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1/350 Nagato?

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  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Monday, November 26, 2007 2:06 PM
I think you're right; the price of oil is just one cause for increasing kit prices.  When you think of what it costs to make a mold that is going to produce a kit acceptable to the modern model-builder, and all the materials that go into that, plus distribution and advertising costs, etc, etc, it is pretty easy to see why the prices keep going up!  Add the plunging value of the Dollar on top of that, and you'd best be prepared to see these prices continuing to rise!  Just think, a few years ago, the Euro and the Yen were worth only two thirds of what they are now..... As for the price of the Nagato kit itself, all i can say is shop around on EBay and elsewhere, as I just bought one for $170, and only $5 shipping!
  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Sunny Califorina
Posted by Sherman1111 on Monday, October 15, 2007 11:58 AM
I think the Large battleship and Carriers are from Soar Art in 1/144 scale. I spoke to a distrubitor about them and at the time they were going to be prebuilt models.
  • Member since
    February 2016
Posted by alumni72 on Monday, October 15, 2007 11:32 AM

I apologize for my mini-spaz above, and thanks for the link to the Japanese model show!

It looks like someone is getting ready to offer a 1/144 Yugumo-class destroyer, too - but there's only one picture and no manuacturer's name is visible.  Sweet, though!  It's picture #197.

And there's several photos of the Aoshima 1/350 Takao as well.  Regarding the Nagato kit, though, I'm not too keen on how the secondary armament looks - it appears to have been an afterthought and thrown in very cheaply.  But the armor plating on the hull is a nice touch.

The Hiryu early on in the slideshow is beautiful - and huge!  It's hard to tell if it is meant as a display model only, or if it's intended to go into production.  Same for the (looks like) 1/72-scale I-400.  Man, I wish I could read Japanese!

  • Member since
    February 2016
Posted by alumni72 on Monday, October 15, 2007 10:47 AM
Sorry I'm "grumbling", but when you're unemployed after 24 years and have two kids getting ready to go to college, it kind of puts things in perspective.
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Tacoma WA
Posted by gjek on Monday, October 15, 2007 12:19 AM
The armor forum has a great set of photos of the Nagato. Go to the thread "armoured interior" then click on the web site listed "Bengal tiger" it is a model show in japan. Look at the index of photos and in the late 80's or 90's you will find the photos. It also appears Lion Roar will make a super set of PE for it. In addition there are also two IJN carriers shown that look 1/250 or 1/350 scale. They also have photos of Revells Bismark and the French battleship. For those who grumble about the cost of Nagato I think one of the photos shows about 19,000 yen for it. Nice kit!   Greg.
Msgt USMC Ret M48, M60A1, M1A1
  • Member since
    February 2016
Posted by alumni72 on Sunday, October 14, 2007 10:41 AM
 jtilley wrote:

  We need to accept that, for better or worse, it's simply a different hobby than it used to be.

This is a sad but true fact.  But what we need to realize is that it's not really a hobby at all - it is a business.  I collected baseball cards for a long time - so throughout my childhood I engaged in what were probably the two biggest hobbies a boy could engage in.  I stopped collecting cards for a number of years, but started up again when I had a son in the early 90's - I figured I'd collect some cards and give them to him to start his own collection.  Boy, had the hobby changed.  Instead of 25 cents a pack it was now $2 and more per pack.  I collected from 92 through early 98.  By then card companies were making 1/1 cards - cards of which there was only one single copy available.  By then I was mainly collecting individual players, so when this started happening I quickly realized that it was quite impossible to collect all available cards of any given player, no matter how relatively unknown he was. So I stopped buying baseball cards.  When those 1/1 cards appeared in the news selling for $17,000 apiece for some players - the obvious dawned on me.  The card companies could give a darn if we were able to collect the cards we wanted - all they cared about was making money.  They had taken a kids' hobby and turned it into an adult business.  Sound familiar?  Where once Revell and Monogram put out plastic kits that youngsters could afford, they now catered to the adult hobbyists.

Granted, it is difficult to say whether the hobby changed the price or the price changed the hobby - much like the chicken and the egg, we'll never really know.  Did model prices go up because kids were finding other things to do, or did kids find other things to do because they could no longer afford to go buy a model kit with their allowance?  (Or their newspaper route money, but that is another area where the adults have taken over from the kids.)

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, October 14, 2007 3:05 AM

Alumni's figures are very interesting indeed - and, in most respects, support the arguments I made a few posts back. 

I've never been willing to accept that argument that the price of a plastic kit should naturally be expected to vary directly with the price of crude oil.  Styrene plastic is just one of many things that contribute to the price of a kit.  The box, the instructions, and the decals all cost money.  Shipping costs money.  And a huge percentage of the income of any manufacturer goes to the salaries of its employees - from the researchers who design the kits to the artisans who make the molds to the people who put the bags in the boxes and load the cartons on the trucks.  The profits made by the various "middle men" also cost money - lots of it.  When I was working in a hobby shop, the standard markup at the retail level was 40 percent.  I don't know what it is now.  But in those days a kit that cost the consumer $20 cost the hobby shop $12.  The hobby shop normally doesn't buy the kit directly from the manufacturer, but from a wholesaler - who also has to make money in order to stay in business.  By the time the "middle men" get done taking their cuts, the amount of money that goes into the pockets of Revell or Hasegawa is considerably less than half what the consumer paid for the model.

I repeat:  a tripling of the cost of styrene, even if each party takes a profit on the increase, can't, in itself, explain the increase in the price of a kit by more than a quarter or so.

I'd be interested to see some figures (this is the sort of thing the manufacturers don't like to tell us about) concerning the number of copies of kits that are produced nowadays, in comparison with forty years ago.  I honestly have no idea what those figures look like, but I strongly suspect they've gone down considerably as the potential purchasers have (a) gotten older, and (b) declined sharply in number.  Today's typical modeler is an adult, with considerably higher standards and expectations than that 15-year-old on the bicycle heading for Woolworth's.  We need to accept that, for better or worse, it's simply a different hobby than it used to be.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2016
Posted by alumni72 on Saturday, October 13, 2007 11:02 PM

 Sherman1111 wrote:
2.60 for gas can you still buy it that cheap? I paid $3.01 this am.

Actually, I was rounding up a little.  I live 30 minutes outside of NYC in northern NJ, and thre are several stations nearby that sell regular for $2.53 right now.  There are others, however, that sell regular for $2.79, which is what the cheaper stations are selling Premium for.

 And I understand your logic about sitting on a short-run kit, but I really can't see a kit that sells originally for this much having people want to spend maybe twice that later on.  If it's clearly marked as a short run or limited edition, chances are that anyone who wants it will jump on it right away.  Sure there will be siome people looking for it - there always are - but it's a crapshoot as to whether or not you'll be able to make enough off of reselling it to make it worth your trouble.  But you really never can tell.

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Sunny Califorina
Posted by Sherman1111 on Saturday, October 13, 2007 4:12 PM
2.60 for gas can you still buy it that cheap? I paid $3.01 this am. as for the kit, it is pricey, will I buy it, Yes. Because if I wait a year it could be sold out and selling on Ebay for $ 300. The way I look at some kits as an investment. If I dont build it right away, I can always sell it later down the road as a profit. One good example I bought 2 of the revell space shuttle with launch tower for $ 29.00  and sold one recently for $175.00. granted I sat on them for a while .. but you det the Idea......
  • Member since
    February 2016
Posted by alumni72 on Saturday, October 13, 2007 3:32 PM

I thought about this and used a pretty unscientific approach - since the theory has always been that since styrene is a petroleum byproduct, the rise of oil prices would explain the rise of model prices.

Since the rise in opil prices is clearly tied in with the rise in gasoline prices, I compared gas prices with model prices to see if there was a clear relationship.  I say this is unscientific because, while I have access via the internet to past gasoline prices, I have no such reference to early model p[rices and only vague recollections of model prices while I was a teenager.  Later on, since I was paying for them myself, I definitely remember how much I had to shell out.

 1960:  Gas was .31 per gallon        Model was $1.00    A model cost 3 gallons

1973:  Gas was .39 per gallon         Model was $4.99    A model cost 12 gallons

1985:   Gas was $1.25 per gallon      Model was $12.99   A model cost 10 gallons

1989:   Gas was $1.12 per gallon      Model was $14.99    A model cost 13 gallons

2007:   Gas is $2.60 per gallon        Model is $29.99        A model costs 11 gallons

Trumpeter 1/350 Lexington  Gas: $2.60   Model:  $99.00   Lexington costs 38 gallons

Nagato:  Gas is $2.60 per gallon      Model is $156.00      Nagato costs 60 gallons

I'm no scientist, so this may prove absolutely nothing.  And those with better (or longer) memories can confirm early model prices; I went mainly with the cost of a typical 1/48 airplane kit now, and for the 80's I almost exclusively bought 1/700 waterlines.

But it seems obvious that the price of a model kit has not followed the price of gasoline consistently enough for model price increases to be blamed on oil prices.  I'm sure there are other costs involved, but from what I have read in the past those would consist mainly of one-time setup costs for molds; artwork stopped being much of an expense a long time ago.  Jtilley's explanation makes a lot of sense; there's so much more that kids are doing today in place of staying indoors and building a model, that manufacturers couldn't possibly expect to sell as many as they used to.

Consider, though, while not evreyone is a carrier fan, the fact remains that a battleship model would not be able to provide the same amount of detail as a carrier kit, simply because it has no air wing with which to provide it.  How can a battleship kit, at the same scale as a carrier kit, cost so much more?  I don't doubt that the battleship has plenty of detail - but it's been stated that it includes no PE or resin, as opposed to many of the lower-priced kits today.  I just don't see the justification.  There may very well be one - but until the cost justification is clear, I'll stick to lower-cost kits.  Heck - there certainly are plenty of them!

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Moorefield, WV
Posted by billydelawder on Saturday, October 13, 2007 12:51 PM
That's one of my favorite ships, but I'm not payin that much money for a kit of it!
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, October 13, 2007 3:21 AM

A study of the changing prices of plastic kits, compared to other commodities, over the past thirty or forty years would be interesting.  I've been a plastic modeler for slightly over 50 years, and I've seen the pricing structure change dramatically.  It's certainly true that prices - and wages - in general have gone up during that period.  (I have no trouble remembering when $10,000 bought a pretty luxurious brand new car.)  My perception, though, is that plastic kit prices have risen a good bit faster than those of most other things, because a number of other factors have been at work.

I had a job in a hobby shop during the mid- to late-seventies.  At that time it was generally perceived that the day of the American plastic scale model kit was just about over - and that the demise of most foreign kit manufacturers wouldn't be far behind.  Aurora had just gone out of business.  Monogram had been taken over by Mattel, and had quit producing serious scale models in favor of "Snoopy and his Sopwith Camel," "Snap-Tite" kits, etc.  Revell (the only other American company that amounted to anything) was barely holding its head above water, largely on the basis of its car line.  (It was taken for granted in those days that car kits made up the vast majority of sales.)  Etc., etc. 

Then came the energy crisis, which, in raising the cost of oil, gave the manufacturers the excuse to raise kit prices.  (I've always had my doubts about that one.  Yes, manufacturing styrene does involve buying petroleum products.  But the cost of styrene is a small portion of the cost of a kit.  My guess is that the styrene that goes into a 1/700 warship kit costs a dime or less.  A tripling of the price of styrene could justify raising the price by a quarter - but not tripling the price of the whole kit.) 

A couple of other things happened during the seventies.  The transition was rather gradual, and few modelers noticed it while it was in progress.  One was that, as Dreadnought pointed out, the standards of accuracy and overall quality went up significantly.  (I can remember when countersunk surface detail was rare on 1/48-scale aircraft - and almost unheard of on 1/72 ones.)  Part of that improvement was due to advancing technology; the computer has made a big contribution to kit design and mold production.  But a big part was due to consumer demand - and the expression of consumer demand.  Prior to the mid-sixties or thereabouts there was almost no such thing as a published "kit review."  But organs like Airfix Magazine, the British Scale Models, and the late, unlamented American Scale Modeler turned modeling enthusiasts into readers, and Airfix found its watermelon-sized rivets getting lambasted and ridiculed in public forums.  Kit manufacturers are notoriously close-lipped about their reactions to published reviews, but there's no doubt in my mind that those reviews had an impact.

I can't agree entirely, however, with Dreadnought's generalization that the manufacturers in the early days simply weren't interested in accuracy.  It's certainly true that the overall standards in that regard have gone up recently.  But there was a period (I'd put it at the late fifties through the sixties) when the artisans at Revell, Monogram, and Airfix were pushing the available technology, and their own very considerable skills, to new limits with each new release.  That was particularly obvious in my own personal favorites, the sailing ships.  The Revell H.M.S. Victory didn't have to have "wood grain" etched into its deck planks, or little coils of "rope," with individual strands, to sell well.  And the 1/110 figure of Captain Bligh in H.M.S. Bounty didn't have to have buckles on his shoes.  And the general in the 1/40-scale "Combat Team" didn't have to have George Patton's facial features (sculpted, as Dr. Graham reveals, by the artist who later sold Mattel the original master for the Barbie Doll).  For that matter, the Revell Arizona didn't have to have anchor buoys molded into its hull halves.  Maybe the modern adult modeler wishes it didn't, but in those days that was considered state-of-the-art detail.  Those guys were genuinely proud of their attention to detail and accuracy - for good reason.

That rise in publications was symptomatic of the biggest change that was taking place in plastic modeling:  it was becoming an adult hobby.  Dr. Thomas Graham's excellent history of Revell explains that, in the 1950s, model building (mostly plastic model building) became an extremely popular activity for American youth.  (I suspect similar stories could be told about England and various other countries.)  A survey conducted by Boy's Life magazine in the mid-fifties found that modeling was the most popular hobby among American boys.  In the seventies that changed - rather rapidly.  There were all sorts of reasons; competition from TV and other electronic media, the coming of the computer, the Vietnam conflict (with its associated impact on the popularity of the military), etc., etc.  Throw in the rise in kit prices (the days of the 50-cent kit and the 10-cent tube of glue were over), and it's not surprising that kids quit buying models. 

The disappearance of a huge chunk of the market obviously had an impact on another big aspect of the business:  the number of kits that could be sold.  When I had my job in the hobby shop it seemed to be a generally-accepted truism (though I certainly didn't have any great secret inside sources) that a plastic kit was expected to sell about 100,000 copies in its initial release in order for the manufacturer to break even on it.  That figure determined the price of the individual kit.  I have no idea what the corresponding numbers are nowadays, but my guess is that a for a kit to sell 100,000 copies in its first year would make the manufacturer think he'd gone to heaven.  The market just isn't as big as it was in the days when, as Dr. Graham puts it on p. 35 of his book, "The typical eight to fifteen-year-old American boy could hop on his bike, ride to the neighborhood Woolworth, and check out the newest assortment of kits sitting on the hobby shelves beside the toy department" - and, one might add, purchase one of the bigger, more exotic kits in that assortment for $2.00.  (Nowadays a lot of fifteen-year-olds would be embarrassed to be seen hopping on a bike for any reason - unless said bike had an engine attached to it.)  A few months ago I had an interesting conversation with a friend who's run an excellent hobby shop in Newport News, Virginia for many years.  I asked him how many of his regular customers were under 20 years old.  He laughed bitterly and said "none."  I asked, "when did that happen?"  He said, "at least twenty years ago."

There is, of course, a trade-off.  The products we get nowadays are, in general, of far higher quality than what we were buying fifty years ago.  (I do think it's interesting, though, that Revell is still making money off that old, nearly-fossilized Iowa-class battleship that first hit the store shelves in 1953.)  The pricing structure really has changed.  There was a time when, as a near-starving college student, I routinely bought kits out of curiosity.  (Maybe I'll get around to building it someday, but if I don't - hey, what the heck, it's only a couple of bucks.)  I can't do that any more.  I'm making a lot more money than I was back then, but the $20.00 (or more - lots more) that the latest state-of-the-art warship kit costs is far more than I consider pocket money.  I don't think I'm alone in that respect. 

I rather suspect that, in future years, the first decade of the twenty-first century may come to be seen as another "golden age" in the history of scale modeling.  Dreadnought is, of course, right:  the proliferation of "cottage industry" firms, the proliferation of photo-etching and resin casting, and the availability of the internet to get products into the hands of consumers have all combined to put high-standard modeling within reach of people who couldn't consider it before.  I remember when writers in respected journals solemnly agreed that reproducing a radar screen on 1/700 scale was impossible.  And who would have dreamed, even ten years ago, that we'd see the day when we'd be able to choose from two, competing, state-of-the-art series of styrene Essex-class carriers?

But I do worry about what's going to happen to the industry in the next decade or two - just like we worried about it back in the seventies.  It survived those years.  In some ways it's a better industry, from the enthusiast's standpoint, than it was then.  The kits are, in general, better, the supporting structure (research material, journals, aftermarket parts, materials, tools, etc.) has improved immeasurably, and we now have the internet.  On the other hand, the local hobby shop is almost gone from the landscape, and the lack of kids getting into the hobby makes one wonder where it will be in a few years.  (I belong to a fine ship model club that meets in Beaufort, NC once a month.  It has a membership of about 30.  I, at age 56, am one of the half-dozen youngest members.)  But I suspect that fifty years from now somebody or other will be buying and building scale model kits. 

Please pardon the self-indulgent musings of a certified Olde Phogey.  But this is stuff I can't help thinking about whenever the subject of "how much things have changed" comes up. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by Dreadnought52 on Friday, October 12, 2007 10:48 PM
 bob36281 wrote:
Geez, is there any ceiling to kit prices ??? I don't want to pay for a REAL ship !! Of course, when I started building models, most were priced at .49-.69, ah those were the days !!



Those were NOT the days. When models were that price what was the average wage? People have selective memories. The wages at that time weren't great at all so of course the price of non-essential items was cheap. The kits certainly were not very well researched or made. Accuracy? Please, give me a break, the only thing the manufacturers cared about was the number of different kits they could fit into the same size box. Nostalgia can warp perceptions over time. At this point in time is the best ever to be a modeler of the greatest number of subjects ever seen. WS
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: st petersburg, fl
Posted by bob36281 on Friday, October 12, 2007 10:25 PM
Geez, is there any ceiling to kit prices ??? I don't want to pay for a REAL ship !! Of course, when I started building models, most were priced at .49-.69, ah those were the days !!
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Western North Carolina
Posted by Tojo72 on Monday, October 8, 2007 12:22 PM
Did you know that www.greatmodels.com is pre-ordering it for $156.00 not cheap but in line with other recent 1/350 plastic releases

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Connecticut, USA
Posted by Aurora-7 on Monday, October 8, 2007 11:14 AM
 stretchie wrote:

if in your original post you meant the USS Massachusetts, then yes...its a South Dakota class. Sorry about that confusion. Smile [:)]

i've got USS North Dakota on the brain. Big Smile [:D] 

Is there a kit of that?

I was just at a show that had a 1/350 scale model of the North Hampton (CA-26) and at first I thought it was a battleship from the Deleware class era.

I'm suprised with it 1/350 carrier line up, Trumpeter has not yet done the Enterprise (CV-6). For myself, I'd like to see 1/350 IJN Mogami heavy cruiser class.

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: OKC
Posted by stretchie on Monday, October 8, 2007 11:00 AM

if in your original post you meant the USS Massachusetts, then yes...its a South Dakota class. Sorry about that confusion. Smile [:)]

 

i've got USS North Dakota on the brain. Big Smile [:D] 

  • Member since
    February 2016
Posted by alumni72 on Monday, October 8, 2007 10:58 AM
Maybe Trumpeter will eventually get around to it.  Once they're done with all the US battleships and carriers, and whatever else they have planned next.  Eventually.  I once hoped that Tamiya would give the Kongo class a try, but I've long since given up hope.
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Connecticut, USA
Posted by Aurora-7 on Monday, October 8, 2007 10:53 AM

Actually isn't it South Dakota class?

 

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: OKC
Posted by stretchie on Monday, October 8, 2007 10:30 AM

you do mean Delaware class battleship, of which there were two......Delaware and North Dakota. Smile [:)]

just thought I'd clarify.... Smile [:)]

 

and i'm (im)patiently waiting as well. Big Smile [:D]

there is a resin kit in the works from Commander Series Models.

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Connecticut, USA
Posted by Aurora-7 on Monday, October 8, 2007 10:10 AM
People have been dying for a 1/350 IJN battlewagon for decades so I'll be they'll do well with it. But personally, I'm also turned off by the price tag and won't be purchasing it for that reason alone. As much as I'd love to have one to display beside a Trumper North Dakota class battle ship, I'm just too casual a modeler to pay that kind of price.

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2016
Posted by alumni72 on Monday, October 8, 2007 10:01 AM

Hadn't heard anything at all about it, but if that is their actual price, then I don't want to.  There's no way I would pay that much for any kit!  I have way too many other expenses to meet, for crying out loud.  Sure, I understand there are costs involved and they need to make a  profit - but they just priced it right out of my range.

If they're looking for feedback, here's a great big fat NEGATIVE!

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: USA
1/350 Nagato?
Posted by glweeks on Monday, October 8, 2007 1:29 AM
Haven't heard anything more about it.  I saw the test shots at the IPMS Nats an the hull looked really good, I was a bit worried about how the deck fit togeather, if there would be any butt joins like on the Tamiya KGV & POW.  The Hasegawa guy said 230 bucks an no PE.  An injection kit priced like a resin kitSigh [sigh] oh well, just wondering if anybody's heard any more. Know the release date?        G.L.
Seimper Fi "65"
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