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Sandpiper variations

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, June 17, 2007 7:20 PM

I'm not familiar with the Lindberg "Sandpiper," but I have the general impression that it's intended to represent something on the order of a War of 1812 privateer rather than a revenue cutter.

The extant information about American sailing revenue cutters is frustratingly scanty.  So far as I know, the only actual surviving plans are the ones reproduced in Chapelle's books.  It is clear, though, that the Joe Lane was not a member of the Morris class.  The Joe Lane (officially Joseph Lane, but everybody seems to have called her "Joe") was a beautiful ship with extraordinarily sharp lines.  There's a detailed plan of her in the National Archives; Chapelle published a redrawn version of it in his History of American Sailing Ships.  The amount of detail on that plan is quite extraordinary; it shows the paneling of the interior partitions and the locations of the doorknobs on the water closets.  What it doesn't show, for some reason, is any hint whatever of the ship's armament.  It's generally thought that she was armed with some sort of small swivel gun amidships, but there's no indication of any gunports (which, given the amount of detail on the other parts of the drawings, surely would have been shown if they'd been there).  The drawings for the Morris class don't show the guns either, but do make it clear that the ships of that class had shoulder-high bulwarks with gunports cut in them.

We've discussed the old Pyro/Lindberg "Independence War Schooner" in several threads here in the Forum.  In its initial form it was based on an old Model Shipways solid-hull wood kit, which MS sold under the name Roger B. Taney.  In The History of American Sailing Ships, Chapelle listed the Taney as being a member of the Morris class, and the MS kit was based on Chapelle's drawing.  Chapelle later found another drawing in the National Archives with the specific name Roger B. Taney on it.  That drawing, which he published in his later book, The History of the American Sailing Navy, shows a vessel that's similar to the "generic" Morris class plans, but differs in several details.  The Model Shipways kit originally appeared, I think, between the publication of the two Chapelle books, so it didn't take account of the new drawing - and neither did Pyro when it copied the MS kit in plastic.  (The owners of Model Shipways used to refer bitterly to "Pirate Plastics.")  So the Lindberg "Independence War Schooner" actually represents - reasonably accurately, if without much detail - some other member of the Morris class.  Maybe the Morris herself.

Several model companies have offered the Joe Lane in kit form over the years.  She was, in fact, among the tiny "ships in bottles" made by Gowland and Gowland that Revell distributed briefly in the first years of its existence.  Bluejacket currently offers a nice plank-on-frame wood kit under the name Jefferson Davis that's obviously based on the Joe Lane plans.  I'm not sure whether the Davis and the Lane actually were sisterships; I suspect that may be one of the many tidbits of Revenue Marine history that nobody knows for certain. 

Caveat: the best published source on all this stuff is Donald Canney's book on early American revenue cutters, and I don't have a copy of it.  Don Canney is a fine scholar, and his work can safely be regarded as being as close to "definitive" as anybody can get at the present time.  If anything in his book contradicts what I've said, it's safe to assume that he's right.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2004
Posted by Gerarddm on Sunday, June 17, 2007 11:28 AM
If memory serves, the lines of Joe Lane were used in the early 1960s to build the New England coastal schooner Shenandoah, a staggeringly beautiful ship. Those 19th Century naval architects knew their stuff.
Gerard> WA State Current: 1/700 What-If Railgun Battlecruiser 1/700 Admiralty COURAGEOUS battlecruiser
  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by jrb53 on Sunday, June 17, 2007 10:39 AM

Sorry for any confusion.  The thread that was so helpful is located here:

/forums/665084/ShowPost.aspx

The Lindbereg "Sandpiper" is not a MORRIS-class replica.  The confusion results from USCG's  naming methods,i.e., the reuse of Treasury Dept officials names.  The MORRIS (1831) was according to Chappelle (Howard, not Dave, Smile [:)]) a 73 foot, 112 ton cutter built in the New York Navy Yard.  I am assuming that is the vessel modelled as the "War of Independence Schooner" that you have.  The MORRIS (1831) was set aground by a hurricane in Florida in 1846.

The MORRIS (1848) was s sister ship of the JOE LANE (originally CAMPBELL).  This is what jtilley and others feel is the prototype for Lindberg's "Sandpiper".  The scale comparisons are the exact opposite compared to real-life, as the JOE LANE was a larger 100 foot, 153 ton vessel.  The concensus agreed upon was that the "Sandpiper" is 1/144 scale.

So, we have two different kits, with differing scales, of differing ships, of differing weights and lengths, both of which can be modelled as USCG cutters named MORRIS, Smile [:)].  I suppose this is a good reason for USCG modellers to add the vessel's date to their work, as shown by the USCG website,

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/cutterlist.html

I am also curious as to whether Prof Tilley has found any problems or descrepancies in the listings shown by this website?

Again, rcboater, sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

Jack

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Derry, New Hampshire, USA
Posted by rcboater on Saturday, June 16, 2007 8:11 PM

Bob,

I have to admit I'm a little confused by your post-- are you saying  that the Lindberg "Sandpiper" kit is also basically a model of the Morris class Revenue Cutter?

I started the thread about the Lindberg "War of Independence Schooner".  This is not the same kit as the Sandpiper.  The Sandpiper kit is about 13 inches long when complete, while the War of Independence kit is about 18 inches long when completed.

The comments (jtilley, and others)  about Revenue Cutters and the Morris class cutters was in regards to the bigger kit, not the Sandpiper. 

But, I've never seen a Sandpiper kit in person-- is it basically a scaled -down version of the larger kit?   (The larger kit was originally a Pyro kit-- what is the origin of the Sandpiper?)

 

Webmaster, Marine Modelers Club of New England

www.marinemodelers.org

 

  • Member since
    October 2005
Posted by CG Bob on Saturday, June 16, 2007 6:05 PM

The "Sandpebble" was the USS San Pablo.  The book and movie were based on the Richard McKenna's USN experiences in the Far East.  "The Left-Handed Monkey Wrench" is a collection of Richard McKenna's stories and essays, and is also a good read.

  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by jrb53 on Saturday, June 16, 2007 11:15 AM
Nope.  The movie "Sand Pebbles" (starring Steve McQueen) was about US gunboats of the Yangtze River Patrol in China prior to World War II.  Good movie and one that I will definitely pick up if I see it on the $4.99 DVD table at Wallyworld.
  • Member since
    May 2007
  • From: Seattle
Posted by PeeweeBiggs on Saturday, June 16, 2007 10:52 AM
 jrb53 wrote:

I have aquired the Lindberg "Sandpiper" and thoroughly enjoyed the Forum discussions of this model and the JOE LANE (1848) class of cutters.  During my further research I stumbled across the following account and an excellent painting by Gil Cohen (the famous aviation artist) at the Coast Guard website. Note the wonderful detailing of both cannon, the rigging, and the cutlasses hung ready for use. (Is this guy a modeller? Smile [:)])

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/WEBCUTTERS/Morris_1848.html

 It appears that 7 cutters were built: the LAWRENCE in Washington; the INGHAM and the HARRISON at Erie, PA;  and the four sister ships, CRAWFORD, MORRIS, WM. DUANE, and CAMPBELL (renamed JOSEPH LANE in 1855) built on the East Coast.

 I won't waste your time with individual ship accounts, they are all listed at the USCG website.  But please note that three of the vessels were involved in the Civil War.  The MORRIS as described with the drawing, the DUANE which was captured by rebels in Norfolk, and the CRAWFORD which was assigned to Hampton Roads.  (This brings up the fanciful question of whether the DUANE and CRAWFORD ever faced in other!) 

Personally, my limited abilities will prevent me from constructing the necessary deck modifications to accurately portray this class.  However, I will bravely attempt to replace the masts and sails with wood and tissue,,,,,maybe.  But to everyone else, especially you Civil War buffs, enjoy the variations.

Jack

BTW, if "sumpter250" is reading, I would love to see some pics of the 1/87 version (60' schooner) that you completed.

 

Was this ship featured in a movie? Something about a naval vessel in a Chinese river. The name of the movie was Sandpiper or Sandpebble or sand something.

 

Peewee

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  • Member since
    June 2007
Sandpiper variations
Posted by jrb53 on Saturday, June 16, 2007 10:40 AM

I have aquired the Lindberg "Sandpiper" and thoroughly enjoyed the Forum discussions of this model and the JOE LANE (1848) class of cutters.  During my further research I stumbled across the following account and an excellent painting by Gil Cohen (the famous aviation artist) at the Coast Guard website. Note the wonderful detailing of both cannon, the rigging, and the cutlasses hung ready for use. (Is this guy a modeller? Smile [:)])

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/WEBCUTTERS/Morris_1848.html

 It appears that 7 cutters were built: the LAWRENCE in Washington; the INGHAM and the HARRISON at Erie, PA;  and the four sister ships, CRAWFORD, MORRIS, WM. DUANE, and CAMPBELL (renamed JOSEPH LANE in 1855) built on the East Coast.

 I won't waste your time with individual ship accounts, they are all listed at the USCG website.  But please note that three of the vessels were involved in the Civil War.  The MORRIS as described with the drawing, the DUANE which was captured by rebels in Norfolk, and the CRAWFORD which was assigned to Hampton Roads.  (This brings up the fanciful question of whether the DUANE and CRAWFORD ever faced each other!) 

Personally, my limited abilities will prevent me from constructing the necessary deck modifications to accurately portray this class.  However, I will bravely attempt to replace the masts and sails with wood and tissue,,,,,maybe.  But to everyone else, especially you Civil War buffs, enjoy the variations.

Jack

BTW, if "sumpter250" is reading, I would love to see some pics of the 1/87 version (60' schooner) that you completed.

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