Revell 1/230th USS Skipjack

Thanks!

Tracy White wrote:

I've got copies of Navy documentation for Guppies that directs them to be painted in Ocean Gray, but obviously the Navy and National Archives aren't going to have much of anything on nuke boats declassified yet so I have no "primary Documentation leg" to stand on.  I admit that I could be wrong, I'm sure Ironship would love to tell you about how wrong I am But I hold that Scorpion's sail was gray. The pattern we see is not consistant with faded black.

 

After a few EMail exchanges with a old shipmate he has confirmed that a few of the Skipjacks had "Haze" Grey "Steel" Sails.. He rode the Shark on a few Med Runs in late 60s He seemed to remember even some Permit Boats with grey sails too. It may have been a area of ops thing for that time period. He said it was same color used on periscope shears more than likely for the same reasons.. I hear stories about how difficult it was to hold a Skipjack at Periscope depth without broaching the sail!!!  Grey would lend to help in "Broaching camo".. LOL.

You are correct many Guppies had  Dark grey fairwaters in 50s and 60s..( darker shade than the Haze Grey of the 60s) However the guppie I was on ( USS Bang) had black overall but this was in 1970 when most if not all boats had gone to black.

Nice to put that one to bed eh???

Gentlemen! I think we can agree that all of life is an infinite variety of shades of gray, can we not?

Beyond that, all is subjective.

I would say, considering how the curved surfaces are not the same shapes, that the light will reflect differently. Note that the hull and "canoe" aren't the same shade either, are they different shades of gray too? Stealth aircraft are shaped in this way on purpose, so that radar will not reflect back in the same manner. If you are so convinced that this vessel's sail was painted gray, inspite of no supporting evidence and no eye witness accounts, then by all means, paint it gray. It's your project. But if you plan on entering it in a contest then you should come up with some kind documentation to back your choice up with. I still say it is not gray. Subs are purposely painted the same (especialy the same class) as to prevent easy identification from each other. You asked for opinions and I gave you mine, I don't see the need to argue about it anymore. If you do paint it gray, good luck in finding out what shade of gray that was applied to it.

subfixer wrote:

If you would look closely, you will see that the sail is being covered with a tarp or shroud.

And your point is? You're posting photos of Scamp; the original request was for Scorpion information. Two different boats. 

subfixer wrote:

This picture shows the sail as being lighter because of the way the sunlight is hitting it. It is not gray.

OK, then how do you explain the darker color on the canoe behind the sail? 

Your first two pictures came in as red-x.  You tried to link to Navsource pictures.    Navsource does not allow hot linking of their resources.   Too many photo collection sites were coming in and rip-copying their material - and individuals were posting their material without attribution.  

To get the pix to display you need to copy them off to your pwn Photobucket (or Flickr, etc.) page and link to that (with attribution), or post the link to the top of the Navsource page and give a photo count offset - as Tracy White posted elsewhere.  

The reason that a photo may have appeared when you previewed it was that it was local in your machines cache and it didn't have to off to find it when it did the preview.

If you would look closely, you will see that the sail is being covered with a tarp or shroud.

 

In the next shot, the view is of the back of the shroud. It looks to be the sail but it is not. When subs are being overhauled, it is common for the sail to be covered in order to keep the exposed areas clean and dry.

By the way, these photos are of the drydock being flooded after hull maintenance. The boat appears to have a lot left in store for it as there are still many service lines extending out to it. Also the girded structure, called a service bridge, has not been removed yet. This would indicate that the boat will still be in the drydock for some time to come.

This picture shows the sail as being lighter because of the way the sunlight is hitting it. It is not gray.

I've got copies of Navy documentation for Guppies that directs them to be painted in Ocean Gray, but obviously the Navy and National Archives aren't going to have much of anything on nuke boats declassified yet so I have no "primary Documentation leg" to stand on.  I admit that I could be wrong, I'm sure Ironship would love to tell you about how wrong I am

But I hold that Scorpion's sail was gray. The pattern we see is not consistant with faded black.

The black paint used in the earlier times was essentially the same paint used on a surface ship's boot topping stripe between the haze gray hull and the antifouling paint on the hull. It wears out and fades more readily than you would expect. Nowadays an epoxy paint is used but still it fades. A submarine will come back after a relatively short period and one of the first things done is a repainting of the topside surfaces. Access panels on the sail are routinely removed for maintenace. While they are off, they are repainted inside and out. when they are replaced they don't always match the surrounding painted areas. Submarines are somewhat skuzzy except when fresh out of a drydock overhaul. Painting a ship is a normal chore, just like taking out the trash, it's just constantly being done. If you want to paint a ship in a realistic manner, never make it look all uniform and pretty, they are weathered as badly as a combat vehicle. Go to the armor section above and try some of their weathering techniques.

This question about topside color on US Nukes has been brought up before .. here and in other forums.

A few months ago during a meeting at USSVI in Groton CT I took the opportunity to ask this question to several period SSN Sailors.. Not a single Vet who rode early SSNs could recall "any" boat being painted grey. They were aware of some guppies and one of the few "Tonkin Gulf Spec Op SSBNs" being painted with grey sides and fairwaters.. even the SSN 571 was painted overall black soon out of the yards. ( She was gray originally like a guppie) Most explain the appearence of grey in photos to the nature of the paint used which was more like a "Tar" than a paint and faded fast in operations..But they all said it was possible a nuke was painted grey at some time???? Oh well.

 Keep in mind that Nuke Boats spend as much time underwarter as some skimmers hull bottoms do and salt water will do a number on pigments etc.And I believe the Skipjacks may of had  Fibreglass sails early on which would also lend to the grey fade color... I will find out..

 I have seen this fade effect up close and personal on every boat I rode.

I have also seen this effect on several of the 35MM photos I have in my personal collection of my boats photos.. The fading was most evident on Med and WestPac  Boats.

But like most things in this wonderful hobby of ours it's still the builder's artistic license to do as they wish.. I usually used NATO black or even one of the Darker RLM Black/Grey shades or combo of all on my Nuke Boat kits depending on Boat and condition I wish to model her in.

It's funny that we see less of this effect on 688s and newer boats due to the tiles.. The fairwaters seem to fade a little but the tiles stay blacker longer.

I am 100% sure Scorpion's grey was not because of paint fading.

Using this picture again to frame the questions:

* Why would the very TOP of the sail and dive planes be black if they gets more sun and foot wear than the sides?

* If the answer to the above is that they were able to paint those areas easier and left the vertical surfaces faded, why are there odd splotches of fresher grey paint over some of the panels?

Finally, if you look at Scorpion during her trials you can see not only Admiral Rickover, but a lighter color on the fairweather with a dark color up top and on the dive planes.

Early Skipjacks and 598 Class Boomers all had 5 blade screws similar to the 7 blade screws but fewer blades. 7 blades came about the time of Scorpion's demise.

The only nuke boats I ever saw in "Grey" were a few specops boats in WestPac. This was due to their frequent surface ops etc. I have seen Westpac Guppies in Grey also. Most Boats out of the yards are Black/Red.. But usually painted overall black during between patrol refits.

All 3 Boats except one that I rode were overall black..Depending on the season and the location of the Boat's port, waterlines ran from dirty white to greenish in color...

The Grey tones we see on the fairwaters etc are the way the paint fades in some conditions depending on operating area etc.

Unfortunitly the Revell Skipjack kit is a Toy.. Too many problems to list.. But YMW does a very good Skipjack in 1/350.. It's a resin kit and a little pricey but well worth it if you desire a accurate kit.

Numbers were removed from US Submarines in the mid 60s.. WE had a wood plaq with boats name and hull #we would hang from fairwater or brow while in port..

Thanks for the offer of the article Big Mark, but I think that the photo that SeaDragon021 has pointed me in the direction of will be enough for me to do what I want.

Many thanks Seadragon021. I couldn't have come up with a more perfect picture for my needs if I had been there with a camera myself. Thanks also Tracy White.

Now I just have to scratchbuild the thing

They had to implement that as so many people were embedding pictures of theirs in other web sites the additional traffic was costing them huge over-use fees.

 

Thanks for the help Tracy. It's been many months since I've used Navsource for this sort of thing. I don't remember having that problem before.

As Navsource doesn't allow linking directly to their images here's the page it's on (fifth down) 

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08588c.htm

Here is a link to a drydock photo of USS Scamp, a sister ship of Skipjack. A very nice shot of the boats tail surfaces and its propellor.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0858821.jpg

 

 

An Article about the acurization of the Skipjack exists.  It was originally published in the Subcommitte's magazine way back in the 90's...  I wrote to the author and he sent me these pages from the magazine.  It was VERY helpful.

If you would like a set of these 8 pages, email me at:

mparis666@yahoo.com

Enjoy!

RedCorvette wrote:

Scorpion shortly before her fatal cruise where the sail looked to be dark gray with some splotchy areas that had obviously been repainted, likely for corrosion control.

It was indeed gray... this was camouflage and not weathering, as suggested above. You can see it on this picture before sinking and this mosaic of the sail on the bottom (if the color shift were caused by sediment that had settled you wouldn't be able to make out the door).

Thanks for the help everyone. That picture is going to be a great help Subfixer.

Regards.

David.

Numbers are applied on US Navy subs fairly rarely, usually on special occasions such as commissioning, change of command (sometimes), and photo-ops. The number is removed prior to deploying. The ship's name is carried with brass letters on a varnished wooden plaque that is hung from the sail, this too, is used only on special occasions and removed prior to getting underway. The most common method of identifying a sub when it is in port is by a banner attached to the personnel brow. It will have the ship's name, hull number, crest, squadron crest and the ship's motto emblazoned on it usually. 

I'm finishing up a Revell Skipjack.  I could never find any photos to verify the gray/black/red scheme called out in the instructions and shown on the box art.

I'm certainly not a sub expert, but my research on subs from the class seemed to show a commissioning/sea trials scheme to be black/red with large hull numbers on the sail and the name on the sail spine (sorry if that's not the correct terminology).  Photos show the hull numbers and names generally vanishing during their operational lives with draft markings as the only visible markings.

I did find some photos of Scorpion shortly before her fatal cruise where the sail looked to be dark gray with some splotchy areas that had obviously been repainted, likely for corrosion control.

Took the easy route and just painted my model black over red.  Still looking for a replacement for the "ceiling fan" screw supplied in the kit.  I'll try to get some photos of it up later.

Mark

This is not exactly how they look, but close. The blade tips are actually a bit more pointed and sharp. Here's a link:

     http://americanhistory.si.edu/subs/operating/propulsion/propulsion/index.html

 

On the picture of the boomer in drydock (middle), check out what it peeking out of the shroud to the left. The picure at the bottom is the USS Jacksonville in drydock at Norfolk Naval Shipyard. This is a pretty good shot of what is the usual status of a boat in overhaul was in the past, nowadays, the hulls are not being painted red. The hull has been cleaned and partially repainted but the towed array fairing on the port stern plane gives you an idea of how gnarly the boat can look prior to cleaning/painting.

Red for the lower hull, black for the upper hull and sail.  Almost all of the pictures I've seen show the sail to be black.  In some B&W photos, the sail looks lighter (almost gray) than the hull, and is probably due to the weathering of the paint.  You may have to look at the other SKIPJACK class subs as references: SCAMP; SCULPIN: SHARK; & SNOOK .  Another resource is the SubCommittee photo gelleries or vendor list.