A Lil Help for a Lil Subchaser?

MrSquid2U wrote:

Ever since reading Phil Kirchmeier's build of an Iron Shipwright's PC-461 class "Subchaser" in the April 2004 FSM (Article also here on the FSM website at http://www.finescale.com/fsm/default.aspx?c=a&id=1477) I had a hankerin' to build one. I dutifully marched on down to my LHS then while waiting for the backorder to be filled I actually started one from scratch. When the Iron Shipwright box did arrive I was happy to see that my own efforts based on line drawings and photos from Navsource were actually pretty darn close and I've continued my own efforts on that project before building the resin kit. Well, I've reached the stage where I need to choose my paint scheme and after looking at what I think is every single photo on NavSource of the PC-461 class I've only found a few ships that were carrying any 'camo' schemes, per se. So here's my request for help: Does anyone have a link to a SubChaser in something more akin to the 'disruptive' or 'dazzle' schemes? FYI- I'm aware of the following from Navsource: PCs- 551,545,546 and 467 used by Norway. I'm not interested in a modified measure 16 though. The 'dapple' patterns don't excite me much for this project. I'd like something more like a measure 32 or even an Admiralty for the WA although I haven't found those myself? Snyder and Short's website lists a Thayer sytem as plate 7 http://www.shipcamouflage.com/ships2_6_42_table_of_contents.htm on a PC-461 class but alas, without a pic and I haven't stumbled upon one myself either? I would like that system too if anyone might confirm it's usage/application with a pic/link?

I too have looked through navsource for a Ms 3x pattern and have not located any photo references.   Nor is there a set of diagrams for the class at Nautilus Models' compendiuum of Navy camouflage diagrams gleaned from the yet-to-be-posted directories at the USNHC.

http://nautilusmodels.com/camouflage.htm

There are numerous pictures at navsource of PCs in Ms12R,  but alas you say they do not interest you.

And just because a Thayer system diagram was prepared for a ship class in a certain measure is no guarantee that a ship was ever painted into that measure.  Thayer was not well received and was not a real success.   Thayer was the US equivalent to the Western Approaches system.  That system was effective int he North Atlantic.   The PCs, while they did serve in all theaters,  were more common in coastal and warmer climates.

There are several pictures of PGM-12-class gunboats based on the 173-foot PC hull in Measure 3x greens.   ISW also makes a PGM (I made the master for them).

I have not been able to locate it in the mess which was the model room, but IIRC Viegle's book on PCs may have had a photo of one in Ms 3x.

Your best bet on answering your question may be to contact the PC Veterans Association (address on Navsource) and ask them.

Mr. Grune,

 Hey, James at Nautilus happens to be my LHS and supplied the kit and has helped me on many past projects! Surprised to hear that we both have him in common? I noticed the PGM's camo but am still looking to "justify" a little eye candy for my PC. I'm impressed to hear that you fashioned the PGM master for ISW since I've also become interested in that offering after stumbling upon it while researching the PCs.

 Thanks for the idea to contact the PC vets.

Squiddly   

Gang,

 With all respects to Mr. Grunes suggestion to contact the PC veterans I must admit I'm a bit sheepish to ask a question that they just might consider trivial? I hold those veterans in the highest regard and I guess I simply don't want to 'bother' them with a "modeling question" regarding my desire for some 'eye candy'? Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's how I feel.

 I realize that the Thayer system might not have been utilized but it is among one of my desired schemes. I just might go ahead with that one and justify it as having been 'on the books'?

 I'm still eager if anyone stumbles on something akin to the disruptive or dazzle schemes such as 31/32, and such. The airbrush is on standby.

Just in case.

Squiddly

MrSquid2U wrote:

Gang,  With all respects to Mr. Grunes suggestion to contact the PC veterans I must admit I'm a bit sheepish to ask a question that they just might consider trivial? I hold those veterans in the highest regard and I guess I simply don't want to 'bother' them with a "modeling question" regarding my desire for some 'eye candy'? Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's how I feel.

While I understand your hesitance to contact them about what you may consider as a 'trivial' matter, I ahev found that these gentlemen are a tremendous font of information.   Unfortunately these old veterans are dying off at a rate which have heard given as 1000 a day.  If you choose to not act now, you may not have the opportunity to act in the future.

I have contacted the veterans association for my father's ship, the USS Oberon (AKA-14) and got several never before published photos.   I've provided them with other photos & information on my father (long-time passed) which they were able to incorporate into their reunions.  I'm on their reunion mailing list.

I contacted the LCS-L veterans and got a very complete spreadsheet on the camouflage measures applied to these landing craft.   I got camouflage diagrams and photos.

These old gentlemen love to tell their war stories.   Ask and you may be surprised with the answers you get.   You can always couch the question with your trivial statement -- but it is not trivial to them.

Reconsidering what I've already come across can anyone tell me if the attached pic is most likely using ocean gray and dull black colors and do they probably extend to the superstructure like a 3X-22D for instance?

Source, Navsource.org

I've gone ahead and painted the lower hull 'red' and the deck blue, figuring those are safe bets until I nail down my choice of schemes. Since this won't be my only PC build I'd like to get it painted while my momentum is still up!

Thanks for all the input so far.

Update:

Well, impatience wth a bit of rationale took over! I scratchbuilt this model while waiting for my ISW resin kit to arrive. Believe it or not I started the hull with a Testor's 'US Navy Destroyer 1:582 Easy Builder Kit". Quartered the hull, added styrene, compared to plans photocopied to scale and started adding/whittling more styrene until I actually got a result that was almost spot on to the ISW kit which later arrived? Point being, it's just been an excersise to expand my skills and have a lil fun. I wanted 'eye candy' so I went ahead and freelanced a dazzle scheme. Call it a 'what if' scenario. It would never pass muster for prototype fidelity but it sure will look good on display and sometimes that's enough!

My request for assistance still stands though since the ISW kit is in the boatyards and will eventually need a scheme of it's own. I'll strive to make that one more 'accurate' when the time comes.

Thanks for all the input so far since it has led to me finding other websites with a wealth of great information- isn't that the 'power' of these forums afterall?

Here's a parting shot:

When a ship had a dazzle scheme did it extend to the railings? Weren't they actually just metal posts (I'd expect these to be paintable/matched) and either cable or rope between (I wonder what was done to these areas?), even with 'netting'?

Thanks again!

Squiddly

I found my copy of Veigele's PC Patrol Craft of World War II.   There are a couple of photos which show the 173-foot PC in patterned camouflage.

The first is a port-bow shot of PC551.   It is either a two-color Ms31 (Dark - Ocean Gray & Black) pattern or a Measure 12R.   The pattern is large and fairly angular which leads me to think of the Ms31 as opposed to the smaller/rounded splotches common on Ms12R.

The seconds is of PC553.  The bow-to-stern wavy patterns looks to be similar to some of the Ms3x amphibious green patterns.

There are a couple of photos of PCs in obvious Ms12R patterns which you have written do not interest you.   The rest of the photos show the PCs in what looks to be peacetime Standard Navy Gray,  and wartime Measures 21 and 22.  

Veigele's book is probably about 75% veteran's wartime reminiscences.   Its real value are the 30 plus technical drawings of  various shipboard structures.  These were made during the war by a sailor who was trained in technical drafting (and with nothing better to do).  They were approved by officers on the ship and would not give intelligence information if they fell into the wrong hands.   No weapons, but weapon lockers,  gun tubs, etc.   It is valuable if you want to accurately detail a 173-foot PC model.

Mr. Grune, Thanks again for responding! I had noticed those pics (I assume they're at least similar to the ones of those ships on NavSource?) and actually started to base my paint on the 551 but when I chose Ocean Grey and dull black the result was 'dark' (DUH) so that's when the freelancing came in and I added panels of Haze Grey to get a "dazzle" effect. Totally fictitious this time around, but I got my eye candy! Looking back if I hadn't started out one way and then tried to salvage my progress to wind up with a total concoction I would have/should have just replicated an existing dazzle scheme and used the 'stretch-o-meter' to justify it's application. No big, it's just a fun lil project.

The book you referenced intrigues me and sounds valuable for the details I'm still wrapping up on this ship and of course the PC(s) I've yet to build. Naturally, that's why I don't have it!

Again, thanks for sharing and replying!

Squiddly