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Painting Britannia metal

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 10:08 PM

When you think about the finished appearance of wood parts on a ship model, remember that different modelers are aiming at different effects.

The HECEPOB (Hideously Expensive Continental European Plank-On-Bulkhead) companies are fond of supplying woods like walnut and mahogany in their kits.  Those woods, when finished carefully with varnish, shellac, and/or wax, do indeed look nice.  Experienced scale modelers, however, don't like them much, because the grain is ludicrously out of scale.  If you'd planked the deck of your Sultana with mahogany or walnut, a 1/64-scale sailor would trip over the grain.  (Caveat:  some of the walnut supplied in HECEPOB kits is a very different species than one encounters in American lumber yards - with a much finer grain than the usual American stuff.)  A ship model that's finished like a piece of fine furniture may look nice.  But it doesn't really look much like a ship.

There are lots of styles of ship modeling - and the hobby surely has room for all of them.  The wonderful old "Board Room" -style models of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries didn't look much like real ships either.  Quite apart from the fact that the planks were usually omitted from their bottoms, they exhibited all sorts of stylistic conventions that were at odds with reality.  (The bright red paint on their inboard works almost certainly was too bright, and it's widely believed that the typical eighteenth-century British warship had yellow ochre paint on many of the parts that the models would have us believe were gold-leafed.)  Model Shipways kits are designed to be finished "realistically" - in the colors that were on the real ships.  A model finished that way isn't going to look like a "Board Room" model - or one built from a HECEPOB kit.

One of my predecessors at the maritime museum where I used to work was quite emphatically of the opinion that ship models HAD to be painted.  His logic was that the real ships were painted, and a model that didn't replicate the color scheme of the original ship wasn't an accurate model.  I don't agree.  In my opinion that argument makes as much sense as an assertion that all photographs HAVE to be taken in color.  The term "scale model," in my opinion, is broad enough to embrace quite a variety of modeling styles; that's one of the things that make the hobby so fascinating.  Compare Harold Hahn's plank-on-frame model of the Continental Frigate Hancock (as illustrated in his fine book, Ships of the American Revolution and Their Models) with my plank-on-solid one.  We used the same basic plans and other references.  Harold's is an exquisite, unpainted model; mine is painted (and, in most respects, decidedly less skillful in execution than his).  Nobody could possibly mistake one of those models for the other.  But I think Harold and I both are justified in calling them scale models - of the same ship. 

One of the things that make Donald McNarry such an incredible ship modeler is that he doesn't restrict himself to any one style of modeling.  He understands all of them thoroughly - and is a master of all of them.

Any experienced scale ship modeler will tell you that basswood is not the very best wood available for ship modeling - but it's not bad.  The grain is nice and fine, it takes paint well and glues superbly, and in terms of hardness it makes a nice compromise between balsa and pine, which are too soft, and the hard fruitwoods, which are a LOT harder (and harder to find - and thus more expensive).  It also seems to be quite stable; it doesn't warp unpredictably (like boxwood) or secrete nasty juices (like pine).  The bottom line for the model companies, though, is that basswood is relatively cheap.  The suppliers mill it into a huge variety of shapes and sizes, and the supply of it seems to be virtually limitless.  But basswood doesn't lend itself to the beautiful, deep-look finish that the cabinet-makers' woods do. 

If I were designing the ideal wood ship model kit (ideal by my personal definition, that is), it probably would include some basswood in places that wouldn't be visible on the finished model (e.g., planks that would be covered with copper sheathing, or structural components inside the hull).  The other wood parts would be holly, apple, cherry, maple, pearwood, and boxwood - maybe with a little ebony and European walnut thrown in for contrast.  The fittings would be brass (maybe with some in styrene and/or resin) and britannia (for parts, such as rigging blocks, that are better cast in flexible rubber molds).  It would be a beautiful kit.  The only problem would be that people of my income level wouldn't be able to afford it.

Now that you've got one of the MS kits under your belt, maybe you'll want to tackle another one and replace some of the wood parts with more exotic hardwoods.  (Holly veneer, for instance, is superb for deck and hull planking - and, in the quantities required for a project like this, doesn't cost much.)  The stuff is available all right, if you know where to look.  I do NOT, however, recommend shifting over into the not-quite-parallel universe of the HECEPOBs.  They may look nice in the photos, but (with, admittedly, some exceptions) they simply are not scale models.

Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Madison, Mississippi
Posted by Donnie on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 3:49 PM

I am almost finished with the Sultana that I bought from Model Shipways back June 06. The paint that they use is horrible. Yes, now to think about it, it does have a gelatin texture to it and in some cases a mayonaise type texture as well. It does NOT attrack well to any metal parts. You have to dab it on.

I see some of these wooden ships out there that have such a nice natural finish to them and have this slight gloss and what seems like very high quality wood, but the sultana is all basswood.

I am not here to put down that model. All I can say is that since I am building this model:

1) I don't see that this ship is for beginners like they say.

2) I still think the plans can be better.

3) not enough rigging and blocks. iF you build the ship like it is supposed to be according to plans, well, you are going to run out of rigging and blocks.

4) not enough eye bolts (the tiny brass eyebolts) finally has to resort to making my own - ran of them.

5) the dowels that came with ship was not enough dowel length to finish the model either. 

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 8:39 AM

Ship modelers got into the habit of priming metal parts a long time ago - for three basic reasons.  One - it made the paint stick better.  (That was especially important in the days before modern hobby paints; many of the commonly-available paints, such as the "japan colors" Model Shipways recommended, didn't "grab" to shiny surfaces.)  Two - it gave the parts a uniform, neutral color that could be covered nicely with a relatively thin layer of the finish coat.  (That's a big reason why modelers use primer nowadays on plastic models.  A grey primer coat sometimes covers the difference between two colors of plastic more easily than two or three layers of the finish color.)  Three - it reduced, at least slightly, the risk of the dreaded "lead disease."  That phenomenon, an oxidation process that frequently (not always) made cast fittings with lead in them dissolve into a white powder over time, was the bane of ship modelers for decades.  "Encapsulating" the lead (or lead alloy) parts in a layer of primer seemed to help a little - though it was no guarantee.

Nowadays number three is, fortunately, a thing of the past.  Lead alloy castings are rare (unless you're buying an old kit from somewhere like E-bay); the manufacturers have found better materials, such as britannia.  Acrylic paint does seem to stick reasonably well to britannia with no primer.  I like to use a thin coat of the stuff, mainly to eliminate the original metallic appearance of the part.  And it does seem to make the finish coat a little less likely to rub off. 

I'm a big fan of the metal primer Floquil sells in aerosal cans for military miniatures - not because it has any magical properties, but because it's a nice, neutral grey in color, goes on easily in thin coats, and dries fast.  But Ed's right:  just about any neutral grey primer will work.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:33 AM
 jtilley wrote:

I've bought quite a few of the Model Shipways acrylic colors, and I have to say I've had inconsistent experiences with them.  The browns, white, and black have worked fine - just about like PolyScale.  But for some reason I've had bad luck with several shades of blue and green.  The stuff comes out of the jar in a gelatinous, waxy state that no amount of stirring seems to cure, and doesn't cover well.  I should point out that I bought those colors years ago; the fact that they've been sitting in my workshop for so long may be affecting them, and it's entirely possible that the company has changed the formula since I bought them.  But if you have similar problems with MS paints, don't be in a hurry to blame yourself.

I've had similar experiences with the ModelShipways paints, except mine was all bad.   The paint had the consistency of mayonaisse.  When thinned enough to use it was so transparent that it did not cover.   One of the worst modeling purchases I ever made.  I threw all of them away.  This was their 'improved' formula from about 10 years back.

As far as priming white metal - you don't need to look for too exotic a primer.  I have had excellent results with Krylon gray primer,  also Plasticote from Walmart or American Tradition from Lowes make very good gray pimers (They are also a bit less expensive).   The trick is to spray several light coats as opposed to one heavy one.

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 3:44 AM

I've had no problem with using Tamiya aqualic paint directly on Britannia metal parts.  The paint surface is not as durable as when applied to plastic, but it is durable enough with little need for touch up after normal handling in the course of assembly.

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, April 9, 2007 10:55 PM

Well, I've gotten perfectly satisfactory results by applying a coat of Floquil grey primer (either brush or aerosal can), letting it dry (which takes a few minutes), and then brush-painting with acrylic.  My personal favorite acrylic brand is PolyScale, but I also use Testor's Acryl when I like one of its colors better.

I've bought quite a few of the Model Shipways acrylic colors, and I have to say I've had inconsistent experiences with them.  The browns, white, and black have worked fine - just about like PolyScale.  But for some reason I've had bad luck with several shades of blue and green.  The stuff comes out of the jar in a gelatinous, waxy state that no amount of stirring seems to cure, and doesn't cover well.  I should point out that I bought those colors years ago; the fact that they've been sitting in my workshop for so long may be affecting them, and it's entirely possible that the company has changed the formula since I bought them.  But if you have similar problems with MS paints, don't be in a hurry to blame yourself.

Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Madison, Mississippi
Painting Britannia metal
Posted by Donnie on Monday, April 9, 2007 7:38 PM

Someone please offer the way to paint Britannia metal parts. I am using Model Shipways paint that I ordered for my ship. Well, even though I am almost finished with it, I still wish to know the best way. I had read somewhere (I did do a search) that someone used a primer or something to that affect.

Please give details as to what "brand" of paint - what kind of paint or primer, even the part number of the paint. the technique that you used - even if it is a simple technique. I like simple.

Thanks in advance. I have almost completed my Sultana 1767 Schooner that I bought from Model Shipways and I will be posting pics maybe in about a month. I started on this ship June 06 and it has taken me this long to complete (I still have the yards and associated rigging to do) 

 

Thanks everyone

Donnie 

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

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