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The troubled sieze and deadeye

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  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Pennsylvania (big state)
The troubled sieze and deadeye
Posted by Big Ole Bob on Thursday, September 6, 2007 12:38 PM

Big ole Bob here.

I've completed most of the body and mast construction and paintjob. Now its onto rigging. I admit that I've been delayed due to various other things in life but I'm ready to tackle this thing again.

I've only hit one snag and I hate that I cant get past it.

When 'Siezeing' a deadeye or eyebolt or any other object (in this case the ratlines) around the preformed deadeye assembly I cant seem to make it... stick.

I have the assembly held in place (fore top port plastic deadeye assembly), i have the rope/string im supposed to sieze semi-taunt. But no matter how i do it i cant seem to get the sieze to knot without slipping out of place. clove hitch's seem to slide out, and multiple windings seem to not stay tight. I'm about to go bonkers, say heck with it and use a little CA glue to mount the string into place Then to tie the sieze. The problem is that It would need to be in the position it needs to be in, otherwise the ca glue flows down the string and basicly mounts it into a permanent position reguardless of the direction the string/rope is supposed to be aiming in.

I've researched a lot of knots online found a few good places but this string doesnt seem to have any friction or width enough to get away with windings and such that I would love to do.

 About to go Bonkers Old Bob

P.S.

At one time I wanted to see how high a detail level a small constitution model could be. The following link looks to state that its 1/146 but it appears remarkably like the 1/196 model. its german but the photos are amazing. To date this is the highest quality version of that model that I've ever seen. If anyone has exceeded that quality then I'ld LOVE to see those photos.

http://www.jasper-moeller.de/galleries/Schiffe/Constitution/index.html

bob

If you can think it. Then someone has else has also thought of it. Then someone else has tried it. Then someone else tried and completed it. Then someone else tried and proved it CANT BE DONE!
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, September 6, 2007 9:16 PM

I'm having a little trouble figuring out just what the problem is.  The phrase "seizing a deadeye or any other object (in this case ratlines) around the preformed deadeye assembly" doesn't quite make sense.

Maybe a little vocabulary is in order.  (Please forgive me if I insult anybody's intelligence.)  A deadeye is a round, wood object with three holes in it.  One deadeye is seized into the lower end of a shroud (that is, a vertical or near-vertical line that runs from the ship's side to the head of the lower mast).  Another deadeye is fastened to the channel (or chain wale), a heavy timber that sticks out from the side of the hull.  The two deadeyes are then connected by a lighter line called a lanyard, which runs through the holes in the deadeyes.  Ratlines are light, horizontal lines that are clove-hitched across the shrouds; the purpose of the ratlines is to form a ladder for men going aloft.

In the big Revell Constitution kit, the deadeyes and lanyards are represented by plastic castings, and the shrouds and ratlines are represented (badly, in my opinion) by assemblies of plastic-coated thread.

If you're trying to work with the preformed, plastic-coated-thread "shroud and ratline" assemblies that come with the kit, I'm afraid I can't help much.  I heartily detest those things, and customarily throw them out before leaving the hobby shop.  They are indeed difficult to work with, largely because the plastic coating makes them so slippery.  CA adhesive might indeed be the best way to get them to stick.

If you're using conventional thread of any sort - well, seizing lines does take a little practice, but it isn't really so difficult.  One big asset for this job (and many others that come up in the process of rigging a ship model) is a small but sturdy vise.  (I have a Panavise that I've been using for about 35 years; it's as good as new - a great investment for any serious modeler.)  Say you're going to seize a shroud around a deadeye.  Clamp the deadeye in the vise - with one hole pointing up.  Pass the heavy thread that's going to form the shroud around the deadeye.  Clamp the end of it to the standing part of the shroud.  (A small hemostat is a useful tool for that purpose; you can also shave down the end of a spring-type wood clothespin to do the job.  With the two parts of the shround held together, pick up an appropriate length of fine line to form the seizing.  Start by tying a simple knot around the standing part of the shroud, and then start winding the seizing line around the two parts of the shroud.  (With a little practic you'll find you can get along without the knot; just make the first turn of the seizing above the protruding end of the seizing line, and the second turn below it.  Pull on both ends, and the seizing line will be held firmly.)  When you've taken the requisite number of turns, pass the other end of the seizing line between the last and next-to-last turns.  Pull the ends again, shove the turns against each other with a pair of tweezers, and you should have a nice, neat seizing.  Personally, I like to put a drop of white glue (e.g., Elmer's) on seizings just to be safe. I like it better than CA for the purpose; white glue doesn't make the thread as brittle, and can always be softened up and removed with the application of a drop of water.

That model on the German website is pretty clearly based on the old, 1956-vintage, 1/192-scale Revell kit - which is still available.  It represented the state of the art when it was originally released, and still holds up pretty well by modern standards.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Saturday, September 8, 2007 9:46 PM

What I do is pull the shroud around the upper deadeye.Hold it taut with a small alligator clip.And then take a small thread tie it off with  a small knot put CA ( the thicker one) on it pull the knot tight till it sets.Then you can pull your Lanyard tight wrap around the shroud.Then you can use white glue, Ca,And etc. to hold it.I always do shrouds an deadeye rigging on the ship.I found it easier.Good luck.

Rod

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: San Diego
Posted by jgonzales on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 11:07 AM

Hi Bob,

Am I to understand that you are rigging the shrouds by hand to the pre-formed deadeye/lanyard assemblies provided in the kit? I have done that, too, and there's not a day that goes by that a twinge of regret doesn't strike me when I look at the deadeyes, and wish that I had bought myself some wooden deadeyes and chains and strung the lanyards myself. Ah, well, I'll be doing that for my next sailing ship project.

Anyways, for this project, I seized the shrouds pretty successfully to these assemblies with a few tricks, without the use of glue. First, I heavily waxed the shroud threads and the siezing line. This made them sticky enough that the sieze won't slip. I normally wax my thread by running it through a block of paraffin anyways, but I found by accident that if I did not wax the lines, the sieze knot would easily slip up and down the shrouds I was trying to sieze. Second, I used what I call a modified Hangman's Noose knot to do my seizes. It locks down pretty well, and I have not had one of my seizes come undone, and thats with well nigh 2 years of rigging work on the model, plenty of opportunity for accidental bumps to put pressure on these knots. I'll try to take sequential photos in my next post on that hangman's noose knot. Third, I left a little slack on each shroud, rigged a whole set of shrouds, e.g. all the port and starbord fore-shrouds, and then slowly took up the slack, adjusting on each side, until all the slack on all the shrouds was taken up and the tensions were equalized.

 

Jose Gonzales

Jose Gonzales San Diego, CA
  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 7:20 AM

That's what I usually do.  I will loosely rig an entire set of shrouds, then equalize the tensions before I tie them off.

What it comes down to is, do what works for you.  Take everyone's advice, then make it work your way.  It will look good..

Grymm

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Pennsylvania (big state)
Posted by Big Ole Bob on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:52 AM

I -finally- got a pair of those 'helping hands' and found that its amazingly helpfull. As for what i'm reffering to for 'helping hands'

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=319

I finally decided to go ahead and take the advice of jose to heavily wax the lines and to use a noose knot. Now at the end of that I discovered a modified noose knot known as the "trilene knot" (from some fishing lure company) and discovered that its MUCH easier for me to do with my big bulky fingers. Does anyone know about the reliability of said knot?

I also used a teensy drop of CA to keep it in position after tying it. Unfortunately I made the horrid mistake of putting on the deadeye plastic assembly backwards (groan) not a major mistake but for my first ship (ehh)

You guys are a life saver

bob

If you can think it. Then someone has else has also thought of it. Then someone else has tried it. Then someone else tried and completed it. Then someone else tried and proved it CANT BE DONE!
  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 10:41 AM
Glue all the knots when you're done with them and it shouldn't matter what kind you use; FWIW I've been using the Trilene knot for years rigging my kid's fishing stuff and have never once had one fail.
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