SEARCH FINESCALE.COM

Enter keywords or a search phrase below:

new book describing details about Isaac Hull Model - Constitution - all sails up and flying

3393 views
7 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    March 2013
new book describing details about Isaac Hull Model - Constitution - all sails up and flying
Posted by Marcus.K. on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 4:41 PM

Hello experts of old ships,

does anyone knows more detailed information concering the Hull-Model?

I was told that the model shows the ship AFTER the battle against HMS Guerriere .. That should be the reason why the bell is missing, spice boxs forward shot away, ships small boats shot in pieces (and therefore gone).. Only the missing steering wheel is not to explain with that interpretation.

Other information I got: the guy on top of the stern should be Capt. Preble? Does anyone knows if that is true?

The two "ladies" left and right of him shall represent "liberty" and "justice"? Can anyone approve the information?

Another thing: does anyone know wether it is true that the model was researched with forensic methods "several years ago". My source says that the investigation proofs a myst is not true .. the hull-modell did never had contact with fire. I did not get any information via internet...

Has anyone an idea how the decks are planked at the hull-model? Are the planks parallel to the ship? Or have they been planked swept along the bulkwards? .. and met in centerline in a herringbone pattern?

I know - very special questions. But I believe here are the best experts concering those questions. ... Looking forward reading from you all

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, May 24, 2007 9:23 PM

I haven't been to Salem for quite a few years.  (My wife and I may get up there this summer, in which case I'll take a good, long look at that model again.)  I have, however, studied the old model fairly closely, if informally, several times, and studied pictures of it.  Take the following with a grain of salt; if somebody who's seen the model more recently contradicts my recollections, that person is almost certainly right.

To my eye, the model gives the distinct impression of having been built by more than one person.  The rigging is extremely well-done, with excellent, scale-looking splicing, seizing, etc.  The rest of the model, for the most part, is downright crude.  The basic shapes are about right - but that's about the best that can be said for it.  The gun carriages, for instance, are crude chunks of wood with no attempt to represent the carriage trucks or any other details.  The gun barrels are extremely simple turnings - maybe made on a simple furniture lathe, but most likely, I think, whittled out of sticks.  They're tapered a little, but have no bands, cascables, or other details.  And each gun is held in position by a great big nail, with its head showing on top of the gun barrel.

The deck furniture is equally primitive.  My theory is that the absence of the steering wheel, bell, and other details is due to the modeler's inability to make them.  (Even on such a large scale, making a double steering wheel is quite a project, and I don't think this guy had either the tools or the skills to do it.)  The decorations on the bow and stern are so crude that it's difficult, if not impossible, to give them any serious interpretation.  And if I remember correctly the modeler made no effort to plank the decks to scale; they consist of wide sheets of wood, even lacking any scratches or grooves to suggest the edges of the deck planks.

I have the impression that, at one time, somebody at the Peabody Museum (as it was then called) took an interest in the model and did some research on it.  Whether that research included "forensic methods" I don't know.  Frankly I doubt it.  I have no trouble believing that the story of the guns being fired is mythical; I certainly didn't see any evidence of such behavior.  And the idea of such tiny wood guns being loaded with gunpowder and fired stretches credulity a bit.  (But then, maybe the original guns were metal....)

The Peabody-Essex Museum is a fine, professionally-run institution.  Somewhere it must have a file of information on that model - though how much information that file contains I have no idea.  (An artifact file in an American museum may contain one or two sheets of paper, or may be several inches thick.)  Nor do I know how easy or difficult it would be to gain access to that information.  The amount of effort that modern museums can put into answering queries about such things varies tremendously from institution to institution - and from time to time.  (When I was working at the Mariners' Museum, our policy was to answer mailed queries as best we could, subject to reasonable time limitations.  Anybody who sent the Mariners' Museum a letter about a model or a painting could figure on getting a letter back from a curator within a couple of weeks, at the most.  And if an individual actually showed up at the museum with a question, we literally dropped what we were doing in order to answer that question as thoroughly as we could.  The MM abandoned that policy a few years after I left.) 

I don't know what the Peabody-Essex Museum's policy about queries from the public is, but, as we've noted in another thread, maritime-related artifacts like that old model don't seem to be getting as much attention as they used to get.  I'll repeat my earlier comment:  the "Hull model" really deserves to be the subject of a published monograph.  But I'm not optimistic that such a book will appear in the near future.

I feel like I should emphasize again:  I haven't actually been in the same room as that model in several years.  If anybody who's seen it more recently has something different to say about it, that individual's observations probably are more valid than mine.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2013
Posted by Marcus.K. on Friday, January 8, 2010 5:20 AM

Hello Gentlement,

some months ago the "captains clerk" informed me about a new book soon to be published in which the author (an norwegian immigrant) did some interesting investigations on the Isaac Hull Model.

The book was published this summer - and I ordered it yesterday (when I accidently found it in internet).

http://books.google.de/books?id=XYUWBpxFZN8C&dq=constitution+-+all+sails+up+and+flying&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=uVUQ4QXhQF&sig=R3wcgxUKplEA4yaf8CWBfoVNwoE&hl=de&ei=DRNHS7baBqSqnQOVqoXsCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Its written by Olof A. Ericsen - a guy who did build his Constitution model in STEEL:

http://www.uniquesystems.com/constitution.php

His - kind of full-bodied - statement "Today I can proclaim with confidence: "The picture shows Old Ironsides as she appeared at 1:00 PM, February 20, 1815." " surprises - although Tyrone Martin assisted as "Supervisor" because - we all know  - there are many details which nobody could really know about precisly.

Nevertheless - did anyone of you know the book? What do you think about it?

  • Member since
    May 2008
Posted by tucchase on Friday, January 8, 2010 11:23 AM

Marcus.K.

Hello Gentlement,

some months ago the "captains clerk" informed me about a new book soon to be published in which the author (an norwegian immigrant) did some interesting investigations on the Isaac Hull Model.

The book was published this summer - and I ordered it yesterday (when I accidently found it in internet).

http://books.google.de/books?id=XYUWBpxFZN8C&dq=constitution+-+all+sails+up+and+flying&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=uVUQ4QXhQF&sig=R3wcgxUKplEA4yaf8CWBfoVNwoE&hl=de&ei=DRNHS7baBqSqnQOVqoXsCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Its written by Olof A. Ericsen - a guy who did build his Constitution model in STEEL:

http://www.uniquesystems.com/constitution.php

His - kind of full-bodied - statement "Today I can proclaim with confidence: "The picture shows Old Ironsides as she appeared at 1:00 PM, February 20, 1815." " surprises - although Tyrone Martin assisted as "Supervisor" because - we all know  - there are many details which nobody could really know about precisly.

Nevertheless - did anyone of you know the book? What do you think about it?

If I remember correctly, I believe this guy had a couple of articles in Scale Ship Modeler about his "Steel" models.  He built a Constitution, and also a Victory.  The detail was incredible!  Every plank was made individually and welded to the model inconspicuously.  And everything on the ships was made of steel, including the rigging, blocks, ratlines, and everything else!  I don't remember how much they weighed.  He had to do a LOT of experimenting to figure a way to weld everything together without one weld warping a previously installed piece.  This book ought to be a treat to read.  Thanks for the link.

Just looked at the second link above.  WOW!!!

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Friday, January 8, 2010 9:53 PM

At the risk of being thought a "dummy" I'm not farmilar with the Term, "Spice Box",  I'll hazard a guess and assume it might be the "heads"?  It certanly would be a mix of "spice". Whistling

 

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, January 8, 2010 10:26 PM

Well, it's certainly a remarkable book - and Mr. Ericsen is a most remarkable modeler.  I do wonder how the entire text of the book (at least I assume that's what it is) happens to be available on the web; is the book available in conventional, printed form or not?  [Later edit:  I see by Marcus's later posts that the version on the web is only a part of the complete book.  The whole thing must be a pretty imposing work - though the price is beyond my reach.]

This is the most thorough and scholarly discussion of the "Hull model" I've seen - though that's not saying much.  I'm delighted that the museum allowed Mr. Ericsen such access to the model; his discoveries (that the gundeck is planked to scale, for instance) are really revelatory.  His theory about the construction of the model (i.e., that some highly-talented crew member of the Constitution  worked on it for a long time prior to the fight with the Guerriere, but that it was finished in a big hurry - and to a lesser standard of detail and craftsmanship by somebody else so it could be presented to the captain at the famous banquet) certainly fits the observable facts.  But that's not the only possible explanation for why the model looks like it does.  It doesn't take much imagination to come up with several other scenarios. 

I agree completely with Mr. Ericsen's assertion that the old story about the miniature guns being "fired" is a myth. 

I share Marcus's reservations about the assertion that Mr. Ericsen's reconstruction is "exactly" what the ship looked like on a particular date.  Marcus is right; there just isn't enough information to justify such an assertion.  On the other hand, I suspect part of the problem has to do with language.  I haven't had time to read the book [or even the portion of it that's on the web] in great detail, but I think what Mr. Ericsen is claiming is that the spars and rigging of his second model are accurate.  I'm not entirely comfortable with that assertion.  If I'm reading the text correctly, his big primary source is the journal of a midshipman who took detailed notes on the ship's rigging quite a few years later.  To assume that her rig hadn't been altered in any way during that period is quite an assumption.  (After all, it only takes a few hours - in some cases only a few minutes - to alter the lead of a line.)   I may be missing something though - or, just as likely, reading something into the text that the author didn't intend.  As Jake hinted, Mr. Ericsen's command of the English language is something less than complete.  (It is, however, considerable superior to my command of any foreign language.) 

Another caveat:  I am not really a Constitution "buff."  I know quite a few such people are out there, and I'll be interested to see what they think of Mr. Ericsen's research.  It looks to me like a subtantial contribution to the literature on the subject - and a source that every Consititution modeler in the future will want to consult.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2013
Posted by Marcus.K. on Saturday, January 9, 2010 12:04 PM

Thank you for your interesting answers.

As soon as I got the book (yes, its as real paperprint available - for example via Amazon - about 80 - 90$, about 380 pages) and got through, I will present it for you, if you are interested. I learned from the Captains Clerk that Ericsen is not very satisfied with the edtion since the prints of his plans (wow !) are not in a quality as he wanted. I´ll show you some photos as soon as possible.

The Google-Book-Search-Version makes many pages readable - but most of the book is not visible. But the shown texts are interesting enough. I like those presentations since it is possible to check wether the authors style is something which makes reading a pleasure - or which is enerving.

Concerning Ericsens main source. As far as I understood what was already presented at google, he used the log of a midshipman - the first available source describing the rigging. He got it by Ty Martin. It was written in 1835 during the rigging was rebuild after the trydock-restauration. Ericsen says that the order by the navy-board was to recreate the rigging of 1812-1815. He also stated that the midshipman did not explain EVERYTHING since most of the common known techniques were not interesting to a reader in those days. So - as far as I understood - he is in a way critical versus this source. But together with the Hull-Model and the standard-books of Darcy for example (Ericsen compares the british and the american rigging-standards as well and disagrees with everyone saying the rigging was british) he believes to have enough sources to recreate most of the old design.

I was courious wether any of you experts did read the book since I mistrust a bit the professionalism and the reliablity of amateurs (although I know that there are many amateurs, which do act much more professionell than many "professionel"). I mean to build a real exiting big and detailed model of a ship does not make a historian! And historical texts do have the one or other .. difficulties. Sometimes words or expressions do not mean the same thing as they do today. Ericsen - a mechanical engineer like me (or something like this) is not educated in historical and scientific thinking and working - therefore I still be careful and do not want to just trust and copy any of his conclusions. Especially in ship building history (if I may say so in my humble english) there were and are many myths, because decades ago a so called "capacity" said "this was like that". One example: the common thinking about the colour of the Wasa - how long did any expert say: she was blue! - and today we know: she was red! ..

By the way: who are Constitution "buffs" here?

  • Member since
    January 2006
Posted by Paul Budzik on Sunday, January 10, 2010 10:59 PM

Well this thread just cost me $100.  Bought the signed copy from the author (off of Amazon).

Paul

Paul

JOIN OUR COMMUNITY!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

SEARCH FORUMS
FREE NEWSLETTER
By signing up you may also receive reader surveys and occasional special offers. We do not sell, rent or trade our email lists. View our Privacy Policy.