Phantom help

I've posted a couple of photos in the "Phantom group build"( /forums/2/771576/ShowPost.aspx#771576 ) thread. I have just started the rebuild of a Model Shipways Phantom, which had been severly damaged.

We discussed references on the Phantom a little while back in the "Phantom Group Build" thread; here's the link:  /forums/2/771576/ShowPost.aspx#771576

The source discussion is on p. 2; one of the posts I made there includes a link to an ad for the big book on pilot schooners.

Another good source, if you have convenient access to it, is the Nautical Research Journal.   It's carried quite a few articles about pilot schooners over the years - most notably, perhaps, a fine set of plans by Eric Ronnberg for the Hesper, another Lawlor design.  (Several sheets of those Ronnberg drawings are reproduced in the aforementioned book.) 

If I remember right, the planking forming the railing around the cockpit projects about a foot above the surrounding deck, and has a polished wood cap on top.  The sole seems to be about a foot or a foot and a half below deck level.  So the railing has a total height of 2 or 2 1/2 feet - not including the caprail.  I honestly don't remember the dimensions of the styrene strips I used for the rail on mine; I think they were about 1/16" wide and about .020" thick, but I'm not sure.  I have a small stock of Evergreen styrene strip in quite a few sizes - including HO-scale (i.e., 1/87) "lumber."  When a little job like this comes up I grab whatever size of strip looks right.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Very timely subject guys. I am currently copper plating the hull of my Phantom and just a couple days ago, while browsing the forums and galleries for info on Phantom, I came across DDM's posting of jtilley's comments about the recessed cockpit sole.

I would like to correct this oversite in the kit plans.

jtilley, you mentioned the sole would be about a foot below the deck, and the railing around the cockpit being about a foot high. Am I correct in assuming that would be a foot above the deck, not the cockpit sole? I'll have to check the plans at home, but I don't recall there being any grate in the cockpit floor. Any guidelines on the dimensions of the grating? I'd have to pitch the kit-supplied brittania castings for the cabin rail (not a big deal). You mentioned vertical planks to create the cabin walls, any guidelines on plank dimensions? Are there any good resources out there that would help with this model? In a previous post you mentioned a book about pilot schooners, but I think I missed the name...

 Thanks for your help, guys!

In my case it's more like two-thirdzheimer's these days.

  L.O.L. Now I know what I have to look forward to!

An odd little trick of optics seems to be taking place when it comes to identifying "sunken" cockpits on ships like this.  Even in a reasonably clear photo or perspective drawing, the difference in levels is hard to detect.

   I guess I have been looking at photos, for details, a little more often. The height of the rail, at the steering box, is definitely lower than the height of the rail at "the cat". My comment about photos, comes from having to "find the clues" to make sense out of two dimensional views of three dimensional objects. In this case, height of rail inside and outside.

In my case it's more like two-thirdzheimer's these days.

An odd little trick of optics seems to be taking place when it comes to identifying "sunken" cockpits on ships like this.  Even in a reasonably clear photo or perspective drawing, the difference in levels is hard to detect.  When I look at the photos of my own model (a link to which I posted a couple of posts back), I have to acknowledge that, even if you know what you're looking for, it's tough to tell that the cockpit sole is lower than the maindeck.

I also think that in the post where I brought up this problem I probably exaggerated the dimension in question.  The cockpit sole probably sits about a foot, or maybe a foot and a half, below the level of the surrounding deck.  (I've edited the post, in the hope that it won't mislead anybody.)  The little railing around the cockpit stands about a foot high.  The idea is that, under normal circumstances, the railing will stop any water sloshing around on the deck from getting into the cockpit.  The little grating in the after end of the cockpit sits on some sort of stubby stanchions that lift it an inch or two above the sole.  The helmsman stands on the grating; the grating, we hope, gives him a firm footing and keeps his feet out of any water that does slosh into the cockpit.

 

I think it's safe to assume that all the rudder pintles, gudgeons, and braces were copper or bronze castings.  But the ones above the waterline probably were painted black, to match the hull.

   Where was my brain?  oh, halfzeimers, yeah that's it. Yes, above the waterline,  black to match the hull.

My recollection is that there's no inboard profile in the Model Shipways plans - just an outboard profile and a view of the insides of the bulwarks.  (I may be wrong about that; I'll try to remember to get the plans out and check.  I may also be wrong about my recollection that, in the old days, the cockpit in the machine-carved hull was routed out by the manufacturer.  I don't know how to check on that one.)

   As such, there is no inboard profile. There is an inboard view of the bulwarks, an elevation of deckworks, and a 3/4 view, none of which indicate a lowered cockpit sole. I have to agree that it probably did exist, and would make sense to model it that way. The instruction book does address the rudder, and shows the "plating plan". The general shape of the rudder is there, and also on "arrangements and lines".

The lines indicating the edges of the deck planks on Mr. Campbell's deck plan do indeed continue through the cockpit, but that just establishes that the planks in the bottom of it were the same width as those of the maindeck.  (The cast resin hull has the planks inside the cockpit area thinner than those of the maindeck - and laid at a different angle to the centerline.  But the cockpit deck is flush with the maindeck.  That arrangement makes no sense whatever.)

My recollection is that there's no inboard profile in the Model Shipways plans - just an outboard profile and a view of the insides of the bulwarks.  (I may be wrong about that; I'll try to remember to get the plans out and check.  I may also be wrong about my recollection that, in the old days, the cockpit in the machine-carved hull was routed out by the manufacturer.  I don't know how to check on that one.)  I guess we can take Mr. Campbell to task for not making this particular point clear.  But I think it's pretty safe to assume that the bottom of the cockpit (sometimes called the "sole") was sunk below maindeck level.  If it wasn't, a man of average height would have to get down on his knees, or sit on the cockpit "railing" with his legs stretched out in front of him, in order to operate the steering wheel.  That hardly seems likely. 

On my model I scrapped the two little metal rail castings and "planked" both the cockpit sole and its sides with styrene strip (with the side planks running vertically).  That arrangement matches the photos in the book on pilot schooners that I mentioned earlier, and the plans of at least one other, similiar ship that I've encountered.  It wasn't a difficult fix; the whole job, including gouging out the cockpit, planking the deck, building the railing, building the little companionway, and painting the miniature Willie II, took a couple of hours at the most.

I think it's safe to assume that all the rudder pintles, gudgeons, and braces were copper or bronze castings.  But the ones above the waterline probably were painted black, to match the hull.

   The "arrangements, and lines" drawings show the cockpit detail, but the deck layout indicates a "continuation" of the deck planks inside the cockpit, with a grating, thwartships, in the after end.  Would the cockpit deck be "lower" than the deck outside the cockpit? Good question. The plans don't show it. If in fact this was done, then some form of scupper would have to be built in, to allow drainage of the cockpit. Photos, on the "net" (I don't have the links) show one of the other N.Y. Pilot schooners, with the same cockpit structure. The cockpit enclosure is narrow vertical planks, with a railing set on the top. There are several small cleats at the inside forward end of the structure, but deck level isn't clearly shown. America, which was designed after a pilot schooner, has a very similar cockpit, this one set into the deck, and with grating throughout. America was, by design, a yacht, not a work boat, but was constructed at about the same time as Phantom. Without photos of Phantom, I would suspect that common practice was a "recessed" cockpit, so carving out the hull blank, at the cockpit area, to represent  the lower cockpit deck is probably more correct than not. Providing some depth, in the cabin, is probably a good thing to do especially if the door, and hatch are open. I concur with bronze pintels, and gudgeons, on the rudder,and hull, at least below the water line, and more than likely, because they were probably cast, above the waterline also(I don't see bronze castings for below, and iron castings for above, time was money then, as it is now).  Yes, I would call this a "beginner's kit", as it is an excellent introduction to wood model ship building. The hobby does get more involved with detail, and historical accuracy, but for now, this kit will produce a good looking finished model. which will draw attention from most all who visit you.

jtilley, each time I look at your finished Phantom I'm amazed.  Your work is very detailed.  I just hope my Phantom will turn out OK.  Thanks for your help.

I just took a look at the instruction book for the Phantom; it can be downloaded from the Model Expo website.  It seems to show the installation of the rudder pretty clearly.

I did, however, notice a small mistake regarding the rudder in the photos of the completed model.  They seem to show the pintles and braces (i.e., hinges) for the rudder painted black - presumably to make them look like they're made of iron.  That can't be right.  One of the first discoveries that shipwrights made after they figured out the value of copper hull sheathing was that if you hold a piece of copper and a piece of iron next to each other and submerge them in salt water, an electrolytic reaction takes place and the copper dissolves.  The pintles and braces below the waterline on a copper-sheathed hull have to be made of copper (or bronze).  The kit instructions recommend using brass strip; copper would be even better.

Speaking of copper - the pressure-sensitive copper tape that comes with the kit is nice stuff.  The only problem is that it's too wide.  When I built my model (the one with the resin hull), I started the copper-sheathing process by stretching out some lengths of the tape on a board and slicing them in half with a sharp Xacto knife.  (It doesn't take as long as you might think.  If I remember right, I coppered the whole hull in one evening.)

One other point - a rather significant one.  The instructions don't seem to mention the little cockpit forward of the steering wheel.  If I remember correctly, on the hulls that Model Shipways sold back in the sixties and seventies that cockpit was routed out to its proper level.  The helmsman is supposed to stand on a grating that's a foot or so lower than the surrounding main deck.  The purpose of the railing around the cockpit - as represented in the kit by two metal castings - is to keep water from sloshing across the deck and flooding the cockpit.  (To build a rail like that around a section of the deck that was flush with the rest of the deck, as indicated in the practicum photos, wouldn't make much sense.) 

Apparently the newly-issued machine-carved hull doesn't have the cockpit milled out; it doesn't seem to show in any of the photos.  The resin hull in mine had the same problem.  I solved it by digging out the cockpit with a couple of woodcarving tools, and gluing a piece of Evergreen scribed styrene in the bottom.  That took about half an hour.  Not a big deal, but the point really should have been made in the kit instructions.  (I suspect Mr. Campbell took it for granted when he drew the plans.)

Here's a photo of how mine came out:  http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/JohnTilleyPhantom/photos/photo3.html

Notice also how the sliding hatch in the companionway is worked into the construction of the cockpit.  I gouged out some resin underneath and installed a little ladder, so there's a little illusion of a hollow hull.    The photo also shows the copper rudder pintles and braces - and the trimmed-down copper hull sheathing.  The HO-scale cat looking down the companion is painted in the authentic markings of Willie II, my landlord.

Hope all that helps a little bit.  Good luck.

I honestly don't remember how the various views are laid out on the sheets.  "Outboard profile" is a fancy term for a side view of the ship from the outside.  (An "inboard profile" is a cross-section of the ship through the longitudinal centerline.  If I remember correctly, there's no inboard profile among the MS Phantom plans.)  My recollection is that the outboard profile is on the same sheet as the lines plan (which shows the cross sections, buttock lines, and waterlines); I could be mistaken about that.  At any rate, somewhere among those plans there has to be an outboard profile.  If not, you've got a defective kit.

I'm at the office and the plans that came with my kit are at home, but if I remember correctly the third sheet is a set of detail sketches that offer suggestions for making various rigging fittings out of wire.  That sheet was part of the package when the kit was originally released, back in the sixties.  Frankly, the drawings (which suggest, for instance, bending pieces of wire to look sort of like turnbuckles) are kind of crude by modern standards.  Mr. Campbell was describing the sort of thing a beginner could handle in the sixties; there are better ways of doing such things nowadays.  Maybe ModelExpo figured that sheet had been rendered obsolete by the material in the new instruction book (which is far more detailed and comprehensive than the minimal text that came with the kit originally).  Or maybe your kit was supposed to have that sheet in it.  I honestly don't know.

At any rate, I think you'll find the shape of the rudder on that sheet that's labeled "Arrangement and Lines."

You can download the instruction book from the Model Expo website, but not the plans.  I guess the company doesn't want to provide all the material for a scratch-building project free of charge.  If your kit is defective, though, ME has a pretty good reputation for customer service; I'm sure an e-mail or phone call will solve the problem.

jtilley wrote:

You can trace the shape of the rudder from the outboard profile of the ship.

Thanks, this helps alot.  I just have a question about the quote above.  What "outboard profile?"  Is this located on the plan sheet 2 of 3?  I seem to be missing 3 of 3.  I don't see anything that is labeled outboard.  I have the rigging (1 of 3) and the arrangement and lines (2 of 3).  The parts list only includes p/n for 2 plan sheets, but I don't think I have all the plans. 

Is there some place I can download the entire set of plans?

I don't have a problem with measuring, I just need to know *which* element to measure.

Thanks for the detail, and I will be moving to Group Build.

Lew.

You can trace the shape of the rudder from the outboard profile of the ship.  The forward edge of the rudder should be the same thickness as the sternpost.  That thickness should be maintained for the width of the rudder post (i.e., the part that projects vertically up into the hull.  In the real ship, that's a separate piece of wood.)  Aft of the rudder post, the planks that make up the rest of the rudder are tapered slightly toward the stern.

The plans in this kit are excellent.  Remember, though, one of the big differences between a wood kit and a plastic one:  the draftsman who draws the plans shows almost all the information on a few big views, rather than lots of little ones.  Almost all the information you need to make that rudder is on the outboard profile.  Get used to measuring, and even tracing, small parts from the big sheets.  That nice perspective drawing on one of the sheets is a handy bonus; not all ship plan sets include such things.

Remember also that Mr. Campbell was not drawing plans for a model; he was drawing plans of the real ship.  (That's what an experienced modeler wants.  Tell him/her what the real thing looked like, and let him/her figure out how to represent it in model form.  I seem to recall that the kit instructions say that some details - the bars on the windows of the skylight, I think - are "so small they're impossible to reproduce to scale."  Them's fightin' words.)  The Phantom kit I bought included a sheet of rigging details, on which Mr. Campbell suggested some ways of simplifying rigging fittings and making them out of wire.  Great - since the other drawings show how the real ones worked.  But I think there are better ways to make some of those fittings than the sixties-vintage techniques Mr. Campbell suggested.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

I'm still on the hull.  Donnie would be a good one to ask on this subject.  I have the kit's plans and the one I down loaded from Model Shipways.

Roy

I'm still working on the hull.  In all fairness I have not spent that much time as of late.  If you want, we started a Phantom group build in the group build section.  There are only three of us at this point.  If you join we will have four.  Donnie is one of the group members.  He has not started his Phantom as he is still working on his Sultana GB.  You should check out that build, some great WIP.  Looking forward to you joining our build,

Roy

 

Is anyone on the rudder yet?  I have been struggling with this for a few days.  My kit wasn't complete when I purchased it, and I had to get plans from the manufacturer.  However, there isn't any (that I can find) information on the rudder, as to which wood to use, dimensions, etc., other than "A guide to building the Model Shipways kit," but it isn't very specific either.

Does anyone have some thoughts?

Lew.

wyoroy wrote:

Any help or advice would be grateful. I'm using "Modeling the New York Pilot Boat" by Chuck Passaro to aid in the construction.  It seems to be more detailed than the kit directions.

Roy,

I too have started this model back in March and I am having some struggles with it as well.  Are you still working on the hull?  When the plans in the kit weren't expanatory enough (this is supposed to be a beginner's kit), I went to the hobby shop where I purchased it.  The "pro" at modeling told me to "do just about whatever you want."

I found this a little odd, but I plugged along.  After reading Chuck's doc, I determined that it isn't very precise, and you can make modifications as you would like.

So, you don't have to be "too" precise, eventhough you, and probably like me, want to get it as close as possible. 

Lew.

Your wish is my command.  I have just started to shape my hull.  As you may notice this is my first wooden solid hull ship.

Roy

I am interested in this boat too. I wish that you would start a group build in the "group build" section. Just call it "Model Shipways Phanton GB"  I encourage you to do so. This way when some others or like me get around to it, I can follow your build on it.

Donnie 

wyoroy wrote:

Maybe we should start a two man Phantom group build

 

Sounds good to me. I hope to get some done this weekend. Not far enough to post pictures yet. 

Thanks for the link.  I do enjoy building this ship even if the hull is giving me trouble. 

For what little it's worth, here's a link to some pictures of the Phantom I built a few years ago:

http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/JohnTilleyPhantom/index.html

The kit was from Model Shipways, but was fundamentally different from the one you guys are working on.  MS briefly offered the kit with a cast-resin hull.  That's the version I bought - largely because I was curious to see what it would be like.  (Verdict:  this particular resin hull had some problems, some of which were hard to understand.  Why, for instance, were the grooves between the planks indicated on the deck but not on the exterior of the hull?  And how did the designer miss that prominent "step" at the base of the bulwarks - which is shown on the plans and described quite clearly in the instructions?  But I think the basic idea was sound.  I wish MS hadn't given up on it.)

At any rate, the kit they're selling now has a machine-carved wood hull, which I haven't seen.  I therefore can't offer much help with the early stages.  But maybe those pictures will be of some use later on.

Good luck.  She's a beautiful little ship, and it's a great hobby.

Maybe we should start a two man Phantom group build

I have just started. I am just about as far as i've described above. Next is to carve the "step" along the rail.

How far along are you on your Phantom?

I will give that a try.  This will be my first wooden kit. 

Thanks a bunch,

Roy

I am working on this kit too. The first thing I did was plane the bottom of the hull to get an 1/8" flat to attach the keel ( later ). Then I made sure the front template matched. Next, I removed some material from the stern until the templates matched. Finally mark the positions for the cross section templates and start carving the hull. I had to remove a little from the rails. Look at the pictures in Chuck's instruction and you should be OK. It is an excellent guide.