Help painting the Lindberg "La Flore"

JW, the Kennedy model looks beautiful, and unless there is something specifically for La Flore, its a pretty good way to go.

Dont worry about yellow ochre being "British." It seems to have been extremely common in the 18th century, and you see it in ships of many nations. Its cheapness, durability and effect combined to make it a popular painting material. It could be mixed with white or black for various (equally inexpensive) shades, and was easily visible at sea, something that may have been an advantage to warships in fleet duty prior to telegraphy. To modern eyes, its "classic" and very sharp looking, especially with the black wales and whiting below.

The descriptions of red are interesting and this must have presented a formidable appearance. The sailingwarships dot com site shows an old illustration of the 1764 three decker Ville de Paris in what may be a version of this - warm, red-amber color with black wales and the upper tier of guns set off by an off white or cream section. Its a lot nicer than I imagined.

Yellow ochre or red would both look great, and you would not lose either way. Have fun, Jim

I agree with Woodburner, with a couple of additional observations.  One - There was no standardized "rule" regarding the upper boundary of "bottom paint."  Some contemporary models and paintings show the "white stuff" extending all the way to the bottom of the lowest wale; others indicate a horizontal waterline, with black (or some other color) above it.  Two - It's sometimes difficult to determine, on the basis of old paintings and models, just what was yellow ochre paint and what was varnished wood.  At least one knowledgeable author has suggested that the hulls of warships in paintings from the 1770s and 1780s, which sometimes appear yellow ochre and sometimes appear black, actually represent two states of an oil-based varnish that got darker as it aged.  I have my doubts about that one, but the available information certainly does allow for a considerable range of interpretation - and personal taste.

I remember reading, quite a few years ago, an article (which I haven't been able to find recently) that discussed the various French frigates named La Flore (there have indeed been several).  My recollection of that article is pretty foggy.  I seem to remember, though, that the author concluded that one well-known model of a frigate with that name on it represented a preliminary design for a ship that hadn't actually been built.  I think that may have been the model that was presented to President Kennedy.  I also have the impression that the Lindberg kit (which I can remember buying back in the mid- to late-sixties) was based on that model.

My memory of all this is, however, extremely sketchy (as is my memory of lots of other things these days).  The nearest thing we have to a definitive work on the subject is a book that was published a few years ago by Jean Boudriot on the history of the French frigate.  I don't have a copy of it; I don't think our university library does either, and I suspect the book is out of print.  But if you can locate a copy of it, it should answer any questions  about the subject - to the extent that they can be answered.  M. Boudriot is the dean of the history of French naval architecture during the sailing ship period.

Sorry I can't be of more help with this one.  The bottom line, I think, is what Woodburner implied:  there's enough room for interpretation that just about any color scheme you pick (within reason) will be believable.

Good luck - and welcome to the Forum!

Later edit:  I found a few copies of the Boudriot book on the web.  This one, in the original French, is the cheapest:    http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&qi=X62sTAn36bLftunUDtTAJ2TNd3Y_0914088681_1:23:61

The book was published in a good English translation.  That same site, www.bookfinder.com, has a couple of copies - but they're even more expensive than the French-language one.  That, unfortunately, is usually the case with M. Boudriot's books.  They're handsome productions, always enlivened by his own wonderful drawings; he's one of the last exponents of the dying art of traditional drafting.  But they only seem to get printed in limited, expensive editions - and as they get older the prices seem to go up.  If you live in the vicinity of a good research library, or one that participates in the Inter-Library Loan Service, maybe you can get your hands on a copy that way. 

Thanks for the input - really appreciate it.

 On the subject of the yellow dye, I'm thinking that almost any color is appropriate, as long as it's yellow of some kind. I'm going to go see what the hobby store has on stock later today and pick something out that I think looks nice.

 About the waterline vs lower wales part with the hull tallow - indeed, painting all the way up to the side wale is the easiest to do - the masking is straight forward (I always use an airbrush for painting)... but I also had an idea about how one might be able to accomplish the water-line hull tallow approach. The problem with a boat is that the hull changes shape, and masking a straight line would be a pain (or at least require a LOT of patience)... I had an idea about this, what if you painted the lower section the hull tallow in an acrylic, painted a lacquer sealer coat (clear coat) overtop of it, let that completely dry, then, on the same day as you paint the black tar (as an enamel) for the wales, extend the black all the way down, overtop of the hull tallow, then take a thinner-based bath and let the ship (carefully as to not making too many bumps) sit into the water, and let the thinner rip off the exact amount of black paint as to reveal the hull tallow underneath, producing a straight line waterline so-long-as you don't bump stuff. You can make a thinner bath out of cheap house paint thinner (cheap stuff actually), but probably wouldn't want your model sitting in it for more than 10 seconds, at the absolute most (shouldn't require that much anyways if you just painted it). You could almost also have this be a wash.

What do you think of that idea? I would really like to see a kit like this have a water-line hull tallow and not just up to the side wales like I've seen every other kit of this kind have.

 Thanks again for your input, much appreciated! :)

JW 

If you havent gotten the yellow yet, I'd suggest a "Depot Buff" color available from either Polly Scale or Floquil in hobby and model railroad shops. It has a brown-yellow hue, typical of yellow ochre. A brighter shade is "PRR Depot Buff" which gives a more distinct appearance but still stays right.

Many yellows have a cold, green cast to them, like light or lemon yellow, and its best to avoid these, in my opinion.

Your waterline method is ingenious - but hard to control. From hard experience, simpler is better.

I'd recommend painting the hull below the waterline with acrylics and mask off when dry. Its easier to mask into the curve of the waterline - the folds in the tape are away from the edge - and you don't have to worry about trimming the tape for the wales just above the line. Masking requires a little time, but you can check it easily enough, and get a great line.

Dry brush a bit of your hull color onto the seam to start a barrier, preventing paint from seeping underneath, then progressively work up from there.

I now use acrylics for everything, since its easier to contol, dries rapidly, and allows thin wash coats. Sympathetic paints are good too, and there is no need to doing anything on a set schedule.

Have fun with La Flore, Jim

Woodburner, I definately can relate simpiler is better. I have been toying with that idea of a straight waterline for days now, pondering various ways on how to do such a thing... I had a few different ideas - one even including cutting a general hole out of the bottom of a box and painting the waterline at a 90 degree angle as to make the box be a flat mask. The thinner bath idea is great, but would require incredibly steady hands, because, as I already know, the minute I start dipping the model into the bath, it is going to cause ripples that will essentially screw up the line - I would need a mechanical dipper operating at a very slow dipping speed, and absolutely no floor shaking.

However, I talked to swolf for a while here, and some of the French ships have a slanted waterline at both bow and stern: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Maquette2museemarine.jpg

Now, when you look at that, tell me that just makes you want to do that? With the way the hull bends at the bow and stern, it wouldn't require much counterbalancing of the masking tape, just a bit at first and then eventually go with the curvature of the hull. I think I'm going to take the simple path here and try it with standard masking. See where I get. However, the thought of having to do wood-like paint scares me (I am really not good at impersonating wood via paint - never have been able to get it to look right).

For the paints, swolf also pointed me at this: http://img105.mytextgraphics.com/photolava/2007/10/24/frcolors-489m017yy.jpg (which is a nice color chart)

I tend to like to use a mixture of acrylics and enamels. As a software developer by profession, I've come to very much be of the mindset that everything has its uses but in the right situation. You're definately right about acrylics - they dry fast, they don't have as thick of a spray (can do transparency effects, so to speak) , but along with that thin spray I find I have to overspray a lot more than I do with enamels, which builds up and destroys fine detail. I also found out that with acrylics, the plastic surface MUST absolutely be washed prior, otherwise masking tape *will* rip the paint right off - my experience has been with such, even after a full WEEK of not having the time to even touch the model let alone not have it completely dry by the time i start working with it. Washes and dry brushing with acrylics has never worked for me, but I might be tempted to give it another try. However, spraying a lacquer clear coat as a sealer layer has done a lot, altho I still have had cases of washes eating right through the sealer coat.

I've been looking and comparing color charts and I'm really glad you mention the "Depot Buff" and "PRR Depot Buff" - I will take a closer look at those. No worries with the green, I am very much avoiding yellows that are too green, or even too orange. Speaking of which: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/MuseeMarine-Louis-XV-p1000452.jpg 

I really like the red on the deck that the artist did with that one. Very nice. 

Thanks for the replies, very much appreciate the ability to chat with a few more experienced than I am. I mostly don't venture into the realm of ships - I stay usually in WWII armor, but after doing a Fletcher-class destroyer for my dad's 62nd birthday (DD-682 Porterfield), had a blast with it and am trying a few age-of-sail things, since they looked interesting. Not to mention, if I have to put together another individual track link tread, I'm going to rip my hair out. A lot of tiny similar parts and me being a perfectionist doesn't work too well.

The method I've used for years to paint waterlines is simple and easy. First paint the bottom of the ship tallow color. Make sure paint covers above the waterline too. Then set up the model in a simple make-shift stand. Establish where the waterline should go. Set up a pencil on blocks at the correct height. With it firmly held horizonally, trace the waterline  around the hull. Then simply mask the bottom of the model following the line. With the masking still in place, paint whatever color you want above the masking on the sides. modekbob@hotmail.com

modelbob - Another similar idea I had, but with the usage of a laser level to mark with. They are fairly cheap, and a simple cheap-o will do.

I've got a Sears laser level that I bought several years ago for about $35.00; I suspect such things are cheaper now.  It works fine for marking waterlines, provided you take the trouble to make sure the laser and the ship are both level and the laser is at exactly the right height.  (If you tilt it even slightly to get the waterline in the right place, the waterline will take on a curve.)  You may find that the old-fashioned pencil trick is actually quicker.

Good luck.

Currently what I'm seeing: 

 I think the hull side coloring is in the general area, and the decks (although this photo doesn't do it much justice) do have a wood/deck-like appearance to them...

 Aside from the hull tallow (I haven't sprayed that yet), what of the colors? good? bad?

 

Looks mighty good from here.  I think the yellow on the sides is perfectly believable - though there's plenty of room for personal taste there.

For deck planking I personally tend toward a more dull, greyish shade - but I guess that's largely a personal matter too.

Good luck.  It's obviously off to a fine start.

I have been thinking about deck color on a ship. If newly cut wood is used when a ship is built, the color of the deck will probably be tanner than it will in a year or more. If it is a newly replaced deck it will probably be tanner than the old deck.

My wood fence in my yard was tan when new; after 15 years it is now grey. When my new neighbor added on to it; they had a tan fence. After a couple of years it matches mine!

I guess the bottom line is that both are right!

May the LORD bless you and keep you...

I'm still going to be applying several washes to the sides as well as the deck, and do a bit of drybrushing (although it is very tough to do such with these which don't have much raised detail)

Painting believable wood has always been my arch enemy. It's very hard to get it to look just right.

 Deck after washing and some dry brushing.

 I put a bit of raw sienna into the mix (a greyish tan) while doing some brushing to give it a more grey appearance... The wash itself was fairly heavy, and the drybrushing is still being worked on... Overall, It isn't bad, but I don't think captains would let their decks get too dirty, although you would expect some definate color variation from continual mopping, or so I would think...

Hi J,

I agree with JTilley, the colors are excellent, and the ochre is right on. It has a very convincing scale effect as well. The advantages of subtler colors are always rewarding. The interior hull color is very good too, it has a warm feel in the photos, which is very good. Congratulations!

Decks are always a bugaboo in plastic models, and it took a long time before I got around to getting something that worked. Unfortunately there is no experience like experience to relay this effectively, so keep on doing what youre doing, and you will get there. Right now they look quite good.

I'm working on two models currently, a resin kit of an 18th century vessel, and a heavily modified wood kit of a 17th century vessel. Both predate the use of holystoning decks, so they are somewhat grey. I used paint for the resin model, and tinted ink washes for the wood model.

By the late 18th century, I think holystoning comes in but I cannot be sure when or how, others are better versed in this. Holystoned decks have a very light grey-tan-white appearance, from the reflections of light of the fresh wood.

Your decks are a good medium between the two and I suggest keeping them as they are. I think you are doing a terrific job on this ship, neatly done, good sense of color, and very clean. Its great to see her as La Flore.

Cheers, Jim.

Excuse me, could you tell me the scale and the manufacturer of this plastic model "La Flore"