Freakin' out on 1/700 PE - HELP

Gerarddm wrote:

I am stunned into inactivity by the beautiful GMM 1/700 PE set for Yamato/Musashi. OMG, I wish I had tackled this 20 years ago; these middle aged eyes and hands may not be up to this.  Questions: Do I need to primer these parts with something different than the kit itself? Should I attach the parts, THEN paint? Is CA the only thing to use to attach? Other suggestions? I just cannot believe how beautifully delicate this PE fret is, wow. Scary.

Paint the PE before assembly.  I've found that priming it is generally not required when using enamels.   When I use acrylics I have generally had to prime -- or at least shoot a coat of enamel as a base coat.

Paint the PE fret when you are painting the model.

Paint first, then apply the PE.   Else it is a real bear to mask the PE and/or decks to paint it afterward.   Hand paint any nicks and cracks in the paint on the PE after assembly.

Work in shorter lengths, 2 to 3 inches at most.  Rsist the urge to do the whole side of the ship just because you have a piece of brass that long.  Measure between logical end points,  previous rail runs, gun tubs, bulkheads, etc.  Measure twice, cut once.   Make your bends off the model. 

I recommend a white glue, such as Aleene's Tacky Glue from the craft store to tack the PE in place.   It grabs the part and holds it, yet allows time to reposition it.  It also cleans up in water - for when you have totally messed up and need to start over.   Put a pin-point sized drop at each end of the railing and every 1/2 inch of the length.  Once the white glue is dry go back and run a fine bead of CA along the gutter rail.

My final recommendation is, starting with a 1:700 scale battleship is the wrong way to begin.   It is a big project with a lot of small parts. Frustration will set in and you will not complete the project.  You do not learn and develop the confidence to proceed.  The project gets shelved and sold at the next flea market.  I would recommend a learner kit that you feel that you can afford to make mistakes [and you will] on.  I recommend the Tamiya 1:350 Fletcher or the Trumpeter 1:350 USS England.   These kits are less expensive and the PE is also reasonably priced.   The parts are larger and easier to learn to manipulate.  There are fewer of them.  Once you complete such a learner kit you will have the confidence to transfer the knowledge you have gained to another scale. 

 

Ed,

Do you use a thin CA, gap filling, or something in between?

Dave

Gerarddm wrote:

I am stunned into inactivity by the beautiful GMM 1/700 PE set for Yamato/Musashi. OMG, I wish I had tackled this 20 years ago; these middle aged eyes and hands may not be up to this.  Questions: Do I need to primer these parts with something different than the kit itself? Should I attach the parts, THEN paint? Is CA the only thing to use to attach? Other suggestions? I just cannot believe how beautifully delicate this PE fret is, wow. Scary.

In addition to the advice from Ed I would suggest that if you are using acrylic paints that you wash your PE fret in some white vinegar and then rinse thoroughly in water before painting. It seems to help the acrylics grip the brass. As to your choice of superglue I like to use the thicker gap filling glue as I can't seem to make the really thin stuff work for me. The Aileens white glue is really a life saver.... I built a 1/350 Spruance using the Aileens only on the PE about 5 years ago and the stuff has stayed perfectly stuck even through two moves! WS

weebles wrote:

Ed, Do you use a thin CA, gap filling, or something in between? Dave

I use thin CA [Extreme Power brand from HobbyLobby, with the pink cap].

And to follow up on Dreadnaught's post about vinegar.   In order for the weak acetic acid in vinegar to etch the brass and provide a 'tooth' for the acrylic paint to adhere well, you may need to leave the brass in a bath of vinegar for several hours to overnight.  Rinse well and allow to air dry (using a cloth or paper towel may transfer fibers which will show up in the paint).

 

Those are some great tips guys.  I've had the same experience as Dreadnaught with thin CA.  My only success has been when the PE has been held in place.  So tacking it down with the white glue may just be the ticket. 

Ed, when backfilling with the CA I have a couple of questions for you....

1.  What type of applicator do you use?  Do you apply with a needle point or do you use plastic tubing applicators?

2.  Do you generally wash off the white glue after the CA has been applied?

Looks like I'm going to make a run to the Hobby Lobby at lunch today.  Gag.

Dave 

All of my PE frets get a vinegar bath before use, I just pour some in a shallow plate, make sure the fret is fully submerged and then leave it for the afternoon. I like using vinegar because I can leave it inside, on an out of the way shelf the cat hasn't figured out how to jump up on yet. Rinse with generous amounts of water and allow to air dry completely.

Where the PE is going dictates what type of applicator I use, since I prefer the thicker CA glues that give you at least 30 seconds of wiggle room.  For small parts like hose racks, I use a piece of 24-gauge wire because you can bend it to snake into tight spots. For railings, I prefer to put a small (very small) bead of CA along the bottom of each segment with a straight pin, then place it and nudge with a toothpick to the final location.

You can clean up a staight pin by wiping it off immediately after applying the glue, and snip off the end of the wire when the blob of dried glue gets too big. I've never used the applicators they sell in the hobby shops because, quite honestly, for 1/700 scale they are just too big.

 

weebles wrote:

Ed, when backfilling with the CA I have a couple of questions for you.... 1.  What type of applicator do you use?  Do you apply with a needle point or do you use plastic tubing applicators? 2.  Do you generally wash off the white glue after the CA has been applied?

1)  I use a needle,  but I have also seen an excellent job done with custom-made applicator tips drawn from Telfon R/C aircraft control rod tubing.   IMO many of the applicator tips sold commercially are still too large.

2)  It is not necessary to wash off the white glue.   That is one of the benefits of just using a few pin-point sized dots.   Not a lot of build up -- not a lot of mess.  The white glue shrinks as it dries and is really not noticable once a final flat coat is oversprayed.

Don't think I can help much as I have the same problem with photo-etch in this small scale (1/350 and 1/400 is bad enough). I'm currently building HMS Belfast in 1/600 and decided to order some WEM photo-etch railings and ladders for it along with the other larger-scale items I ordered from them, as they seemed so cheap (about £1.50 a set). I have just about managed to add the ladders and the railings along the main deck, but have given up on adding anything more; I think I'll stick to building 1/600 and 1/700 kits "out of the box"!

The main problem I had was getting the railings to follow the line of the deck whilst simultaneously keeping them straight so that they sit on the deck properly (the etched parts are so thin and fine that it's very hard to bend them to shape without slightly distorting them vertically). Smaller PE details like ladders, radars and AA guns aren't so bad, but it's the railings which add most to the appearance of the finished model!

since vinegar is a very mild acid, when you wash your pe in it, you are microscopicly (sp) etching the surface of the fret.  Which is the equivelant of sanding the fret.  Years ago when I worked for a company that operated sprayers and air tankers, we had problems w/paint peeling from NMF surfaces (especially from the leading edges and the areas behind the props).  Since the FAA has some very strong feelings about using sandpaper on Alcad (except for corrosion removal), we started spraying vinegar on the bare aluminum surfaces we were going to paint, let it set for a few minutes, then rinsed it off with fresh water.  When it dried, we masked and painted.  After we started using the process, we had very few problems with the paint peeling.

I picked up some of the tacky glue at Hobby Lobby today and tried it out on some very delicate toe railing for the PT I'm working on.  It has a nice sweeping curve and has to stand on edge.  I figured this was as good a test as anything.  It worked just great.  Patience is right though.  I found that I could only work on an inch at a time, let it dry, then do another inch.  I used Tamiya tape to hold it in place which was much better than trying to hold it down with my fingers.  I went back in and laid in some CA to lock it down.

I'm thinking about picking up the Trumpeter Jeremiah O'Brien in 1/350 and using the Gold Medal Models set.  It looks like it would be a nice project (Basically one color above the water line) and relatively straight forward on the delicate railings.  If you think I'm nuts let me know.

Dave