck cargo show them with any national markings.

Just that weird-looking dark coating of some kind.

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 10:30 AM

Here ya go. Stand by and I'll dig up a closer shot. The coating is dark grey or black and looks like a trash bag. 

Fred

 

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 10:46 AM

Here is a shot of the coating after it has been stripped off by foul weather. The plane was also damaged. The date is probably post war, 46 or 47. The Mustangs were going to the Italian Air Force and the ship is, I believe, the S.S. Exermont, American Export Lines.

These are my dad's pictures, he was radio operator there.

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 10:59 AM

...and one more.

Here the coating looks bluish, but I think that's just the light and 60 year old film.

As for the stars, doesn't somebody make insignia decals for those 1/285th war game vehicles? Maybe they'd be too big for 1/350th. On my Liberty deck cargo I painted the stars by hand with a 0000 brush. Some came out better than others and I was cross-eyed by the end. If you don't look too closely it isn't too bad.

Fred

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:22 PM
I posed the question over on Hyperscale's Plane Talking forum and got a couple of responses which are germane to the discussion (and some which are off the wall ....) http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/message/1166624806/Aircraft+as+deck+cargo And a nice photo of some P51s on a tanker The opinion was that they were covered with a protective finish. Cosmoline is a grease-like substance. In 1:350 scale you could go with a dark green/black
  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 1:09 PM

It looks more like a sheet-like wrap that is heat-shrunk onto the plane.  On the pic of the Mustang with the broken tail you can see where it's drapped over the block (which I assume is to immobilize the control surfaces). It's not something that is brushed or sprayed on.

But on those planes on the tanker, I think I can see some insignia showing through, so maybe they sprayed some coating on earlier in the war.

My father was on a Liberty that was modified as an aircraft transport, the Frank O. Peterson. I think they had larger hatches and a different cargo gear layout. The Smithsonian has plans and someday I'll modify a Trumpeter Liberty.

MJH
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by MJH on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 6:47 PM

P'raps this unusual colour photo gives a clue?  Can't remember where I found it but the caption states;

"A Mustang II (USAAF designation P-51A) destined for the RAF being crated and readied for shipment at the NAA plant Inglewood, CA."

(Note the separated wing assembly standing behind) 

I dunno what this material being draped over the fuselage is, but it resembles a semi-translucent greyish plastic to me.  Plastics were in their infancy about that time however.  Note that the worker on the right seems to be drawing the material tight across the cowling.  If you blow this image up you can see the fuselage behind the wing is already covered.

I see on the photo of the damaged Mustang above that the aircraft's Bureau number seems to be stencilled on the covering near that pyramid shape just ahead of the where the fin orta be.  I wonder if it was stencilled after application of the covering (awkward) or beforehand, because it seems to rule out a 'sprayed' application.

Of course this aircraft is apparently being crated and therefore may have been protected differently to those carried in the open.  It does show that markings were already applied though. 

Michael 

!

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:27 AM

I'm thinking it's some kind of sprayed-on covering IF the plane is out on the open on the deck - it's too early for shrink-wrap plastic (pretty sure that didn't appear until the 1960s), I can't believe they'ed use that much of the new, and expensive, "plastic" wrap then available to cover airplanes, and cosmoline, well, that's grease! OK for guns and other big hunks of metal, but not delicate things like airplanes.

I've asked my Dad, but he doesn't ever remember his Victory ships carrying planes. Just about everything else, though. I'm thinking of using a dark blue-blackish color, with maybe khaki "tarps" over the engines and cockpit glass, for a little contrast. This is 1/700 scale, so it's not like you'll be able to see much anyway. 

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:39 AM
Maybe too early for shrink wrap as we know it, but maybe some kind of doped fabric? Again, look at the pic of the Mustang with the broken tail. The ragged coating seems to be silvery on the inside and dark on the outside. It's definately not a painted-on material.
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:40 AM
Back to the armor decal question....  There used to be a wargame series by GHQ, 'microarmor', ~1/387 if memory serves.  Do a google search on 'microarmor' and 'decals' and you should find stars and circled stars in the 1/300 - 1/400th range.

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

MJH
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by MJH on Monday, December 25, 2006 8:57 PM

Thank you for that last idea, I tried to find some but the only ones available were still too big.  Thank you to everybody else who put up ideas too.  Hand-painting seems to be the front-runner at this stage followed by a stamp of some sort.

Compliments of the season to one and all;

Michael 

!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Central USA
Posted by qmiester on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 7:11 PM
Was looking at one of my Christmas presents today - the Victory At Sea set of CDs. The third show of the series was on the early convoys to GB - had several good shots of early lend lease material being loaded on various ships.  There was a close up of an A-20 (Havoc?) being lowered onto the deck of a tanker and I'll swear that it looked like it had been covered with a thin coating  of tar paper.  Would account for the dark color of the coating.
Quincy
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