1/700 hull numbers

Attack transports hold a slightly special significance in my family.  My father served on board one of them (the Bollinger, APA-234) during the war, and when I was younger (much younger) I built the old Revell and Renwall kits more times than I can count.

If you take a careful look at photos I think you'll find that, when the ships were painted in wartime colors, the "PA" and the hull number were the same size (i.e., mighty small).  Many photos date from the post-1945 period, when the hull numbers were painted much larger (and "shaded" with black).  In that scheme the "PA" was indeed smaller.  If I were building a model of an attack transport in WWII configuration, I'd make all the letters and numbers the same size unless I had a specific reason to do otherwise.

Gold Medal Models has a decal sheet with small hull numbers on it - but I don't think that sheet contains any letters.  If you've got a decent hobby shop within driving distance (in which case you're an extremely lucky person), you might check through its aircraft and railroad decal assortment.

I'll take the liberty of offering one other observation regarding APA color schemes.  (I've made this point on the Forum a couple of times already; those who've already read it - stop reading now.)  One of the things that stuck in my father's memory was the constant routine of painting the ship.  ("If it moves - salute it.  If it doesn't move - paint it.")  Largely as a means of keeping the hands busy, virtually all the exterior and interior sufaces of the ship were constantly getting scraped, primed, and repainted.  Apparently the standard Navy primer during the mid-war years was zinc-based, and a sickly shade of yellow.  (As I understand it the peacetime primer was red lead, but wartime lead shortages led to the use of the zinc stuff.  I may be wrong about that, though.)  The standard drill was to scrape the paint off an area of bulkhead, deck, or whatever (using metal scrapers that made a noise that drove everybody in the vicinity crazy), then apply a coat of primer, let it dry, and apply two coats of the finish color (in the Bollinger's case, haze grey or deck blue.  Dad described how "some of our great geniuses" tried to save themselves some time by mixing the grey and the primer together, thereby producing a particularly nauseous shade of green.  The chief threw it overboard).  The work parties worked on areas that might range in size from a touchup spot the size of a man's hand to several square feet.  At any given moment numerous small sections of the ship would be scraped bare, and others, where the primer had just been applied, would be yellow.  The only part of the ship that didn't get such treatment was the exterior of the hull itself, which was off-limits when the ship was under way.

One time I built a version of the old Revell kit with "PA-234" on it, mounted it on a nice walnut base, and gave it to Dad for Christmas.  That was about thirty years ago, but I still remember the look on his face when he put on his bifocals and saw the tiny spots of yellow, where the primer hadn't yet been covered by the finish coat.  I've used that trick on a couple of other models, and it always gets grins of recognition from Navy WWII vets.  The key to success is to keep it subtle using a dull, pale yellow in irregular-shaped spots that the observer only sees on really close inspection.

Good luck.

Thanks for the great information and ideas.  I'm modeling the USS Geneva.  The only photos I have of her other than what came with the kit are the following.  Any thoughts on what color this was painted?  It's a mess whatever it is.  Should be a challenge to paint. 

I spoke with my wife's uncle who was an LCVP driver.  He only remembers the whole ship being painted the same color and that it was gray.  Is Haze Gray dark enough?  There's a hint of camoflauge but that may just be weather. 

I'm also trying to figure out if these boats had anti fouling red on their bottoms.  I'm having a hard time imagining that in 1/700 scale.  I've seen them modeled both ways.  My guess is no red on the bottoms.  Thoughts?

Thanks again!

Dave

Photo of my fathers ship from the USNHC,  the USS Oberon (AK-56/AKA-14).  Note the same-sized letters and numerals.  Model railroad number decals should work for you here.  She is painted in Measure 12R.   The hull is Navy Blue (5-N) splotches on Ocean Gray (5-O).  The upperworks are 5-O splothes on Haze Gray (5-H).    Because she was a cargo ship she also has a very broad boot stripe (Black). Although not shown well here, other photos I have show that the boat's bottoms WERE NOT painted antifouling red or black.   The boats were painted to match the camouflage for their assigned davit position.  You can see one of her boats in dapple just forward of the forward goal post/aft of the hull break.

The photos which you provided show the Geneva in Measure 21,  most likely overall Navy Blue (5-N).   It is possible that she was painted into one of the late-war neutral gray substitutes for the blues.   You will need to do some additional research as to her assigned TRANSDIV and their painting orders.    Painting a monotone ship is rather simple, although I would suggest that you apply some highlights by some judicious drybrushing with a lighter hue of your base color to help break up the solid dark color mass.

Ouch.  This is a completely different ship than the APAs I'm used to thinking about.  She has two stacks.  My dad's ship was a Haskell-class one, with a single stack.  You're lucky you found a kit (resin, I assume?)

It looks to me like she's just recently had her peacetime-style hull number painted on.  It seems to be in bright, fresh white paint - and the "PA" obviously is a lot smaller than the "86."  Dad had an amusing anecdote about postwar repainting.  The Bollinger had a captain who, as one of the few regular (as opposed to reserve) officers on board, was an absolute stickler for regulations.  Dad, who was an ex-enlisted reservist (he'd been in the Seabees), had gotten chewed out several times for doing manual labor-type jobs that were supposed to be done by enlisted men.  A few days after VJ Day the ship was tied up at a pier with two other APAs alongside.  A radio message came through, ordering all ships to paint their names on their sterns immediately.  The captain let it be known in no uncertain terms that the Bollinger was to get her name on her stern before the other two ships did.  The problem was that the only person who could paint the lettering adequately was Dad, who had worked in the Ohio Dept. of Highways before the war painting road signs.  He knew the captain wouldn't approve of a Lieutenant (j.g.) doing such a thing, but there seemed to be no other solution.  So Dad set up a work party and had himself, his brushes, and a can of paint lowered very quietly over the stern in a bosun's chair.  He was still working on the "B" when he heard the sound of a chugging engine directly below him.  He looked down to discover the captain's gig chugging past - with the captain, in the sternsheets, looking directly at Dad in his bosun's chair.  The captain never said a word about the incident - and the Bollinger beat the other two ships in getting her name on her stern.

In my modern American military history course I make the students go out with their tape recorders and do oral history interviews with military veterans.  (World War II vets, last time I heard, were dying at the rate of about 1500 per day.)  One of the biggest regrets I have is that I never got Dad and his navy experiences down on tape - and now it's too late. 

It looks to me like the Geneva is painted in the overall navy blue scheme.  (Later edit:  I agree with Mr. Grune; it looks like he and I were typing at the same time.)  She's obviously seen quite a bit of wear and tear; it looks like a considerable amount of the blue has worn off to reveal a lighter color (maybe haze grey?) underneath. And I'll bet some of the spots on the superstructure and other parts are yellow primer.

So far as I know, LCVPs were painted the same color as the part of the ship where they were stowed (in this case sea blue) overall.  I don't think anybody bothered with anti-fouling paint on them.  The waterline of an LCVP would be difficult to establish - and the boats spent the vast majority of their time out of the water in any case.

Good luck.  I'm sure your wife's uncle will be thrilled with the finished product.  I've got one other suggestion:  pay him a visit and take your tape recorder with you.

Thanks for the information.  I've spent years talking with my wife's uncle about the Higgins boats.  But not much about the USS Geneva.  He doesn't have a lot of memories about the ship itself and frankly his memory is going down hill quickly which is hard to watch.  I'll see if he has any recollection about the color but I suspect he wont.  Great idea about recording his memories though.  I'm going to suggest it to his son. 

The kit I found is from Loose Canon Productions.  I was amazed to come across it.  It's a very nice little resin kit and I was fortunate enough to run into the maker at my local hobby shop.  It's going to be nice to have him close by as this is my first time with a subject this small and I suspect I'm going to need some help. 

Great lead on the railroad letters.  I'll look into that.  I'm going to drop another post on rigging.  I'd like to do it and it's probably my major concern with this kit.

Dave

I thought that was one of the Loose Cannon kits from your description - good buy, you can't hardly go wrong, and Dave and Hugh are two good guys who are not only modelers, but dedicated to bringing us something other than yet another battleship or aircraft carrier. They saved my butt by making the only 1/700 Victory ship kit around, when I got bitten by the modeling bug after 30+ years and wanted to build my Dad's ship from WWII.

Yes, the small size is intimidating at first - take your time, and take things one step and a time, and before you know it, it will look like a ship. And for your first time out, there's really no need to use ALL of that photo etch. That takes practice as well.

Fortunately I'm no stranger to photo etch so I'm not going to be a complete dolt.  But even this stuff is smaller than I'm used to.  Hugh's club is meeting on Saturday and the subject is photo etch.  Very timely.  I hope to pick up some good tips during the meeting.

Dave

Thanks for the lead!  I can get a PA out of that.  I wonder if it's small enough???

Dave

weebles - don't borrow trouble. If it looks good to you, then go with it. Remember, you're building a model, not a working representation. Sure, we all try for accuracy to the degree we can, but if you get too wrapped up in the niggly little details, all the joy gets sucked out of the hobby.

Case in point - I decided, rather late in the build, that I wanted to add a barrage balloon to the Liberty ship I'm working on. Some research and lots of help from Chris Friedenbach of the Jeremiah O'Brien's crew brought out that the balloon was probably streamed from one of the booms on the No. 3 kingpost, and reeled up and down though a pulley arrangement linked to a cargo winche at No. 5 hatch. But ...

• The display case I have for this model isn't tall enough to have the balloon floating off the stern of the vessel from the end of a cargo boom, unless it was trailing straight back, which would look ridiculous;
• The gauge of wire I decided on - and had already glued in place - could hold the balloon up, but not at a horizontal angle.

So I compromised, added a hawser reel to the stern and drilled a hole in the deck at the base of it to feed the wire into. I get a balloon, it looks fairly "natural," and who besides me is going to know that's not 100 percent accurate?

I take your point and I've promised myself not to get wrapped up in the ridiculous.  This is after all 1/700 scale. 

Here's what I'm considering though.  Imagine a fairly long base with plexiglass cover.  On the right side is the USS Geneva in 1/700 scale in modeled water.  I'm considering extending the boom out with three LCVP's tied up to it.  On the left side of the display suspended by scale cable, in the air, a 1/35 Italeri LCVP with Geneva's numbering (PA86-04 which is my wife's uncle's assigned boat number).  I may throw in a photo of my wife's uncle too. 

Now...  I'm doomed!

Dave 

jgrease wrote:

The Gold Medal Models decal set has the following letters - OE OR AV D R S TF. You get 2 sheets so there are a pair of each. There are 2 different sizes of numbers 0-9 in 4 sets total as well as other warning stripes, bridge windows, WWII era plane markings, and other stripes and such. They are great markings and well worth the price.

and

weebles wrote:

Thanks for the lead!  I can get a PA out of that.  I wonder if it's small enough??? Dave

Except the GMM hull numbers and letters are shaded and are not appropriate for a WWII application.  There are some very small numbers in the center of the sheet - but no letters

Mr. Grune is, of course, right.  Note, however, that we have photographic proof earlier in this thread that this particular ship did in fact operate for a while in her wartime camouflage measure and with postwar-size hull numbers.  The "PA" is smaller than the number, though the numbers don't appear to have the black "shadows."  Careful use of an Xacto knife and a straightedge should let you trim the "shadows" off the decals - or you could paint over them with the hull color.

That may not be the best option; the railroad department may offer a more practical solution. 

I had dinner with my wife's uncle last night and showed him the instructions from the kit.  He started talking about it and floods of memories came back.  Mostly it was the kind of things you would think he would remember such as where they would hang out, procedures for launching boats.  He even remembered that they were painting all the time.  And then some other small things like he recalled such as when they fired off a gun on the fantale all the mirrors in the head directly below shattered and went to the floor.  It was a great conversation.  Then I asked him the color question.  He told me that the boat was gunmetal gray.  Well, we know that's not a navy color but it does tell me that the boat was overall dark gray.  He also confirmed that the boats were painted to match the ship.  This 2 stacker was also a late war design and didn't come out until 1944.  He joined the ship as it came out of the boat yard and they sailed to California to pick up their Higgins boats.

Somewhere he has a stash of photos from the boat.  Apparently somebody on the ship was a shutter bug and took bunches of photos of the ship.  He thinks he still has them so I'm going to see if we can't get a copy of those.

I sent some research off to Archer Fine Transfers for the companion piece I'm building with this APA which is the 1/35 Italeri LCVP.  I'm hoping that they'll put together a sheet with numbers and letters so that I can properly label the boat PA86-4.

Dave