Help with frigate selection.

Unfortunately this one has a pretty simple answer.

To my knowledge, the only one of the original six that's ever actually been the subject of a kit, in either plastic or wood, is the Constitution.  Revell, Monogram, and Imai have, at various times, issued their Constitution kits in slightly modified form with the name "United States" on them, but those kits didn't actually represent the United States accurately.  (The big, 1/96 Revell one did make a half-hearted attempt at reproducing the raised quarterdeck and "roundhouse" of the real ship, but that kit was on the market only briefly and is now something of a collector's item.)

At least one of the HECEPOB wood kit companies (HECEPOB = Hideously Expensive Continental European Plank On Bulkhead) has released a kit labeled Constellation, but it's based (more or less - with typical HECEPOB lack of concern for reality) on the 1850's corvette now preserved at Baltimore.  Naval historians - including, nowadays, the people responsible for the preservation of the ship - are almost universally agreed that this vessel is not the 1797 frigate of that name.

The available documentation suggests that the President was extremely similar to the Constitution.  Quite a few modelers have converted Constitution kits into models of the President.  (The big differences between the two ships seem to have amounted to little more than the bow and stern decorations - and since there seems to be no detailed record of what those of the President looked like, you can just about get away with the "conversion" by changing the name on the transom of a Consitution kit.

To my knowledge, the only representation of the Chesapeake in kit form that's ever been released is the tiny (though excellent) cast metal wargamers' version by Skytrex.  (I know that sounds like a bold assertion, and I certainly can't claim to know about every single sailing ship kit that's ever been manufactured.  But I've certainly never heard of another Chesapeake kit.  That the manufacturers would find her an unattractive subject is certainly understandable.)  And I don't think anybody's ever issued a Congress kit.

Currently there are two plastic Constitution kits on the market, both from Revell-Monogram.  The 1/192 one dates from 1956.  At that time it represented the state of the art, and in many ways it holds up pretty well by modern standards.  It's about 18" long, and, with one big exception, represents the ship pretty much as she appeared in 1956.  (The exception is the figurehead.  Revell includes a nice reproduction of the Andrew Jackson figurehead that the ship wore in the 1830s and 1840s.)  Its big weakness, in terms of accuracy, is its representation of the big hatch in the middle of the spar deck.  Instead of an opening looking down into the gundeck, with ladders in the corners, it's a solid piece of plastic.  (The guns on the gundeck are nice little plastic castings sitting on little "shelves" cast integrally with the hull halves.  In 1956 that was mind-boggling detail; the wood kits of that era had "dummy" gun barrels that plugged into holes drilled in the solid hulls.)

The other extant plastic Constitution is the big Revell-Monogram one, which dates from 1965.  It's one of the best plastic sailing ship kits ever produced.  It's also showing its age these days, but it certainly has the potential to be turned into a fine scale model.  On the other hand, gjek says it's too big for his available display space - and I can certainly sympathize.

The late, lamented Japanese company Imai produced, very briefly, a Constitution on, if I remember right, about /150 scale.  That one just might meet gjek's requirements.  Imai kits were generally excellent.   I don't think I've ever actually seen this one personally.  (Imai was only on the scene briefly - at a time when my budget couldn't accommodate kits in that price range.)  As I understand it, it represented the spar deck hatch the same way the little Revell kit does - i.e., with a smooth, solid surface rather than an open hatchway.  To me personally, that's just not acceptable on that scale.  But one could add a section of the gundeck under the hatch without too much difficulty, I guess. 

That Imai kit was sold very briefly in the U.S. under the Monogram label.  (I never even saw the box of one of those kits.)  It also turned up (even more briefly) with a "U.S.S. United States" label, but didn't accurately represent that ship (i.e., no raised quarterdeck). 

In 1969 Revell issued a Constitution in its short-lived "Simplified" series.  This was an effort to bolster sales of sailing ship kits at a time when the plastic kit industry was having major problems.  The kit was on about 1/159 scale and had an overall length of about 22 inches(according to Dr. Thomas Graham's excellent book, Remembering Revell Model Kits).  It was a scaled-down version of the 1/96 Revell kit, with many of the details considerably simplified to keep the parts count down.  ("Build a Legend In a Weekend!")  Most of the ports on the gundeck were molded shut, though the kit contained a section of gundeck amidships, with vague representations of the 24-pounders molded integrally with it, and the hatch in the spar deck was a real hatch.  For its intended market it wasn't a bad kit.  But it's been off the market for a long time.  (For the benefit of anybody who wants to look for it - Dr. Graham says it was issued under the kit numbers H-362 and H-357.)

At about that same time (the early or mid-seventies), Monogram produced a small series of highly simplified, if rather ingenious, sailing ship kits, including a Constitution.  It was somewhat smaller than the 1/192 Revell kit, and featured such things as a one-piece hull and yards molded integrally with the masts.  (Monogram was trying to keep the parts count really low.  There was some discussion of this kit recently here in the Forum; it looks to me like an interesting artifact from a difficult period in the industry's history, but hard to take seriously as a scale model.)  Aurora also produced a small Constitution.  I don't recall having seen it outside the box, but on the basis of that company's other sailing ship kits I suspect it isn't worth looking for.

A few months ago Revell Germany announced that it was reissuing some older kits to celebrate the company's fiftieth (I think) annivesary.  One of the kits on the list was a medium-sized Constitution.  I don't know whether this is the "simplified" version or the old Imai one.  I haven't heard anything of it recently; maybe a European Forum member knows more about it.

There are two excellent wood Constitution kits on the market:  a plank-on-bulkhead one from Model Shipways depicting her as she appears today, and a solid-hull one from Bluejacket that reconstructs her War of 1812 configuration.  Both of them are quite expensive, and a lot bigger than gjek's specifications.  At least one of the HECEPOB companies makes a Constitution kit, but serious scale modelers avoid those...things...like the plague.  I know of no other wood kits representing early American sailing frigates.  (Model Shipways used to make two versions of the Essex on different scales, but they've been out of production for decades.)

This is a sad situation - a reflection of the state of this segment of the model kit industry.  The unfortunate truth of the matter is that the range of plastic sailing ship kits never was very big.  (Considered in terms of model airplane equivalents, it never got beyond the level of the Spitfire, Mustang, and B-52.)  And nowadays it's just about dead.  Revell used to be the world's leader in plastic sailing ship kits.  The current Revell-Monogram catalog contains two sailing ships - both representing the same ship, one aged 51, the other aged 42.

Bottom line for gjeck:  in plastic, your options are to (1) settle for the widely-available Revell-Monogram 1/192 Constitution (which, with some effort, actually could be turned into a nice model), (2) seek out an old Revell "simplified" version or an Imai one, or (3) buy a bigger house and tackle the Revell-Monogram 1/96 kit.  If you want a President, you can do a fairly straightforward conversion from a Constitution kit.  If you want the United States, you'll need to add a raised quarterdeck to a Constitution kit.  If you want any of the other three (Constellation, Congress, or Chesapeake), your only option is scratchbuilding.

Well, for a "simple answer" that took up quite a bit of space.  Sorry to be so depressing.  It would be nice if the kit manufacturers would cater more effectively to sailing ship enthusiasts, but I see little reason for optimism that they're going to do so in the foreseeable future.

jtilley wrote:

At least one of the HECEPOB wood kit companies (HECEPOB = Hideously Expensive Continental European Plank On Bulkhead) has released a kit labeled Constellation, but it's based (more or less - with typical HECEPOB lack of concern for reality)... At least one of the HECEPOB companies makes a Constitution kit, but serious scale modelers avoid those...things...like the plague.

Don't hold back, John. How do you REALLY feel about HECEPOB kits??... :-}

Al Ross

I think jtilley was being marvelously ... restrained *chuckles to self*

But I have to agree with him on these plank on bulkhead kits for one reason, and it's the big one for me - price! I just can't get my head around spending that much for a single kit, let alone the years (in my case) it would take to build one of them.

Well, I've ranted at considerable length about HECEPOB kits in this Forum and elsewhere.  In the unlikely event that anybody's interested, a Forum search on the word HECEPOB will produce several hours' worth of reading material.

I'll take this opportunity, though, to emphasize a few points about the subject again.  One - I wouldn't be so vociferous about it if my views weren't shared by a substantial number of other experienced, serious scale ship modelers.  (If my opinions seem harsh, take a look at this article from the Nautical Research Journal:  http://www.thenrg.org/displayarticle.html?id=4 .  Charlie MacDonald wrote that article about twenty years ago, but the situation he describes is just as bad today.  His central target, the Sergal Sovereign of the Seas, is still on the market, under the Mantua label.)

Two - I have three particular reasons for objecting to the behavior of the HECEPOB companies. First, their advertising tactics are, in quite a few cases, downright deceptive.  (One of them claims, for instance, that a model built from its H.M.S. Victory kit will have "the same number of hull timbers as the original."  That's a bald-faced lie.)  Second, anybody who's ever worked in a hobby shop can tell you that HECEPOB kits, with their outrageous prices, shoddy materials, miserable plans, and irrational construction methods, drive far more people out of the hobby than they bring into it.  Third - a considerable number of people who do successfully complete one or two HECEPOB kits have the annoying habit of turning up their noses at serious scale modelers who choose to work in plastic, or to build from solid-hull kits.  (I quit taking part in another web forum when its management announced that any posts relating to plastic kits would be deleted - but those relating to kits from Mamoli, Artesania Latina, Mantua, Corel, and their ilk were fine.)

Three - for the sake of honesty, I have to emphasize that I haven't personally examined all, or even a substantial pecentage, of the HECEPOB kits on the market.  I'm sure there's some variation in quality among them.  And two HECEPOB companies, Mamoli and Amati, have given signs recently that they've seen the light and discovered what a scale ship model is.  Amati's "Victory Models" series is, as I understand it, designed by a gentleman who used to work for the excellent British company Caldercraft/Jotika, and the recently-announced H.M.S. Surprise from Mamoli certainly looks (on the sole basis of photos, I should emphasize) like its designers had made a genuine effort to find out what the real ship looked like.

Four - I've said this before and I'll say it again:  I don't have any desire to dictate how hobbyists spend their time and money.  Some people apparently get a good deal of pleasure out of working on those....things..., and that's certainly their privilege.  I just think purchasers are entitled to go into the exercise of buying HECEPOB kits with their eyes open.

Having built only two wooden ships (Mamoli's "Blue Shadow" and Constructo's "HMS Pandora") I can't be called an expert on shipbuilding nor the HECEPOBs. But I'm afraid we (continental Europeans) don't have much of a choice if we want to go the woodway.  Either we choose one of those hecepobs from our local hobbyshop (Caldercraft isn't readily available in the lhs and costs about twice the price of those Italian/Spanish kits), built from scratch or order a (to us here) far more expensive kit from your side of the ocean, that will take forever to arrive, and can only be ordered if you have a credit card.
 I understand that "real" modelellers won't choose hecepobs, but some people don't have the choice if they really want to built a wooden ship, so I'm afraid that, having no credit, will always prevent me from becomming a real modeller.

I wouldn't presume for an instant to pass judgment on the individual modeler who, by choice or necessity, buys and builds HECEPOB kits.  Some of my best friends have done it - and I certainly consider them "real modelers."  My complaint is not with the purchasers, but with the manufacturers.

One of my other big objections to the HECEPOB companies is that, with their widespread distribution and glitzy packaging and publicity, they undoubtedly have the effect of driving off the competition to some extent.

Sorry if my previous post may have had some sarcasme in it, professor, it was not meant like that at all. But sometimes (many times) I get so frustrated if I look at what I can buy in the shops, and what is available elsewhere.

jtilley wrote:

One of my other big objections to the HECEPOB companies is that, with their widespread distribution and glitzy packaging and publicity, they undoubtedly have the effect of driving off the competition to some extent.

In my opinion, the HECEPOB's shouldn't be blamed for that one, the competition should try to do a better job on marketing and distribution. 

I truly appriciate your answers. Your response has been VERY helpful. I think I will try for an Imai, or a remolding of it. If not then the 1/192nd Monogram offering will have to do. Again thank you. Greg.

you can always scratch build...

jtilley wrote:

I wouldn't presume for an instance to pass judgment on the individual modeler who, by choice or necessity, buys and builds HECEPOB kits.  Some of my best friends have done it - and I certainly consider them "real modelers."

Well, thanks for not passing judgement on me, John.  ;)

Mark 

Mr. Cooper - I sympathize with your situation.  It's been at least twenty years since I bought a sailing ship kit at a hobby shop.  The nearest respectable hobby shop is about half an hour's drive away - and it specializes in model railroading.  (Fortunately there's actually quite a bit of overlap between that hobby in ship modeling, in terms of materials, tools, paint, etc. - and the shop in question is an excellent one.)  If I drive two and a half hours I can visit an excellent hobby shop in Newport News, Virginia, which specializes in plastic kits and does a good job of stocking the most recent warship releases.  But if I wanted to buy a sailing ship kit - much less a wood one - in a hobby shop I genuinely don't know where I'd go. 

This branch of the hobby has developed in a rather odd manner during the past few decades.  The public seems to have accepted the HECEPOB kits - to the extent that the public is interested in sailing ship models at all, which isn't saying much.  Model Shipways and Bluejacket have made a valiant effort to package their kits in eyecatching boxes that, on those rare occasions when one does encounter a shop that stocks such kits, can compete with the HECEPOB packaging.  (The Olde Phogies among us can remember when Model Shipways kits all came in generic yellow boxes, and Bluejacket kits in generic white ones.)  But I can't blame any firm that hesitates to enter this phase of the market.  It's just too small, and too crowded with third-rate, overpriced merchandise. 

Now and then I think I see some signs that sailing ship kits are becoming a little more popular.  (I've been pleasantly surprised at the amount of interest in them that's shown in this forum.)  And I think the hobby of scratchbuilding sailing ships is in the best shape ever.  (For evidence, look at any issue of Model Shipwright, Ships in Scale, or the Nautical Research Journal.)  But I'm concerned that the business of selling sailing ship kits is in a real decline.  The plastic sailing ship kit is almost dead.  Let's hope that Model Shipways, Bluejacket, and Calder/Jotika are able to carry the torch for a long time to come - and that Amati and Mamoli actually are figuring out what scale ship modeling is really about.

Replying to the OP, the small Revell 1:196 Constitution has always been one of my favorite kits (I built my first one back in the mid 60's when I was in junior high school).

It can be used as a basis to build either the Consitution, United States or President without too much work.  If you don't like rigging ratlines, older releases with the coated string ratlines are preferable to the later releases with the tree-trunk diameter plastic molded ratlines.  Although some of the purists here don't like the coated string ratlines either, I've seen some nice-looking models that have used them and it saves months of work.

The complaint about the main hatch not being molded open can be fixed in about ten minutes with a knife, sawblade and sanding stick.  I've found that cutting holes is a pretty basic modeling skill  

I'm currently building one pretty much "out of the box", as the current restored Constitution (See my avatar). I've pitched the molded ratlines and am using the rigging plans included in the larger 1:96 Revell Constituton kit as much as practical (without getting into the realm of microsurgery tying knots).  My plans are to eventually 'backdate' another one to something close to 1812 configuration (details depending on what research sources I use).

My best advice is to research the ship you want to build and then plan to build it with a level of detail that stretches but doesn't exceed your skills.

Good luck and have fun,

Mark

   I contacted the represenative from Revell and asked about any USS Constitution releases for their 50th anniversery. Their response was they already produce two kits but they would "pass on the suggestion".    Greg.

The reference to a "new" Revell Constitution that I read earlier here in the Forum (I wish I could remember who posted it) was in reference to Revell Germany.  I'm not quite sure just what relationship exists between that company and the U.S. one (Revell/Monogram); I think the relationship has changed recently.  At any rate, the two seem to act like separate companies most of the time.

I'm almost certain that Revell Germany did indeed announce the kit.  We discussed the question of which old kit was being reissued - the Imai one (which did appear briefly in the U.S. under the Monogram label back in the seventies or early eighties), or the medium-sized "simplified" Revell one.  I don't remember whether anybody was able to figure it out or not.  In any case, I haven't heard any more about the subject since then - and no such kit seems to appear on the Revell Germany website.  It looks to me like the idea died.

Don't underestimate the old Revell 1/192 kit.  (1/192, by the way, is the scale listed for it in Dr. Graham's book.  I haven't measured the kit, but 1/192 seems likely; it's the equivalent of 1/16"=1', a fairly standard scale.  I suspect the designers at least intended it to be on that scale, but I have seen it listed as 1/196 in other places.  This was Revell's first serious sailing ship kit; my guess is that a standard scale was picked for it, and the box in which it fitted became the one that all the other "fit-the-box" kits in the series had to match.)  It represented the state of the art in 1956, and it's still perfectly capable of providing the basis for a fine model.  Redcorvette is right:  cutting out the spaces between the beams of the main hatch would only take a few minutes.  Fabricating the section of gundeck that would be visible through the hatch would take longer - but you might well conclude that, since so little would be visible to the average eyeball (with the ship's boats sitting on top of the hatch) that wouldn't be worth much effort.  An hour or so spent with sheet plastic, and perhaps some parts from the spares box, could make quite a difference, though.