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Rigging for USF Constitution 1/96 - Kedge Anchor - Size and type of ropes???

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  • Member since
    March 2013
Rigging for USF Constitution 1/96 - Kedge Anchor - Size and type of ropes???
Posted by Marcus.K. on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 3:24 PM

Hello Ladies (are there some?), hello gentlemen,

since a few days I am proud owner of an already build USF Constitution (Revell - the kit is produced in the 60s and was build about 30 years ago). The only thing missing: the rigging.

My idea was to just do the rigging of the ship - as an exercise and as a proof that I can do it. If I can not, I would sell my new kits. So its more or less a test.

Nevertheless I want to do it as exactly as possible. At least to prepare for my own not yet built Revell kit which has to wait for several years until my smallest boy (13 weeks old) is old enough to allow me to spend more time with this hobby!

My preparations are: reading in forums a lot, looking for pictures of the Isaac Hull Modell (I got 24 of the by someone in this forum - thanks again), studiing books like Marquats AOTS, Howard Chapelles American Sailing Navy, of course Mondfelds book and - Brady´s Ketch-Anchor which discribes everything necessary for good seamanship ...

BUT - I got problems with the book. At the end there are a lot of tables describing the size of blocks and ropes. Only I do not understand the "unit". "Size 9" ... what size is it? Diameter in inch??? I guess not! But what else? Any idea?
On page 42 the different type of ropes are described - but not which rope was used for what!

So can anyone help me to find out which sizes I need for the standing rigging - or even better:
- can anyone "translate" me the definition of "size" in Brady´s book?
- Can anyone explain which type of rope was used for what (and where can I read that?)
- Do you have any hints for me, which books might help me for my project?

Thanks in advance!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, October 25, 2007 1:27 AM

I don't have a copy of the Brady book in front of me, but in English language sources rope sizes are usually listed in terms of circumference, in inches.  So the phrase "nine-inch rope" presumably refers to a piece of rope 9" in circumference.  To determine the diameter, divide the circumference by pi, or 3.1416....  For model building purposes, dividing the stated figure by 3 will be fine.  

To get the diameter of the thread that would represent such a rope accurately on 1/96 scale, you should theoretically divide the stated figure by pi and the result of that calculation by 96.  But if you simply divide the stated figure by 300 you'll be close enough.

I'll have to get out a copy of the book to see what "types" of line it refers to; I'll try to remember to do that tomorrow (it's currently 2:30 a.m. here). 

Brady's Kedge Anchor is a fine primary source, but it's a little late for the Constitution in her 1814 configuration (which is what the Revell kit represents).  The other sources you've listed are also excellent.  (The Anatomy of the Ship volume has taken some criticism - most of it justified, in my opinion - on the grounds that the author missed some important sources and made some assumptions about the ship's hull structure that pretty clearly are incorrect.  But as a guide to her rigging it's about as reliable as anything else.) 

I'll take the liberty of recommending two more books.  Darcy Lever's The Young Officer's Sheet Anchor is a manual of seamanship from the late eighteenth century; sort of an earlier equivalent to the Brady book.  Lee Valley Tools, of all people, publishes an excellent, modestly-priced edition of it that includes some additions from a later American edition.  Here's the link:  http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=40983&cat=1,46096,46100

And James Lees's The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, 1625-1860 is a modern work, written by an expert in the subject from the National Maritime Museum, that gives step-by-step descriptions of virtually every spar, fitting, and line in a ship, with detailed notes on the dates when practices changed, the dimensions of virtually everything, etc.  It's reasonable to assume that American vessels of the War of 1812 were rigged according to British practice unless you have specific evidence to the contrary.

Finally, don't sell the instructions in the Revell kit short.  The kit is based on the set of plans that were drawn for the Smithsonian Institution by George Campbell - one of the best in the business.  He, in turn, relied heavily on the famous "Isaac Hull model" of the ship, now in the Peabody-Essex Museum of Salem, Massachusetts.  That model (which is one of the sources Mr. Marquardt missed) is unquestionably our best guide to how the ship was rigged during the War of 1812.  The Revell instructions are pretty consistent with it.  They're simplified somewhat in terms of sizes of line, blocks, and so forth, but in terms of the leads of the lines in the standing and running rigging they're actually pretty reliable.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2013
Posted by Marcus.K. on Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:55 AM

Hello Prof. Tilley,

thank you for the explantation. Now I know how to judge which rope I can use!

And thank you for trying to find out which rope to use for what - these information will be propably not necessary for a model in scale 1/96 - but my intention is that if I stay with model ship building (if I manage to "survive" a complete rigging - you see: I do have a big amount of respect of this task!) I once will try to build a small  "maschine" to produce my own ropes - and latestly then I need to know which type of rope for what!

So right now I look at this project as preparation and as a sort of study for the future.

Concerning the AOTS book of Marquardt. I followed your discussions here and know about the weaknesses. But I also understood that everything shown concering the rigging is known as good source.

I know about Darcy Levers book - I just ordered it, its available in Germany and real not expensive;-))) But its the british way of rigging - and I had a lot of discussions concering the differences between british and american way of doing it. So here my intention is to check both and compare - and maybe do a little report about my findings. Just to learn. I know that Brady is from the 1840´s .. but on the other side: I expect the differences between correct rigging in 1840 and in 1812 not as much as the differences between british and american style. What do you think?

The James Lees's The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, 1625-1860 is on my christmas list now - thanks for the hint!

Concerning the Revell instructions themself: I am surprised. I tried to check some details in the photos of the hull-model and I thought I can see that the Futtock Shrouds are different from what Revell wants me to do. In the model the fixation is down on the deck - on the oposite side. But the Marquardt sketches and I think the hull modell show a fixation at the mast top?

Another detail which surprised me: please look at the photos in my german forum (I can not add the pictures here ?!)

http://www.modellboard.net/thread.php?threadid=22022&sid=d0a67a6aea18a8a6c4a7f88cb68ac510

If you look at the pictures you will notice that the top masts do differ from the design of the hull model (a picture is in a following responce and all pictures I got are in the following link). The royals are fixed to different kind of mast?? Do you know the Revell-method? Is that realistic?

Here is a link to my listed hull-modell-photos:

http://www.modellboard.net/thread.php?threadid=19916&hilight=hullmodell&sid=

Thank you for taking you the time. I know the Constitution is not your favorite model, but I very much value your knowledge and experience and appreciate that you share it !! I think its not a secret anymore that I do love the Constitution. I think its one of the most beautiful ships ever build. But I also know that this is a question of taste - and its not to discuss!

Best regards

Marcus 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:59 AM

Well, that's quite a list of questions!  But I'll see what I can do.

To begin with, I'd better acknowledge that my German is wretched and not up to the task of reading all those web pages.  I had one year of German back in college - longer ago than I care to think about - and I've forgotten most of what little I ever had.  In that sense I am, I fear, a typical product of the American education system.  As usual, I'm embarrassed to compare our training in languages with what so many Europeans routinely get. 

I think you'll find that the Isaac Hull model and the Revell rigging instructions actually agree remarkably closely - with the big caveat that the Revell version is simplified a bit to accommodate the typical purchaser of the kit.  There aren't enough sizes of blocks, for instance, and those plastic pieces that the the futtock shrouds are supposed to run through are fictitious.  But in general the kit drawings are pretty good - a somewhat simplified version of the rigging diagram Mr. Campbell drew for the Smithsonian.

The futtock shrouds, as described in the kit, generally match the arrangement on the Hull model.  The diagonal lines running from one side of the fore and main tops to the channels on the other side of the ship are called "Bentick shrouds."  They're usually associated with somewhat later practice - but the Hull model has them.  (They're visible in at least one of the general shots on the German website.)  Some contemporary pictures of the ship show the earlier, more common method of securing the futtock shrouds to the lower shrouds (like the mizzen mast is rigged on the Hull model); it's clear that the ship was rerigged quite a few times in her career.  I don't think any knowledgeable person would argue about a model that was rigged either way.

The kit also reproduces the mast configuration of the Hull model (and Mr. Campbell's plans) pretty accurately - including the rather unusual arrangement whereby the uppermost sections of the masts (either skysail masts or flagstaffs, depending on whether the ship was rigged to set skysails or not) are stepped abaft the royal masts.  You can see them on those photos of the Hull model, too.  The Constitution carried skysails at some times in her career and not at others.  My guess is that she did indeed have them at the time that old model was built; those "poles" pretty clearly are intended to be sturdy enough to have something more than flags flying from them.  Mr. Marquardt includes an interesting contemporary drawing that shows her rigged with triangular skysails; I suspect she had conventional, rectangular ones at times too.  In any case, they probably were "set flying" - i.e., the yards were sent aloft only when the sails were to be set.  That would explain why the Hull model has the poles but not any yards above the royal yards.

As for the distinctions between American and British practice - to my knowledge there are no American equivalents to Darcy Lever or David Steel from the period.  (The Lee Valley edition of Lever does include some emendations made by a nineteenth-century American editor, but they're generally a bit more modern than the War of 1812.)  It's generally safe to assume, on the basis of the contemporary evidence we have at our disposal, that American riggers followed British practice.  If I were building a model of a late-eighteenth- or early-nineteenth-century American warship my inclination would be to follow the diagrams in the Lees book except in specific cases where a good, reliable source (e.g., the Hull model) told me to do otherwise.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2013
Posted by Marcus.K. on Thursday, October 25, 2007 2:44 PM

Oh yes - your answers always help to come forward! Thanks again! 

So I got the question concerning the diameter (or "size"). A Size 9 rope would have a diameter of about 0.75 mm (9 inch / 300 * 25 mm/inch = 0.75 mm - roundabout)

and concerning the reliability of the Revell-instruction which I now will study more intensive now.

According to your hint I found the picture(s) you talked about. I now believe: the fore and mainmast of the hull-modell do have Bentick shrouds - the mizzenmast does not.

Since you mentioned that in earlier discussions I ordered today the Bluejacket-plans and book. I am looking forward recieving it ... can´t wait - its almost like christmas!!! 

Now (right now! ;-))) ) my only question still open is the question: which type of rope for what?

In the german forum we discussed that no one will really be able to judge wether a rope has 4 or 3 strands. But 9 compared with 3?? Is there any source where I can get different type of rope?

Thanks in advance for your help.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:30 PM

These webs can help:

Invaluable The Elements and Practice of Rigging And Seamanship, 1794, by David Steel, http://www.hnsa.org/doc/steel/index.htm

Text-Book of Seamanship, 1891, by S.B.Luce

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/luce/index.htm

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/luce/part1.htm

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19180/19180-h/19180-h.htm

http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/B_S_M/Contents.html

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, October 26, 2007 12:17 AM

I have to confess I've never seen rigging line referred to as "Size 9" or "Size 1."  I'm assuming that what's being referred to is simply the circumference of the line - in inches.

If you've got the instruction book for the Bluejacket kit on the way, you'll probably find it answers just about every practical question you may have about the rigging of this particular ship - to the extent that such questions can be answered.  Despite the fame of the Constitution, and the amount of research about her that's been done over the years, there's still plenty of room for guesswork, inference, and interpretation about many details.

The most important thing to worry about regarding "types" of rope, in modeler's terms, is the direction of the "lay."  "Cable-laid" rope is spun up left-handed.  (If you look at a strand of it running vertically, the strands go up and to the left.)  "Hawser-laid" rope is right-handed.  Throughout the period of the sailing warship, nearly all running rigging lines were hawser-laid.  In the British Royal Navy (and probably in the U.S. Navy), cable-laid rope was reserved for major lines of the standing rigging, such as the stays and shrouds.  (Typically, each of the three strands was hawser-laid, and the three were spun together left-handed.  That system was believed to give great strength - though how much difference the lay of the rope actually made is questionable.) 

I suspect that reference to "nine-stranded rope" actually refers to three strands, each spun up from three smaller strands.  That's actually how most large-diameter rope was made. 

Shrouds were generally made of "shroud-laid" rope, which had four strands rather than the usual three.  That's really a matter of academic interest, though; in practical, modeling terms the eye can't detect how many strands are in a rope unless the end is visible (and unlaid).  In my little model of the frigate Hancock I made some of the lighter lines with two strands (which is utterly inaccurate), but nobody's ever noticed - and I'd have trouble at this point identifying the two-stranded lines myself.

In those photos of the Hull model it's hard to tell (at least on my little monitor screen) which lines are cable-laid and which are hawser-laid.  Most of the shrouds and stays seem to be hawser-laid, but I think I can see a few cable-laid lines running across a couple of the pictures.  That is not, however, definitive evidence of how the real ship was rigged.  The person (or people) who built this model quite obviously had to work with a severely limited range of materials  There's a remarkable contrast between the workmanship of the hull and deck fittings of that model, on one hand, and the rigging, on the other.  The guns are downright primitive, such things as the capstan and fiferails aren't much better, and the modeler apparently was completely defeated by the steering wheel.  The rigging, on the other hand, is remarkably thorough and detailed - obviously the work of somebody who knew exactly what the real thing looked like.  But small-diameter cable-laid line probably was hard to find (as it is today).  Or maybe the real shrouds were hawser-laid.  I don't think anybody knows for absolute certain.

As I've remarked in earlier threads, I really wish some scholar would undertake a thorough study of this model and write an article or monograph about it.  It may well be the most historically important ship model in the U.S., but I have the impression that relatively little is known for certain about it.  I wonder, for example, just how much restoration and repair it's undergone over the centuries.  Is the rigging all original, or has some of it been replaced at some time or other?  (In one of those pictures some shiny brass belaying pins are visible; they look remarkably like they were bought fairly recently from a ship model supply company.)

For a first attempt at rigging a ship model, I frankly don't recommend getting obsessed with the mechanics of rope making.  Concentrate on "learning the ropes" - understanding what each of the rigging lines is for, and how they all work together to make the ship function.  There are various sources of model rope; my own preference for many years has been silk thread, but it's been so long since I've bought any that I really wouldn't know where to find it.  (I've seen some ads for it on the web, but I've never tried any of those sources.)  Model Expo sells a "cotton-poly mix" that I rather like; it has a good, rope-like lay and reasonable colors.  Bluejacket sells several sizes of linen, a traditional material that some modelers really like; I do too, though I haven't had much success with it on the small scales to which I tend to gravitate.  (It also only comes in black and white, so running rigging line has to be dyed.)  I'm sure there are some good sources for rigging thread in Europe, but I'm not familiar with them.

Virtually all commercially-available thread seems to be spun right-handed (i.e., cable-laid).  Modelers with some experience often end up making their own "rope-making machines," which can be used to spin fine thread up in either direction.  (Model Expo offers a kit to build a rope-making machine.  I've only seen pictures of it; it differs from the traditional design in that it doesn't have a "top" to set the "pitch" of the twist.  It may work perfectly well, but I have reservations about it.  For the time being I'll stick with my own, primitive version.)  I don't recommend worrying too much about this sort of thing on one's first rigging project, though. 

Hope all that helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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