Hansa Cog and Crusader Ship by Zvezda

hstry wrote:

Does anyone have both who can tell me more about the differences between the two?   Length width, etc?  Jorit?

Richard,

they are identical apart from these two sprues:

http://www.modellversium.de/kit/bilder/1466-teile5.jpg 

http://www.modellversium.de/kit/bilder/1466-teile6.jpg

Actually, as you can see, it's really just one sprue with parts, the other one being the boat Zvezda is also selling as "medieval life boat".

As you get all the sprues of the cog with the crusader ship kit, if you want one of them I'd probably get the latter, as you then have more options (even the "Hansa Kogge" name plate is included in the "crusader ship").

Jorit 

hstry wrote:

Mavrik, I thought that might be the case but am under the impression that the earliest invasions of the "Baltic states"  (11th C) would actually pre-date the invention of the cog, wouldn't it?  I'm a little fuzzy on the dates and will have to look it up again.

Richard,

I am talking about invasion in Russia (against Novgorod and Pskov), which took place in 13th century. 

One the most famous russian military commanders Alexandr Nevsky took part in this war: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky 

Mavrik,

I thought that might be the case but am under the impression that the earliest invasions of the "Baltic states"  (11th C) would actually pre-date the invention of the cog, wouldn't it?  I'm a little fuzzy on the dates and will have to look it up again. 

I checked out the photos of the two cogs by Zvezda, using the links generously supplied by SKorecko (thank you), and while the two models are supposedly of different lengths, they appear to be otherwise the same identical ship with a few changes in the fore and aft castles, and the addition of  some walled crow's nests on the Crusader cog.   I put images of each on a different browsers and switched between the two browsers so that I could compare the actual model parts photos and I cannot tell the two apart in most instances.

Does anyone have both who can tell me more about the differences between the two?   Length width, etc?  Jorit? 

I'm debating whether or not it is worth buying one of both cogs or, if for picture painting purposes, I should buy just one of them as a basic model for painting pictures and make adjustments in the final painting for the different types of cog.   At $70-90 each, I don't want to buy too many if they are nearly identical.   If substantially different, I don't mind investing both although they are rather pricey.   

Thanks for your help,

Richard

hstry wrote:

Could Zvezda be thinking of the invasion of Teutonic knights into what is now the Baltic states when it refers to "Crusader ship"?

Richard,

You are right. In Russia crusader is almost a synonym of Teuton, because invasion of the Teutons was a kind of crusade (against members of the Orthodox Church) officially declared by Pope.

Jorit,

Why would the sails have been painted red?   Would the hulls have been painted black because the waterproofing tar/fish oil used at the waterline or below were dark?   What is the source on that info?   I've seen several cog websites in Belgium, the Netherlands, England and Germany but do not recall any explanation of the color scheme of the cogs.

I have read "Cogs, Carracks and Galleons" before and have already requested another copy from the ILL via my local library.

Could Zvezda be thinking of the invasion of Teutonic knights into what is now the Baltic states when it refers to "Crusader ship"?

Thanks,

 Richard

Richard,

although I have to admit that my knowledge of medieval ships is rather meagre, I'm tempted to say that the "crusader ship" would indeed be a good starting point for perhaps a 14th c. merchant/warship, as would be the cog itself. The result would seem to me to be generally similar to the Sandwich seal (although that is a little bit early) or other pieces of iconographic evidence.

I have toyed around with the idea of turning the kit into one of Jeanne de Clisson's ships, but of course we really know almost nothing about them apart from the - admittedly interesting - tiny piece of information that the hulls were black and the sails red.

Jorit 

Thank you, Jorit.

Would he "Crusader ship" be reasonably accurate for Baltic or North Sea use as a larger trading vessel or military ship?  

What auction site are you referring to?   I've checked ebay several times already and found the Hansa cog for about the same price as retail.

thanks for your help,

Richard

 PS  What makes these Russian models so expensive?

The cog is basically a good kit, with the main problem being that the deck planking isn't laid athwartships, which according to current thinking it should do; also, there are cargo hatches which shouldn't be there, as the deck planking supposedly was removable. One has to take into account, however, that we don't know as much about these ships as would be necessary for a perfect reconstruction, so perhaps there were indeed cogs with deck planking like in the Zvezda kit.

By the way, the kit seems to be based mainly on iconographic evidence from the Baltic rather than on measurements taken from the Bremen ship.

Just the other day I talked to someone who is in the process of putting one together, and there seems to be one area demanding attention, and that is the fit of the lower hull (if you don't want to show her waterline, that is); he apparently had some problems keeping the planking detail in order. 

The crusader ship is a Hellerish marketing ploy - it is the cog with some modified details and the addition of a small boat that is also separately available. Although the term "crusader ship" is sufficiently vague to allow interpretation as a ship of the Teutonic Order in the Baltic, the intention was probably to put it into context with Zvezda's figure offerings coverng the crusades. For that purpose, a cog isn't the proper ship, though.

As for where to get them, you might try that auction site where they sometimes surface at considerable less than list price which I find to be a tad hefty.

Jorit