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Cutty sark disaster

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Cutty sark disaster
Posted by lolok on Monday, May 21, 2007 3:17 AM

 bad bad news.... 5am this morning the CUTTY SARK was hit by a disastrous fire..The ship is undergoing a multi-million pound restoration to return her to her original as possible appearance.

            Just hope the damage is not as bad as it looks Boohoo [BH]

Jim Ryan Ex-Pat Limey in warsaw.Poland. " MENE,MENE,TEKEL U PHARSIN"
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Posted by Grem56 on Monday, May 21, 2007 8:09 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/6675381.stm

Read it and weep.(Oops, link was already posted I now see).

Julian

 

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Posted by scottrc on Monday, May 21, 2007 9:37 AM

Fortunatly, the ship was already gutted for restoration and the fire vented outward.  By looking at teh latest photos, much of the damage is done to the surface timbers and much of the hull is still in tact.

It could have been much worse if this fire was started when the ship was fully fitted out.

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Posted by Gerarddm on Monday, May 21, 2007 9:55 AM
Omigod, what a horrible way for me to wake up this AM. The photo on the front page of the NY Times web site just made me sick. Terrible, terrible,terrible.
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Posted by jtilley on Monday, May 21, 2007 11:43 AM
It's hard to think of anything to say about such a tragedy.  It seems, at least, that nobody was killed or injured.  And apparently many of the ship's major components had already been removed and were literally miles away when the fire broke out.  So things could have been worse.  But what a terrible tragedy for all ship lovers.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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Posted by mikepowers on Monday, May 21, 2007 12:02 PM

I know this has to be disturbing for you jtilley.

You have been answering every question about the CS since I have been on this site.

I feel sick.

Mike

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Posted by Shipwreck on Monday, May 21, 2007 12:54 PM
Shalom List Members,

If you love the Cutty Sark, it is time to pull out your credit cards or checkbook. And it is promised that she will be better than ever.

And you may want to follow this event on http://news.bbc.co.uk/

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Posted by skypirate1 on Monday, May 21, 2007 3:15 PM

I could not believe what i was seeing on the news today, absolutely gutted. I was planning on finaly taking a trip to see her this summer with the kids. Lived in London all my life and never got round to going. Atleast those that did see her can say they saw her in all her original splendor and glory.

Andy

While the rest of the crew may be in the same predicament, it's almost always the pilot's job to arrive at the crash site first.
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  • From: Barrow in Furness, Cumbria, UK.
Posted by davros on Monday, May 21, 2007 3:30 PM
I just hope the heat of the fire didn't warp or damage the wrought iron frame of the ship. If it hasn't; that should make it easier to rebuild.
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Posted by kapudan_emir_effendi on Monday, May 21, 2007 6:33 PM
When I first read the news, something is broken inside me Boohoo [BH] For my part, I refuse to yield to the force of nature ! I will do anything to help the old lady and I start just now by donating !
Don't surrender the ship !
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  • From: london, england
Posted by CANDYFLIP on Monday, May 21, 2007 6:39 PM

She's a national treasure, and as i live less than 20 min's from her, and have done all my life it's sad, took a walk down today, asked about and was told that the iron frame is not badly damage, and most of the ship is at chatham dockyards being restored! so it looks like she can be put right.

ian.

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Posted by Chuck Fan on Monday, May 21, 2007 8:02 PM

Revell's Cutty Sark is the first sailing shop model I ever built.   In my opinion she is still the most beautiful ship of any kind to ever have sailed the high seas.    I had a chance to visit her last September, before she was derigged for the present restroation.   Perhaps there is a silver lining in the dark smoke.   It was said that Cutty Sark's structure was in such poor shape that she was in danger of collapsing under her own weight right inside the dry dock.   Perhaps the fire damage would afford her a chance at full restoration, and not just a cosmetic makeover has having blighted so many historic ships around the world.  

The objective of the restoration should not be to make her fit to sail again! 

 

PS, I hope the Victory has more sprinkers and fire alarms than the Cutty Sark.

 

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Posted by Wilbur Wright on Monday, May 21, 2007 8:33 PM
Horrible news.........the bright side is the fittings were removed and the Trust has millions of pounds to go forward, and probably more coming from the government because of this.
MJH
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Posted by MJH on Monday, May 21, 2007 8:44 PM
There is a temptation to say, as people often do at such times, that we're lucky it wasn't worse.  In my view, if we were "lucky", it wouldn't have happened at all!

I can't look at the photos of the damage - perhaps later.  I was just so horrified when I heard the news on Sunday evening, especially as I didn't know CS had been partially dismantled for the restoration work - had she been complete I'm sure it would indeed have been a lot worse. 

The most disturbing aspect to it all is the possibility the fire was a deliberate act of vandalism; the thinking (or lack of it) behind such an act defies logic.

I, too, hope Victory is better protected.  Fire is perhaps the only greater threat to these vessels than bureaucracy.....

Michael 

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Posted by jayman1 on Monday, May 21, 2007 9:03 PM

The Cutty Sark is a national treasure of Great Britan. But it is more than that. In a sense, Great Britain is the caretaker of this vessel for the rest of the world.

 I watched the news broadcasts like everyone else. I do not see how the iron frames could have gone through this fire with no compromise of the structural strength of the members.

Probably the biggest factor to the survival of the vessel is the insurance (or lack thereof) on the vessel. Such insurance is generally available. However, the uniqueness of the vessel  would dampen the appetite of a number of insurers. On the other hand, at least one or more Lloyd's syndicates could - or should - be pursuaded (or shamed) into offering coverage. Time will tell.

 Assume that the restoration is fully funded. (Translated-fully funded means someone is willing to pay for it.) I would not be surprised if the restoration would take 5 to 10 years. And, if it is not funded (paid for), then we have seen the last of  one of the most beautiful sailing ships ever it grace the seas.

No matter, it is not good. I saw the pictures. I saw the talking head  saying that the damage was mostly superficial. Sorry, I'm not seeing what your saying.

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Posted by jtilley on Monday, May 21, 2007 10:43 PM

I haven't seen any of the TV coverage, but I've logged onto several websites that have pictures of the damage.  There's nothing good to be said about this situation, but I'm not quite as pessimistic as Jayman.  Apparently at least fifty percent of the ship's fabric had already been removed - including the main deck planking (though one overhead photo seems to show the forecastle deck - which appears to be more-or-less intact).  In the photos I've seen, the iron frames and deck beams don't seem to be obviously distorted - but, as Jayman points out, their structural integrity may have been adversely affected even if they aren't visibly bent.  (On the other hand, since the ship is permanently drydocked those members will never have to withstand all the stresses that similar components of an operating sailing vessel would.) 

As I understand it, the current restoration project was expected to take about four years.  The administrators, who are trying mightily to put a bold face on the situation, seem to think this tragedy won't add a great deal to that period.  But I won't be surprised if the whole job does indeed take ten years.  Such things tend to get more complicated, and time consuming, as they're investigated more thoroughly.

I've wondered about the insurance situation too.  I have no idea how such things work, but as I understand it the ship is owned by a private trust, rather than the government.  I do hope there is a good insurance policy - but it's not unknown for such institutions to operate without insurance.  The ship's website is seeking donations.  Maybe the vast publicity this tragedy is getting will cause ship lovers all over the world to open their pocketbooks.  I certainly hope so.

I do wonder about the sprinkler system.  I had the impression that she had a pretty sophisticated one.  (I think I remember looking at the sprinkler heads the last time I visited her - which admittedly was about ten years ago, and my memory for such things is hardly reliable.)  I wonder if the feed lines for the sprinklers had been temporarily disconnected as part of the restoration project.

One point that doesn't seem to be getting much attention yet.  I gather there's some suspicion of arson.  I don't suggest that this question deserves as much attention as the fate of the ship does - but what kind of warped individual would do such a thing?

I'm fairly confident that the good people in charge of this project will, eventually, restore the ship to the point where she looks as good as ever.  But she'll never be quite the same.  The Cutty Sark was unusual in that, during the period when I've been visiting her (I first saw her in 1978), almost all of her fabric has been original.  I watched the teak main deck planking getting replaced with a cheaper, Asian substitute back in '78, and I know many of the spars had been replaced long before that.  And in '97 some workmen were replacing some individual hull planks, largely because water had seeped in where the iron bulwark plating joined the wood planks.  And of course the Muntz metal hull sheathing isn't original.  But when you stood in her hold you were, to all intents and purposes, surrounded by the same ship that sailed to China and Australia.  (Such ships as the Constitution and the Victory, by contrast, have been restored so many times, and so much of their original fabric has been replaced, that they are, in many major respects, reconstructions of the original artifacts.)  There's no doubt whatever that the current major restoration of the Cutty Sark was absolutely necessary to the old lady's survival - and I guess a certain percentage of her components would have had to be sacrificed even if the fire hadn't happened.  But what a disgusting, tragic development this is.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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Posted by gjek on Monday, May 21, 2007 11:38 PM
You know things are bad when your wife hunts you down to tell the bad news about a ship. I to was shocked by the news of the fire. The burned timber and wood is replaceable if you can find the quality materials. I worry about the iron and metal. Fire softens the metal and drastically increases issues with oxidation. I don't know if the "restoration" group is prepaired to replace a hull. jtilley mentions the sentimental loss that occurs when parts of the ship have to be replaced. I partly agree with that but I look at it differently. If she had been kept in service until now, how many of her original pieces would still be present? I just hope after she is rebuilt, and I hope she is, that she will last another 100 years.
Msgt USMC Ret M48, M60A1, M1A1
MJH
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Posted by MJH on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 12:01 AM

That last comment is of course true, sort of a 'Grandfather's Axe' situation - two new heads and three new handles....

Nonetheless, for the various original parts to have lasted this long only to be reduced to ash at the whim of some irresponsible young prat is akin to the Taliban's destruction of the Buddhas, a loss to us all. 

<>I would hope that local businesses which profit from the tourist trade attracted by CS would dig deep also, after all it's in their own interests.

Sadly I can't see much help forthcoming from the government - the record of British governments (of both stripes) in the area of preservation, whether it be ships, buildings, railway engines, aircraft or whatever, has been little short of lamentable.  

Michael 

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Posted by kapudan_emir_effendi on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:35 AM
More than anything else, seeing some people commenting as "come on, it's just an old boat" in the BBC website makes me sick. What kind of a society did we become ? Cutty Sark is a technological marvel, a feat of marine engineering that unites old and new. She is the witness of a better world, times of the last great seamen who traveled the seven seas; without those fCensored [censored]g GPS, wireless etc. like junk which distorted and corrupted seamanship to a kind of office work. In this sense, Jayman is quite right, Cutty Sark fairly surpasses being a british national treasure but is an heirloom to all humanity. My mind refuses to believe that the fire was the work of arsonists; what kind of a patological brain can think about vandalising a world culture heritage ?? SoapBox [soapbox] I say again, whatever the cost the old lady must be restored to her former glory and we must do whatever we can to help her .
Don't surrender the ship !
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Posted by shannonman on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:48 AM

If you log on to ,

 www.dailymail.co.uk

go to the news section and you will find pic's of the damage.

 

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Posted by Shipwreck on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 6:00 AM
I have spent a lot of time studying the Cutty Sark over the past year, and continue to do so. I have two Revell Cutty Sarks on my work bench. By now this ship is growing on me. As we bemoan this destruction, we have the promise from the head of the Cutty Sark Society that she will be rebuilt, and will be better than before.

But, in my opinion, such a diaster to a remanant of history pales to the daily disasters that are occurring every day where people can not live in any semblance of peace and security, where people are needlessly killed. Lives will be needlessly snuffed out today, that cannot be restored. Some people have priorities that do not permit them to be concerned about historic relics. If the total destruction of the Cutty Sark were the worst thing to ever happen in this world, we would have much to be thankful for.

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Posted by kustommodeler1 on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 6:27 AM
She's gonna recover. Gotta keep hope. I'm apalled at the thought that someone would torch a national treasure, if it turns out to be arson as has been thought.

Darrin

Setting new standards for painfully slow buildsDead

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  • From: london, england
Posted by CANDYFLIP on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:20 AM

I think the national lottery in this country should folk out most of the money for her, and the government should as well, it surprises me as it's always done that my country that has a wealth of maritime history, will let most of our heritage rot!!!. last year in a news letter which came through the door, it was said a glass roof would be partly put over her to protect the ship once it had be restored.

ian.

`if i should die, think only this of me/that there's some corner of a foreign field/that is for ever england.
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Posted by subfixer on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 8:36 AM
Not that this is very relevant to the subject of the Cutty Sark, but it does remind me of the USS Merrimac that was burned to the waterline and then rebuilt as the CSS Virginia. All is not lost due to the fire, especially since the upper works were spared. I am gladdened to see that there is the intention to repair the damage. I only wonder how long it will take.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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Posted by RedCorvette on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 8:38 AM

 kapudan_emir_effendi wrote:
More than anything else, seeing some people commenting as "come on, it's just an old boat" in the BBC website makes me sick. What kind of a society did we become ? Cutty Sark is a technological marvel, a feat of marine engineering that unites old and new. She is the witness of a better world, times of the last great seamen who traveled the seven seas; without those fCensored [censored]g GPS, wireless etc. like junk which distorted and corrupted seamanship to a kind of office work. In this sense, Jayman is quite right, Cutty Sark fairly surpasses being a british national treasure but is an heirloom to all humanity. My mind refuses to believe that the fire was the work of arsonists; what kind of a patological brain can think about vandalising a world culture heritage ?? SoapBox [soapbox] I say again, whatever the cost the old lady must be restored to her former glory and we must do whatever we can to help her .

I can imagine that there were those who lamented when the "technological marvel" Cutty Sark appeared with her steel and wire components - not like the "good old days" when ships were made entirely of wood...

I also think it's insulting to modern day sailors to refer to their tasks as "office work".  Would you be happier if sailors were still falling to their death from the yardarms on a regular basis? Maybe you ought to catch a couple of episodes of "Deadliest Catch" to see that life at sea is still no picnic, even with computers, radar and GPS.  Life at sea is always going to be challenging and dangerous, no matter how much technology you have in tow.

And for all who are proselytizing about what a treasure the Cutty Sark is, just how many cared enough to call for donations to the restoration fund before the fire?

Don't get me wrong, I'm sorry about the fire also, but stuff happens in life.  It can still be restored, though the fire has no doubt now made that task somewhat more difficult (& expensive).  At least there's a well-organized trust in place working to bring her back.  I get more upset thinking about the fate of the City of Adelaide.

I'd be a lot more impressed if the plans were to put the Cutty Sark back in the water and sail her, rather than just being dressed up as a glorified museum relic.  Kind of like looking at the stuffed bears and lions in a museum instead of going to the zoo (or into the wild) to see some real ones.

My $0.02

Mark

 

 

  

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Posted by sumpter250 on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:44 PM

   The Sea is a dangerous place, and many good ships are lost there, in spite of their crew's efforts. For a great ship, however, there are more dangerous places than the sea. Places where she is out of her element, and at the hands of those who look on her as just another "job", and fail to understand her soul. A shipyard can be one of these places, I have taken enough ships through overhaul to appreciate this, and the fire could easily have been an unfortunate accident. If this fire was deliberately set, she most assuredly should be rebuilt, and taken to sea, where the perpetrator can be properly keelhauled.

   "Just an old boat" indeed! No one who has ever put to sea, could make so callous a remark about any vessel, especially one of the majesty of a clipper. Kind of like calling the Pyramids "an old pile of stones". Those who do not appreciate history, deserve to have none.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

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Posted by RedCorvette on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:35 PM
 sumpter250 wrote:

   If this fire was deliberately set, she most assuredly should be rebuilt, and taken to sea, where the perpetrator can be properly keelhauled.

  

Great idea!  Just have to let the barnacles build up for a while first...;)

 

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Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:36 AM

I think several points that have been brought up in this thread are worthy of some discussion.

It is, of course, hard to argue with Shipwreck's and RedCorvette's observations that, in the grand scheme of things, what's happened to the Cutty Sark is a relatively minor event.  I can easily understand why, for instance, somebody who lost a family member in Iraq that day doesn't think a fire on board an 1869 clipper ship was a matter of much importance.  Thank heaven nobody was killed or injured in the fire. 

In the field of artifact preservation (which is, in essence, what we're talking about here) the distinction between a genuine artifact and a reproduction is more than sentimental.  The artifact itself is a representative of the time and circumstances in which it was made, and of the people who made it.  Replicas have their uses - invaluable uses in some cases - but they just aren't the same as the real thing.  And when an artifact (e.g., Grampa's hatchet, which has had two new handles and three new head since he carried it at the Battle of Lexington) undergoes restoration and conservation, it's almost inevitable that the people restoring it will inject something of their own time and circumstances into it. 

An excellent example is H.M.S. Victory.  The planking on her hull doesn't look much like it did in 1805.  The species of wood is different (I think; maybe I'm wrong about that).  The method of fitting the planks together is different.  (The old "anchor stock" pattern is nowhere to be seen, and the modern shipwrights apparently didn't use traditional caulking methods.)  The wales, which originally were huge timbers fastened directly to the frames, are now thin layers of timber fastened to the outside of the planking.  The lower masts are steel tubes, supported by steel rods that penetrate the hull bottom and are embedded in the concrete of the drydock.  The list goes on and on.  The Victory is a priceless artifact, and the various deviations from her 1805 configuration were made for perfectly legitimate - indeed, in many cases, unavoidable - reasons.  (The expenses of materials and labor really make an absolutely accurate reproduction of a ship like that impracticable.)  I intend no criticism of the people responsible; they've done an outstanding, conscientious job within the parameters that reality has imposed on them. 

But the Cutty Sark, until recently, was, with some obvious exceptions (e.g., the airports that were added to the 'tween deck spaces by the Portuguese), the "real" Cutty Sark.  I gather some criticism of the people who maintained her over the years has been offered recently, but generally speaking I think they did a fine job.  The original hull planking, for the most part, lasted almost 120 years.  That's about as long as can reasonably be expected.

It was inevitable that, if the ship was not to fall apart, much of her fabric was going to require replacement eventually.  As I understand it, the present restoration project was scheduled to replace many major components of her - even before the fire.  That was regrettable, but it was bound to happen eventually.  How much additional replication of original parts will be required because of the tragedy remains to be seen.  I have the impression, though, that the people responsible for the research and restoration know precisely what they're doing; I'm confident that the Cutty Sark that eventually goes back on public exhibition will be as "accurate" as scholarship and technology will permit - tempered, undoubtedly, by the realities of money.

As I understand it, the possibility of floating her and sending her to sea again was considered early in the restoration planning - and rejected, for good reason.  Experience has established that floating an historic ship, especially in salt water, is one of the worst ways to preserve it.  The hull tends to hog, leaks inevitably develop over time, and all sorts of corrosion and other processes take place faster than they would if the ship was on dry land.  (A couple of weeks ago I had a conversation with two of the curators of the U.S.S. North Carolina.  She appears to be afloat, but in fact sits in the mud across from downtown Wilmington.  She's old enough now that leakage and various sorts of corrosion are becoming significant problems.  I don't know what, if anything, will be done about them; the possibility of hauling her into a permanent drydock seems remote.) 

Furthermore, to send an old ship out to sea in this day and age requires all sorts of compromises in order to comply with the law.  The Coast Guard (or its foreign equivalent) requires that such a ship carry numerous devices related to safety and navigation.  (Imagine the Cutty Sark with a radar screen at her main masthead and a couple of diesel-powered lifeboats hanging from her davits.)  The requirements get stricter if the ship is going to carry passengers.  And some further compromises with authenticity are almost unavoidable in the name of good sense, even if the law doesn't mandate them.  (The first Pride of Baltimore might well still be around if she'd had modern hull compartmentation.  Do we really want that for the Cutty Sark?)  And operating a ship on the high seas inevitably involves a certain amount of risk.  It seems like we hear about vintage, flying historic aircraft crashing every few months.  (Remember when the RAF's Meteor and Vampire ran into each other?)  I personally do not want to read that the Cutty Sark or the Charles W. Morgan has gotten sunk, like the first Pride of Baltimore

My spine tingles as much as anybody else's at the sight of a great sailing ship under sail.  But I share the feelings of Captain Tyrone Martin, former commanding officer of, and reigning expert on, the U.S.S. Constitution.  When she got under way under sail for a few miles some years ago, he expressed decidedly mixed reactions - and urged the Navy not to sail her on a regular basis.  I believe the phrase he used was:  "The old lady isn't ready for rollerblades."  Neither is the Cutty Sark - and she never will be.

Some people in the historic ship community don't believe in full-size replicas.  Those people argue that the pool of money for such projects is severely limited, and that the available funds ought to be spent on preserving the real things.  My personal opinion is that ship replicas, if they're well-researched and well-built, serve some very worthwhile purposes.  I don't think the Cutty Sark, or the Constitution, or the Morgan, or any of a couple of dozen other historic vessels, should ever go to sea again.  They're priceless, irreplaceable artifacts, and they deserve to be restored as accurately as possible to their historic configurations - and exhibited to the public in the most stable environments possible.  But I also greatly enjoy going on board, and watching, well-done replicas like the three Jamestown ships, the Mayflower II, the Elizabeth II, the new Endeavour, and the Batavia.  They offer their own forms of education: the guys who've sailed the Susan Constant know a great deal more about seventeenth-century seamanship than could ever be learned from contemporary documents, and the reconstructed Greek trireme Olympias has generated a major scholarly rethinking of galley warfare.  And they provide modern ship lovers with at least a glimpse of what the old ladies must have looked like.  If somebody wants to build a replica of the Flying Cloud, and can fund the project without taking money away from any historic ship preservation projects, he'll have my enthusiastic support.  But please keep the Cutty Sark in drydock.

Sorry to go on so long, but I think this is a pretty important topic.  There's my two cents' worth.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:50 AM
One bit of important good news amid all this:  it seems the repairs due to the fire will in fact be covered by insurance.  Here's a link:  http://www.insurancetimes.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=32&storycode=362765&c=3

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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Posted by Shipwreck on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 12:27 PM
BTW, JTilley, I am sure your 2 cents worth is much appreciated by all. It is worth a mint, thank you.

On the Bench:

Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

Revell 1/48 B-1B Lancer Prep and research

Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet CV-8 Prep and research

 

 

 

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