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Yachting World - Cutty Sark v Thermopylae

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  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Yachting World - Cutty Sark v Thermopylae
Posted by davidson3 on Saturday, March 8, 2008 6:15 AM

 

Does anyone have a copy of the article "An Interesting Comparison: The Plans of Cutty Sark and Thermopylae" that was published in Yachting World Vol XLVIII, No 288?

Have checked the libraries in Australia and they don't go back far enough and the publisher doesn't have them catalogued that far back so searching would rquire some effort.

I'm guessing the edition is proabably between 1900 and 1920 although this is at best a guess.

thanks,

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, March 8, 2008 10:12 AM

Can't help, I'm afraid; the libraries around here don't have Yachting World that far back.  

If you're looking for plans of the two ships, they aren't hard to find.  The George Campbell plans of the Cutty Sark are excellent, and available at an extremely reasonable price through the ship's website:  http://www.cuttysark.org.uk/index.cfm?fa=contentShop.productDetails&productId=40&startrow=1&directoryId=6

As I understand it no detailed original drawings of the Thermopylae have been found.  (If I remember correctly there is a good set of hull lines, but that's about it.)  Some good, knowledgeable people have, however, undertaken to reconstruct what she looked like.  Reconstructed drawings appear in at least two books by David MacGregor:  Fast Sailing Ships and Tea Clippers.  (I think at least one of the Thermopylae sheets may also appear, on a very small scale, in the same author's British and American Clippers; I'll try to remember to check.)  Mr. MacGregor's books are fairly easy to find, both in libraries and on the web.

Sorry I can't help more; I'm afraid that's the best I can do.  Maybe some other Forum member has the old magazines within reach.  It sounds like an interesting article.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by davidson3 on Monday, March 10, 2008 2:29 AM

Thanks JT,

    I have requested the MacGregor books from my local library after finding an earlier thread of yours on Thermopylae.  The article in Yachting World is referenced in one of the few books I've found on Thermopylae, unfortunately it was good on history less so on plans and design.

   Hopefully someone in the UK may be able to help.

cheers,

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, March 10, 2008 11:11 PM

Coincidences are amazing things.  Thirty years ago, when I made my first trip to England, I bought, in the gift shop on board the Cutty Sark, a most interesting booklet:  a reprint of an article from the 1966 Quarterly Transactions of the Royal Institution of Naval Architects.  The article was entitled "The Restoration of the Cutty Sark," by Frank G.G. Carr.  He was in charge of the actual restoration process, in the late fifties and early sixties.  I remember reading it voraciously that evening in the (incredibly cheap) London rooming house where I was staying, and I kept it for quite a few years until it disappeared after a move.  Recently I found a copy of the same, reprinted booklet at a used book site called www.bookfinder.com, and ordered it.  It arrived the day before yesterday.  I spent some time last night reading it again.  Lo and behold, it contains a reference to the Yachting World article davidson3 has been looking for.

Here's the relevant quote (from p. 214 of the Carr article);

"I have...discovered, since my paper was presened, that in the Yachting Monthly for February 1930, Vo. XLVIII, No. 288, pp. 291-293, there is a valuable comparison between the lines plans and sail plans of the Thermopylae and the Cutty Sark, in an article by Mr. Leslie Knopp, M.Sc., Ph.D., who was a member of the Institution until the end of 1957.  Mr. Knopp had made tracings from the authentic original, which he told me he had borrowed for the purpose from the late Mr. Arthur Briscoe, the well-known marine artist.  I therefore got in touch with Mr. Briscoe's son, but learned that unfortunately there was no record of these plans among his father's papers, and certainly they were not found after his death....

"In his comment on them Mr. Leslie Knopp wrote: -'Thermopylae was the first well-known departure from the high rig as compared with width of canvas.  She never had skysails and moonsails like her contemporaries, but her royals were the largest ever set, being about 19ft. deep on the main!  All her masts were shorter than Cutty Sark's, and her yards were longer.  The lower rigs told in a quartering breeze and Thermopylae could run at over 13 knots with every stitch of canvas set, and it was not until 14 knots had been passed before the royals had to be taken in.'"

Mr. Carr also reproduces the lines plans and sail plans of both ships.  They're quite small (the hull lines about 5 1/2" long, the sail plans about 3 1/4") and without much detail - but there's enough there to make it obvious that, contrary to what Revell would like us to believe, the two ships were quite noticeably different from each other.

I'm afraid that doesn't add much to what davidson3 already had - though it does nail down the date of the Knopp article and establish that it was only three pages long.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2003
Posted by shannonman on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 8:38 AM

Is this any help?.

 

http://www.antiqbook.co.uk/boox/vct/90006097.shtml

"Follow me who can" Captain Philip Broke. H.M.S. Shannon 1st June 1813.
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by davidson3 on Thursday, March 13, 2008 2:04 AM

JT,

   You are a whiz.  Now I have the year and month, the key piece of information I was missing.

 thanks,

 Bill

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