Which rigging thread is best? Micro Mark or Model Expo?

I'm afraid my reply to this one isn't going to be very helpful, but here goes.

ModelExpo sells several different kinds of thread, most of which (I think) it buys from European kit manufacturers - and heaven only knows where they get it.  I've bought quite a few spools of the stuff they label "cotton/poly mix."  I rather like the look of it; it has a "lay" that looks pretty much like real rope.  It isn't fuzzy, and it comes in several decent, rope-like colors.  The catalog identifies the manufacturer as "Model Shipways," but the plastic spools have the word "Mamoli" stamped on them.  (If Mamoli is indeed the originator, this is the only Mamoli product I've ever seen that I'd allow in my house.  Mamoli is one of the worst of the notorious HECEPOB manufacturers.)

I've also bought a couple of spools of the very fine, supposedly "waxed" thread that ModelExpo advertises as being for seizings and stuff like that.  It seems to be pretty good stuff - and quite fine in gauge.  The black stuff might be appropriate for some of the standing rigging on a small-scale model.  The beige color is probably too light - and if it is indeed waxed, it must be difficult if not impossible to dye.

Model Expo advertises quite a few other types of line, but I haven't had experience with it.

I've never bought the stuff Micromark offers.  I have done quite a bit of business with that company over the past twenty years or so, and have found its service to be excellent.  But (according to the catalog) the thread in question is cotton, and cotton is generally regarded as a poor rigging material because it reacts extravagantly to changes in humidity.  Furthermore, if I remember correctly it's only offered in two diameters - and even the smaller of the two would be mighty big for a 1/196-scale model.

Experienced sailing ship modelers tend to gravitate toward two rigging materials:  silk and linen.  Some eminently qualified people swear by linen as the most durable material on the planet; I have my doubts about that, but there's no denying that, if you avoid the cheaper, "slubbier" variety, it's nice stuff.  Bluejacket (www.bluejacketinc.com) sells it in a fair variety of sizes.  It's not cheap, and it only comes in two colors:  black and white.  If you buy the white stuff for the running rigging, you'll need to dye it - and if you do go that route, please, please don't use tea or coffee!  (For some extensive rants on that subject, do a search on the word "tea" in this Forum.)  And once again, all the available diameters are pretty big.

Bluejacket also sells some very fine nylon thread.  It's nice and smooth (virtually no fuzz), and comes in a wide range of sizes.  It has a couple of drawbacks:  it's slick, and thus a little tricky to tie in a knot, and it only comes in black and white.  I understand it can be dyed, but I haven't tried it.  Harold Hahn, one of the most famous modelers in the U.S., does all his rigging with nylon; it's tough to argue with the results he gets.

I personally am a fan of silk rigging line.  The last time I did a major rigging project, silk thread was a lot easier to find than it is nowadays; good sewing supply stores carried it in a couple of diameters and a wide variety of colors, and I made up most of my line on a primitive but effective "miniature ropewalk" (made from components of a Lego set).  I've still got a fair supply of the stuff that I bought twenty-five years ago, so I haven't been in the market for it recently; I suspect there may be some good sources for silk thread on the web somewhere, but I don't know what they are.

Your most obvious alternative is the polyester/cotton thread that's sold in sewing stores.  Lots of experienced modelers turn up their noses at it, but I'm not sure why.  There's no shortage of colors, and by shopping around you can find a fair variety of diameters.

Two Golden Rules of ship model rigging:  1. If in doubt as to size, err on the small side.  2. If in doubt as to color, err on the dark side.

I don't know if the above will be of any help, but it's about the best I can do.  Good luck.

jtilley,

Thanks for reply.  Even though I didn't get a direct "Use this company and not that company", you gave me expanded knowledge about rigging line and how to shop.  Your extensive replies are always appreciated

Thanks,

Dave 

The brand of thread I mainy use is Coats and Clark Button and Carpet thread. Wal-mart has it in the sewing section.  The ratlines on my Cutty Sark were hand tied in place and you can get excellant results with that brand.

Jake

Hello Dave,

I don't know how accurately you hope to rig your model but scale sizes of line are of great relevance for a realistic look whatever make of line you use.

The largest item of standing rigging on Victory is the Main Stay at 19" circumference which at 1:196 scale works out at 0.78mm diameter (0.75mm thread is appropriate) All other lines are proportionally smaller. The other major feature of standing rigging are the Lower shrouds at 11" circumference. This equates to  0.45mm at scale. (0.50mm thread could be used.)

However, the modellers eye is the all important tool in rigging, if it looks right it probably is. I have found that adjustments to arithmetic scale both upwards and down are sometimes necessary.

In Europe commercial thread is available in sizes from 0.1mm dia. upwards. (0.1mm equates to a 2.5" circumference line.) Something finer than this would be needed say for the ratlines which have a circumference of 1.5". which is the smallest circumference line on Victory.

Big Jake wrote:

The brand of thread I mainy use is Coats and Clark Button and Carpet thread. Wal-mart has it in the sewing section.  The ratlines on my Cutty Sark were hand tied in place and you can get excellant results with that brand. Jake

Guys,

Thanks a lot for the replies.  I helps a lot!  George W, thanks for the rigging diameter specs and the corresponding thread size.

Fair Winds and Following Seas...

Dave 

jtilley wrote:

I'm afraid my reply to this one isn't going to be very helpful, but here goes. ModelExpo sells several different kinds of thread, most of which (I think) it buys from European kit manufacturers - and heaven only knows where they get it.  I've bought quite a few spools of the stuff they label "cotton/poly mix."  I rather like the look of it; it has a "lay" that looks pretty much like real rope.  It isn't fuzzy, and it comes in several decent, rope-like colors.  The catalog identifies the manufacturer as "Model Shipways," but the plastic spools have the word "Mamoli" stamped on them.  (If Mamoli is indeed the originator, this is the only Mamoli product I've ever seen that I'd allow in my house.  Mamoli is one of the worst of the notorious HECEPOB manufacturers.)

John:

Your reply got me thinking. I dug out a MS Rattlesnake kit I bought a couple of years ago and checked the rigging package. The rigging thread spools are from Mantua in this kit. The rigging thread is actually good nice looking. It has a very laid up look, much better than most of the prewaxed stuff I have in my rigging stash. Its actually quite realistic looking both in the lay of the rope and the color. I'll probably get some more of it to use.  

Russ 

The stuff I was talking about earlier probably is labeled Mantua too.  I confess I tend to get the various HECEPOB companies, whose products I generally detest, mixed up with each other, and that probably isn't entirely fair.  The bottom line is that this particular rigging line seems to be pretty good stuff - at least in terms of appearance.  (I have no idea how long it lasts.) 

djrost - If you really want to get into this topic and find out about the actual sizes of rigging lines on eighteenth-century British warships, the place to start is James Lees's book, The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War.  It contains tables that show how big each line ought to be (at least according to the rules; just how universally they were followed is a matter of some questions).  If this is your first encounter with the subject, though, that might be overkill.  That little Revell Victory is actually a nice kit, but mighty small for a really thorough job of rigging - and making the lines the scale sizes would involve some mighty fine thread.  It's entirely up to you, of course, but you might want to stick with the simplified rigging shown in the instructions.  (Though you might also want to consider replacing those injection-molded "shroud and ratline assemblies" with something a little more prototypical.)

jtilley,

Right now for reference, I have McKay's "100 Gun Ship Victory", and a Stephen Biesty cross-section illustration of the Victory.  The Stephen Biesty book seems more geared for kids, but when compared to pics I see online it seems for the most part accurate.  The McKay book probably has rigging diameter and illustrates which rigging is standing and running.  I'm not expecting to include every single rope, but I should be able to get all of the standing lines and most of the running.  Thanks for the book title and I may pick that up sometime.  I think it may be available at Model Expo.

Thanks,

Dave 

The McKay book is outstanding.  There are two editions of it; the first contained some mistakes that the reviewers pounced on pretty harshly, and Mr. McKay (much to the credit of his publishers as well as himself) fixed them in the second, revised edition.  For the purposes of a model on such a small scale, based on a plastic kit, those mistakes probably won't make any difference in any case.

There's nothing wrong with the Biesty book, either.  It is indeed intended primarily for younger readers, but the material in it is basically sound.

I believe the Lees book, which originated with the Conway Maritime Press in England, is handled in the U.S. by the Naval Institute Press.  I suspect you can find a better price on it through somebody like Amazon or Barnes and Noble.  Used copies are probably knocking around on the web as well.  I strongly recommend that book to anybody who intends to do a number of thoroughly-rigged models of British sailing warships; it contains just about everything modern scholarship has established about the subject.  But if you're only thinking in terms of one, relatively small-scale model, Lees is probably overkill.

I'm not sure whether Mr. McKay includes all the line diameters, but they're probably in there somewhere.  In any case, for a project like this some good photos will probably be just about as useful.  Again - when in doubt, err on the thin side and (with apologies to Darth Vader) the dark side.  Good luck.

jtilley,

Was looking through the McKay book last night and in the back are records of each individual line of rigging, states whether they are standing or running, and lists the circumference of each line!  C= pi x Diameter so it's easy to get the diameter.  Then divide by 196 for the scale, and multiply by 2.54 to get Cm then multiply times 10 to get thread mm.  It really is an outstanding book.  I just wish he included lots of color photos or illustrations of various parts of the ship.  The Biesty book seems for the most part good, but I noticed that in the present Victory in Portsmouth the inside of the gunwhales are yellow ocre while Biesty makes them red like many vessels at the time had (presumably to make blood stains blend in?)  I think I'll make this Victory as she appears at the present time.  

Dave 

That's almost certainly a goof (a minor one) on Mr. Biesty's part.  The practice of painting the interior surfaces of bulwarks and gunwales red was out of fashion by 1805.  The people responsible for the preservation of the Victory have done some pretty high-powered research on her color scheme (among much else); their concusion is that the interior surfaces of the bulwarks were yellow ochre, and that the only red areas that would be visible on a model were the edges of the gunports, the interiors and edges of the gunport lids, and the muzzles of the guns themselves.

There's a good section devoted to the ship's color scheme, and other features of interest to modelers, on the ship's website.  Worth checking out.

The story about red paint being used to camoflage bloodstains has been around for a long time.  Recent scholarship suggests that red-ochre paint (actually a rather dull, dark shade) was used for such purposes mainly because it was a reasonably effective, cheap primer for protecting wood and metal from the weather.  I suspect the hiding of blood stains was seen as a fringe benefit, but that doesn't seem to have been the primary reason for the color scheme.

You got the arithmetic for figuring out the line diameters right.  In practical terms, if you divide the figure in the book by 600 (i.e., 200 [rather than 196] times 3 [rather than 3.1416...], you'll be mighty close.  Work out the scale diameters of just a few of those lines, and you'll see quickly what I was talking about earlier when I referred to small thread sizes.

John McKay actually has illustrated two books about the ship.  The other is H.M.S. Victory:  Construction, Career and Restoration (I fear I may have garbled the title a bit), with text by Alan McGowen.  Some of the drawings in that one duplicate those in the Anatomy of the Ship volume, but others are new - and there are several sections of color plates.  The drawings in that book actually show the ship's rigging in more detail than those in the AOS book.

Another one that you would certainly find useful is the old classic, The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships, by C. Nepean Longridge.  That one contains another fine set of drawings by the late George Campbell.  It also contains verbal descriptions of how virtually all of the major rigging lines lead - extremely useful when working on a model.

Good luck.