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Lindberg's Jolly Roger a.k.a. La Flore

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  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Lindberg's Jolly Roger a.k.a. La Flore
Posted by enemeink on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:00 PM
I just picked on of these up at my local hobby shop in Socal for $10 bucks in the clearance bin. i'll probably get to it in about a month or so......
"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by RALPH G WILLIAMS on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:39 PM

Lots of posts on the form about this model. Check out the build by Donnie and the very informative comments of Dr. Tilley. The posted builds of this model have looked quite good. Looks like a good deal for $10.

rg

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:51 AM

yeah I searched it before I posted that's how I found the name "la flore". thanks anyway though.

yeah I think i'm going to go back and buy another one. so I can build the La Flore and do a beat up Jolly Roger.

"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:30 PM
You could also paint one in French colors, and the other in British colors for a diorama (have to do a bit of kit-bashing, but not much!).
  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Thursday, March 27, 2008 11:38 AM

If I had room to put it that would be cool.

"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, May 10, 2008 9:20 PM
The Lindberg releases of "pirate ships" actually reflect earlier releases of La Flore, Wappen von Hamburg, Sovereign of the Seas, and St. Louis.  I think that it is a shame that these very nice kits aren't packaged with their historic names.
  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Monday, May 12, 2008 1:05 PM
I think that it was more of a marketing tactic to bring new people into the hobby. If you think about it it's kind of a good way to test the market to see if there is a new spark. But at the same time it becomes an annoyance. Becuase nothing new is coming out and there is just re-issues under new names. Not to many people have heard of the name La Flore compared to how many have heard the name Jolly Roger. I'm new to ship building and love it but at the present time it seems that selections are limited for styles and eras for the ships that I love. in a couple of years i might have to start building wood plank of frame kits. seems like there is more selection than plastic but they cost about 10 times as much. kind of ironic in a way......
"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 7:45 PM
At least this issue has inspired me to start the Wappen von Hamburg (a.k.a. Captain Kidd Pirate Ship).  Like the La Flore (a.k.a. Jolly Roger), this kit boasts open gunports with cannon on carriages!  It is a nice little kit; perhaps I will get results approaching that nice job on Sovereign of the Seas!
  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 11:45 AM
I actually bought 2 when these were in the discount bin at my LHS. i'm going to build a Jolly Roger just for fun and the La Flore. I haven't really looked at them too much so I don't know what to expect. since I'm new to ship building i'm trying to build from different companies to get a feel for them.
"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    November 2007
Posted by Woxel59 on Thursday, May 22, 2008 6:02 PM

I recently bought another version of this model via Ebay: Its the 2006 Lindberg issue,
now named " Flying dutchman" and its molded in glow-in-the-dark-plastic.
So the model doesn´t need  fluorescent colour like Revell  ghost ships , which
were molded in black. The instructions however are still the old ones, including painting hints.
Only the nameplate of the ship´s stand has been retouched. So the model can be
built as an original La Flore.  "La Flore and"  "Wappen von Hamburg"  a.k.a "Captain Kidds
pirate ship seem to be original Lindberg issues, while "Gouda" and "Royal Sovereign"
with their thick plastic sails originally were issued by Pyro in 1966 or 1967.

As I am from Germany, I would like to know, whether La Flore and Wappen von Hamburg
ever were issued in the USA, or whether Lindberg used these names/boxes only for export,
because at the time of their issue around 1968 they also were offered as Jolly Roger and Captain Kidds pirate ship.

 

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Thursday, May 22, 2008 8:59 PM
I have also seen this kit in Germany, but called 'East Indiaman'.....
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, May 23, 2008 1:25 AM

I bought La Flore and the Wappen von Hamburg in Lindberg boxes back in the late 1960s - the former at a department store in New York City (during a family vacation trip) and the latter at the wonderful hobby shop in the basement of Hall's Hardware Store in downtown Columbus, Ohio (my home town).  I didn't see them before they appeared in those packages; I think that was their first appearance in the U.S.

The two kits have a distinctly European look to them.  I know the Wappen von Hamburg was already a popular modeling subject in continental Europe, but I suspect few, if any, American modelers would have ranked her high on their list of wanted subjects.  La Flore, on the other hand, did have an American connection of sorts:  there was a big model of her in President Kennedy's personal collection of ship models.  (The Mariners' Museum, where I eventually ended up working for a while, was holding a special exhibition of models from the Kennedy collection when I went there for the first time, in about 1970.  I don't know where those models ended up; maybe at the Kennedy Library in Boston.)  Whether that Kennedy connection had anything to do with Lindberg's choice of her as a kit subject I have no idea.  I have the impression that she'd been a popular model subject in France for some time.  (I believe the model was presented to President Kennedy on some formal occasion by a French official of some sort.) 

For their age they weren't bad kits.  The "wood grain" detail was overdone, of course, and some of the details were on the crude side.  On the other hand, they had full-length gundecks (in contrast with the Revell and Airfix warships of that vintage).  And Lindberg had an interesting idea for reproducing shrouds and ratlines with slightly flexible, slightly stretchy polyethelene plastic.  I was never able to get them to fit right (and virtually every photo of a built-up one I've seen has had the same problem), but I think the concept was worth pursuing.

I don't recall that either of those kits ever appeared in a Pyro box.  (They may, in fact, not have appeared at all before Pyro went out of business.)  I've never seen either of them in a box with a label other than Lindberg on it.  But I can only talk about my own experience in the U.S. (subject to the very severe limits of my highly defective memory).  I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that they actually originated with some European company.  They certainly don't look like anything else I've ever seen from Lindberg, Pyro, or any other plastic kit manfacturer.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
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  • From: Switzerland
Posted by Imperator-Rex on Friday, May 23, 2008 7:51 AM
 jtilley wrote:

La Flore, on the other hand, did have an American connection of sorts:  there was a big model of her in President Kennedy's personal collection of ship models.  (The Mariners' Museum, where I eventually ended up working for a while, was holding a special exhibition of models from the Kennedy collection when I went there for the first time, in about 1970.  I don't know where those models ended up; maybe at the Kennedy Library in Boston.)  Whether that Kennedy connection had anything to do with Lindberg's choice of her as a kit subject I have no idea.  I have the impression that she'd been a popular model subject in France for some time.  (I believe the model was presented to President Kennedy on some formal occasion by a French official of some sort.) 

 

Kennedy's model of La Flore is indeed kept at the Kennedy Presidential Library in Boston; you can see a picture and a short description of it here:

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset+Tree/Asset+Viewers/Slide+Show+Viewer.htm?guid=%7B0284F298-E835-429E-9D15-D2F2EF431F2D%7D&type=slideshow&num=2&cmsmode= 

Kennedy's other models are also kept there. Among those there is... the Sea Witch. The Sea Witch is yet another well-known Lindberg model kit, released in the 60s...

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, May 23, 2008 9:54 AM

Vry interesting, Imperator Rex; thanks for the link.

I'm not so sure about the description of the ship as having been part of D'Estaing's fleet.  Somewhere or other, a long time ago, I read an article about the various eigheenth- and nineteenth-century French frigates named La Flore.  (I wish I could find that article again; so far no luck.)  It sticks in my memory that there's some controversy among the French historians about which was which, and which one that model represents.  I believe one theory is that the model represents a ship that never actually got built.  But I honestly don't remember.

Later edit:  I found the article!  I'm embarrassed to admit that it was almost literally under my nose:  in the CD version of the Nautical Research Journal, Vols. 1-40.  (That set of two CDs, by the way, is one of the biggest bargains in ship modeling or maritime history.  It can be ordered through the Nautical Research Guild website.)  A 57-year-old memory is a strange, unpredictable, and sometimes downright infuriating thing.

The article in question is in Vol. 27, No. 4 (Dec. 1981), pp. 185-194.  The title is "The Frigates La Flore," and the author is none other than Jean Boudriot, dean of the history of French naval architecture in the sailing ship period.  I think we can believe what he says - with the obvious caveat that he, or some other historian, may have dug up some additional information about the subject in the past twenty-seven years.

He says there were four French Frigates named La Flore (five, if one counts the first one)The first was built in 1706.  She was actually a "barque longue," "a type of vessel that might be considered the equivalent of a corvette," but "in the early establishments of our Navy this vessel, despite its trifling power, is called a frigate at times [pp. 185-6]."

The second Flore was built in 1728, and had a configuration that seems odd to non-French eyes:  a full-length gundeck with twenty-two guns on it, four light guns on the quarterdeck, and a "half battery" of four 12-pounders amidships on a deck below the full-length one - just a few feet above the waterline.  This ship ended her career as a receiving ship at Marseilles, being (apparently) broken up in 1761.

La Flore Number Three was a normal-looking frigate of twenty-six guns built in 1768, to a design by a famous naval constructor named Groignard, and remained in service until 1785.  M. Boudriot describes her, and the circumstances of her design and construction, in some detail, but doesn't say much about her career beyond the fact that (p. 185) she "has a certain standing by reason of a scientifc voyage primarily devoted to the testing of marine chronometers, a cruise carried out in 1771-1772."

Number Four is, it seems, known in some French circles as "La Flore, called 'American.'"  M. Boudriot says (p. 190) that "this frigate is claimed to have been a gift of the United States to France, but I venture to enter certain reservations about that assertion, because I have brought to light...the fact that on September 30, 1784 the engineers Chevillard and Penetreau drew up a document reporting on their inspection of the frigate La Flore, brought from Bordeaux to Rchefort to be sold conditionally by private parties to the King."  M. Boudriot suggests that this ship may have been confused by somebody or other with "the old frigate La Vestale (1756), taken by the British in 1761, scuttled in 1780 when Rhode Island was evacuted, raised by the Americans, and sold to France."  (I think this was the ship the British named Flora, which took part in the capture of the Continental Frigate Hancock in 1777.  The British name would help explain the confusion.  If I'm right, she was scuttled in Narragansett Bay not in 1780 but in 1778, when the Comte d'Estaing's squadron was approaching.  That, I think, was the extent of the connection between any ship with a name resembling "La Flore" and the Comte d'Estaing.) 

At any rate, La Flore Number Four was sold out of the French navy in 1792, placed in service by her new owner as a privateer, and captured by the British in 1798.

The fifth La Flore was built in 1804 and wrecked in 1811.  That ship was the last French sailing warship to carry the name.

Now, which of these ships does the Lindberg model represent?  The answer seems (though not absolutely definitively) to be: none of them.

It looks to me like the Lindberg kit and the Kennedy model were based on the same plans, which also were the basis for a famous model with the name La Flore on its transom that's in (or was as of 1981) the Musee de la Marine in Paris.  (I believe a set of modern plans based on this model is among the series published by the Friends of the Musee de la Marine; my guess is that the designers of the Lindberg kit worked from those plans.  I don't know how old the Kennedy model is - or where M. Malraux got it.  Maybe it was also built from the Friends of the Musee de la Marine plans.)  According to M. Boudriot, that model is identified as "The American La Flore," but he's established that the "American" connection is almost certainly bogus.  M. Boudriot says the Musee de la Marine model doesn't match the known characteristics of either Number Four or Number Five.  (The model has fifteen gunports on each side.  That was highly unusual; most French frigates had, at the maximum, thirteen per side.)  He spends several paragraphs establishing that the model fairly closely resembles four big French frigates, La Sylphide (1756), La Terpsichore (1763), La Renomee (1767), and L'Hebe (1757).  They were the only French frigates of the period that had fifteen ports per side.  But he doesn't think the modeler was trying to represent any of those ships accurately; the model lacks several distinctive features of each of them. 

M. Boudriot also comments (p. 191) that "the rig seems to me later than the hull, withits mizzenyard converted into a gaff, an arrangement they commenced to adopt of vessels of low freeboard around the 1780s; perhaps there has been a restoration of this part of the rig?"

His conclusion (p. 194) is that "the model of La Flore does not represent any of the frigates which bore that name; that the model was made between 1765 and 1770; that it may have been inspired, as regards the arrangment of it armament, by the large frigates of Groignard [the designer], yet without representing any one of them; that the maker very arbitrarily called this frigate La Flore and produced a figurehead quite in harmony with that name.  But was it he who took the initiative? This liberty astonishes me on the part of a man who had substantial knowledge such as attested by the realism of the model he made.

"Briefly put, this handsome model is not of Groignard's Flore [Number Three] nor of the "American" Flore, [Number Four] but what frigate does it represent?  On this point the problem remains to be solved, if one supposes to begin with [the supposition] that the maker of the model did really desire to represent a quite specific frigate."

Unless somebody produces some authoritative piece of research on this subject dating from a later date than 1981, I think we can take that as the last word on it.

As I remember, the instructions in the original issue of the Lindberg kit mentioned something about the scientific voyage of 1771-1772 - the one made by La Flore Number 3.  The reference to the ship represented by the Kennedy model having served with the Comte d'Estaing is simply wrong.  Does any of the three models - Musee de la Marine, Kennedy Library, or Lindberg plastic kit - represent an actual ship?  Probably not.

I think at least one of the notorious HECEPOB wood kit companies (Mamoli, Amati, or one of that crowd) used to make a La Flore kit.  (There's none currently on the Model Expo website, which is where I usually look for info on the strange realm of the HECEPOBs.)  My vague (as usual) recollection is that this kit looked remarkably like the Lindberg one.  That probably means it was based on the Musee de la Marine plans.  I frequently get up on my soapbox to rant at the HECEPOB companies and their frequent failure to do research, but in this case I have to go easy.  It seems that, deliberately or otherwise, the builder of that old model fooled a great maritime museum, at least one other excellent modeler, two ship model kit manufacturers, Les Amis du Musee de la Marine, a French novelist, and a President of the United States.  Quite an achievement.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
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  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Friday, May 23, 2008 11:08 AM
There were several French frigates named 'La Flore,' one of which was an 8 Lbs frigate, and the other an 18 Lbs frigate (Boudriot counts five different frigates with this name).  The model of 'La Flore' by Lindberg is supposedly the 8Lbs frigate that was part of D'Estaings' fleet (built 1769, taken by the Brits in 1782).   However, the decorations on the model most closely resemble 'Flore,' a 28 gun 8 Lbs frigate originally launched in Le Havre in 1757.  This ship, originally named 'Vestale,' but was captured by the British frigate 'Unicorn' in 1761, and then taken into the Royal Navy as 'HMS Flore.'  Subsequently, 'HMS Flore' was in Newport, Rhode Island during the Revolution, and in 1778, the Brits attempted to scuttle the ship upon the approach of the French fleet of D'Estaing, but this was unsuccessful, and the ship was then taken by the Americans.  Sent to Boston for rearming and refitting in 1782, the ship was returned to the French, and went back to France along with the Marquis D'Lafayette in 1784, retaining the name 'Flore.'  Refitted by the French in Rochefort in 1787, it was subsequently used by the French Navy in operations along the coast of Senegal until 1789, and was finally sunk in action with the British frigates, HMS Phaeton and HMS Anson in 1798.    Photographs of the model in the Musee' de la Marine in Paris can be seen at http://rubens.anu.edu.au/php/PanoradoViewer.htm?img=/new/france/paris/museums/musee_de_la_marine/ship_models/la_flore/_images/IMGP8934.JPG&horzangle=60&startscale=0.35&startpanspeed=3
  • Member since
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, May 23, 2008 5:11 PM

The history provided in the actual La Flore version of this kit reads, "In the year 1771 the French ship "LA FLORE" set sail from Brest on a historic naval astronomy expedition. On board the LA FLORE were three members of the Marine Academy and the Royal Academy of Science, Verdun de la Crenne, the Chevalier de Borda, and Canon Pingre. Carried onboard the ship were two naval time pieces and a variety of other instruments for checking the influence of changing temperatures on the movement of time pieces and to examine and compare the different methods of determining longitude at sea by the use of chronometers. The results of these experiments proved beyond any doubt the value of chronometers in sea navigation."  The hull is pierced for thirty guns. It seems clear that Lindberg intended to model La Flore number three.  I took this history directly from the instruction sheet of the original Lindberg model, which I have in my collection. Whether they got their design right is another matter.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, May 23, 2008 5:17 PM

The releases of La Flore and Wappen von Hamburg only appeared under the Lindberg label to the best of my recollections. I do agree that their detail is rather heavy, but all model ships have their flaws. That beautiful model of the Airfix Royal Soveriegn, for example, has no planking details on the hull. However, that is the challenge of building plastic model ships; we take the original flawed kits and improve upon them. I am just grateful that we still have these kits, albeit packaged as pirate ships. They extend the notoriously skimpy selections of plastic sailing ships available to us with some interesting designs (Airfix, Revell, et. al., take the hint!)

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    November 2007
Posted by Woxel59 on Friday, May 23, 2008 5:31 PM
I never have seen a model kit version "East Indiaman" from Lindberg in Germany and also
dont have any hints in my Lindberg catalogs. A buddy of my modelers club,
who also builds sailing ships, doesnt know this one either, it´s a mistery for us....
  • Member since
    November 2007
Posted by Woxel59 on Friday, May 23, 2008 5:49 PM

To Warshipguy:

Yes, I agree, its better to have reissues of these old kits in pirate ship form than to have
no more models. And as I saw, only the boxart was changed and maybe the nameplate
in the instructions. Only a pirate flag was added on an extra sheet of  paper,
but the original painting hints were not changed. A proof, of how original these reissues
are, is the fact that in Captain Kidds pirate ship kit (aka the Wappen von Hamburg),
the orginial flags (on decal sheet) weren´t omitted. The flag shows the badge
(in German badge means "Wappen") of the city of Hamburg: a white tower of a fortress
on red ground. The fortress tower has an arch/door in the middle of the building,
so that it looks like a big "H". (The first letter of Hamburg). Hope this is an
interesting detail for you. By the way, "Wappen von Hamburg" was my first large
sailing ship model, I built it in 1973  and I liked very much that the plastic parts
came in three different colours, so I thought I needn´t to paint the ship.
That was a mistake of course and so the model wasnt finished totally and it was
damaged when my smaller sister pushed it off a shelf. I repaired the masts
but as it didnt work well, I later destroyed the model with a small air-gun.
(Not the only model with this fate....)

Reading articles and responding them in this forum for me is sometimes a
walk down memory lane, I like it. 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, May 23, 2008 8:44 PM

To Woxel59,

Thank you very much for your comments about the flags. You certainly clarify the meanings for me! I really appreciate it. And, I too have used many early models for target practise!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Friday, May 23, 2008 9:47 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

The history provided in the actual La Flore version of this kit reads, "In the year 1771 the French ship "LA FLORE" set sail from Brest on a historic naval astronomy expedition. On board the LA FLORE were three members of the Marine Academy and the Royal Academy of Science, Verdun de la Crenne, the Chevalier de Borda, and Canon Pingre. Carried onboard the ship were two naval time pieces and a variety of other instruments for checking the influence of changing temperatures on the movement of time pieces and to examine and compare the different methods of determining longitude at sea by the use of chronometers. The results of these experiments proved beyond any doubt the value of chronometers in sea navigation."  The hull is pierced for thirty guns. It seems clear that Lindberg intended to model La Flore number three.  I took this history directly from the instruction sheet of the original Lindberg model, which I have in my collection. Whether they got their design right is another matter.

Bill Morrison

Yeah, well forget about the Lindberg 'potted history,' as it has little relationship to the model ship they actually created!  The original model used to develop the Lindberg kit is in the Musee' de la Marine in Paris.  Please have a look at the photo of that particular museum model which I referenced above, and then have a look at the stern decorations of the Lindberg model 'La Flore,' and you will find them identical!

  The 'La Flore' referred to in the Lindberg 'potted history' is a different 8 Lbs frigate built in Brest in 1769 to a Groignard design, and rated for 28 guns (you should note that French ships often had more gunports than guns to fill them, with the chase ports forward often only equipped with guns when actually chasing something.  Additional 'gunports' aft were also often glassed-in, as these were cabin-spaces for various officers, even in wartime).  This ship initially sailed with D'Estaings fleet in 1778, but as soon as D'Estaings opened his secret orders to sail to America to assist the American Revolution, he ordered 'La Flore' to return to France to acknowledge the order to give notice that all was well (which is a pretty stupid move if you ask me... What if the British had captured 'La Flore on the way back to France?  It could have disclosed the secret mission of D'Estaings fleet!).  In any case, this particular 'La Flore' was taken by the British in 1782, but being of no use to the Royal Navy and in very bad condition, was broken up. Reference Jean Boudriot 'History of the French Frigate 1650-1850.'

Hope this clears things up!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, May 23, 2008 11:36 PM

My reading of the situation is that Lindberg based its kit on the plans published by the Association des Amis du Musee de la Marine (http://www.taubmansonline.com/ ; click on "Alphabetical List," then "Plans L-P," then on "La Flore"), which pretty clearly were based on the model in the museum.  Apparently some knowledgable people thought it represented La Flore Number Three and some thought it represented Number Four - until, more than a decade after the Lindberg kit was originally released, Jean Boudriot established that it doesn't really represent either of them.  Lindberg, in other words, seems to have perpetuated an honest mistake. 

That said, I'm strongly inclined to agree with warshipguy and Woxel59:  given the shortage of plastic sailing ship kits on the market, we should be glad we have easy access to this one.  For its day it's an excellent kit.  It doesn't come up to twenty-first-century standards in a lot of ways, but the basis for a nice model is there (as can be seen in photos of the models several Forum members have built from it). 

I do, I confess, have reservations about the way Lindberg is marketing it (and the Wappen von Hamburg, St. Louis, and Sovereign of the Seas kits).  Calling them "pirate ships" obviously is nothing more or less than a marketing ploy; in most realms of business the people responsible for such a stunt would be subject to arrest or lawsuit on charges of deceptive marketing.  But these are, as we've established in several recent Forum threads, tough times for sailing ship model enthusiasts.  We might as well make the best of it (we don't really have any choice, after all), and be glad the kits are on the market at all. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Saturday, May 24, 2008 9:04 AM

Yes Professor Tilley, I think you are absolutely right!  I also agree that while it is a travesty to have these kits out there as 'pirate ships,' at least the molds are still being used and somebody is building them!  I also agree that the Lindberg 'La Flore' is really quite a nice kit for its size and era, and can be made into a variety of different ships without too much trouble.  It can be a French frigate, a British frigate, or a privateer/corvette as well!  The scale is handy too (I think it is close to 1:150?) as it fits well with the Heller 74's and others....The first time I saw and bought this kit in Heidelberg Germany during the mid-80's, it was being marketed as an 'East Indiaman,' but I do not recall if it was a Lindberg kit or not.  As soon as I started to build it I could see it was no 'Indiaman!"  That particular model came to a bad end, as it was before I learned to put a fair amount of ballast inside.  The window was open on a windy day, and when my room-mate opened the door and walked in, the sudden hurricane swept 'La Flore,' AND 'Wappen Von Hamburg' right off the shelf to a messy end on the floor..... Let this be a lesson to all, put some weight inside any sailing ship model if you want to keep it!  

I now have a new Lindberg 'La Flore' as a half-assembled kit awaiting a suitable space for display...........

  • Member since
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, May 24, 2008 5:51 PM

To Searat12,

I agree with you. Please note my final sentence in the posting, "Whether they (Lindberg) got their design right is another matter." I merely provided the history to illustrate that which Lindberg was attempting to model.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:10 AM
Hi Bill!  Yup, you are right in this case.  Actually, it is not that uncommon for the 'potted histories' that come on the instructions for ship kits are often in error (and the ones that come from Japan or Russia can sometimes be hilarious!).  In any case, 'La Flore' by Lindberg is one of the nicest sailing ship models around, even if it was first molded decades ago.......
  • Member since
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, May 25, 2008 6:38 PM

Searat12,

Those "potted histories" can often be frustrating. I'd almost rather that no history be provided at all, except that I like the good laugh!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, May 25, 2008 7:22 PM

I don't often find myself defending manufacturers, but in this particular case I don't think it's fair to be too hard on Lindberg.  Though I don't know whether the names of the scientists and other details are correct, it looks to me like the person who wrote the "history" was just repeating what various eminently qualified people thought was the truth - until M. Boudriot did his study of the Musee de la Marine model, some years after the Lindberg kit was released.

For a really amusing example, take a look at this:   http://www.modelexpo-online.com/cgi-bin/sgin0101.exe?FNM=00&T1=MV46&UID=2008052519545545&UREQA=1&TRAN85=N&GENP= .

For Dr. Franklin to have commissioned such a ship in 1795 would have been quite an achievement, in view of the fact that he'd been dead for five years.  (He did finance several privateers during the American Revolution, but I don't think they looked much like the Mamoli product.)

Or go to this link:  http://www.modelexpo-online.com/cgi-bin/sgsh0101.exe?SKW=COREL,PLANK,ON,BULKHEAD@&FNM=08&UID=2008052520240281 , and click on the picture of the British frigate Unicorn.  If Corel is to be believed, "F.H. Chapman, Britain's foremost naval architect," must have been an even more remarkable physiological specimen than Ben Franklin, in managing to design a frigate twenty-one years prior to being born.

Fredrik Henrik af Chapman (1721-1808) was in fact a Swedish naval architect and shipbuilder who, in 1768, published an extremely important book titled Architectura Navalis Mercatoria.  It contains plans of numerous ships from various nations (Chapman was a superb draftsman), including the British frigate Unicorn.  That ship was launched in 1747, when Chapman was running a shipyard in Gothenburg.  He had nothing to do with her design; he just included a drawing of her (presumably based on her Admiralty draft) in his book.  The Corel kit, if the photo on Model Expo's website can be believed, looks sort of like the drawing in the Chapman book - but there are lots of conspicuous differences. 

Welcome to the weird, wonderful world of the HECEPOBs. 

I remember my days as a hobby shop clerk, when I often (when the boss was out of earshot) told customers:  "The typical plastic sailing ship kit is, historically speaking, a piece of junk.  And the typical wood sailing ship kit is worse - and more expensive."  Nowadays, being older and, I hope, at least slightly wiser, I wouldn't be quite that hard on the plastic manufacturers.  But my opinion of the wood ones (with the very notable exceptions of Model Shipways, Bluejacket, Calder/Jotika, and a few others) hasn't changed much.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, May 25, 2008 8:23 PM

It's also interesting to note that, had Franklin been alive in 1795, he probably would not have fitted out a privateer to send "booty" to help the "colonies" finance their war for independence . . . that war had been over for 12 years at that point!

Viva the plastic manufacturers . . . may we encourage them incessantly until they give us what we want!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: istanbul/Turkey
Posted by kapudan_emir_effendi on Monday, June 2, 2008 8:02 PM
I well agree. Considering the age, price and level of detail, La Flore and Wappen von Hamburg (now sold ridiculously as Captain Kidd) are among the best sailing warships on the market. Especially Wappen von Hamburg has the potential to be built into a plethora of different ships from Dutch navy for example; with little effort. However, La Flore has a detail which annoys me much. Almost all the frigates from her period show a closed bow while Lindberg kit has a beakhead bulkhead, quite anachronistic for even a frigate from 1750's. I don't know how it can be corrected without a major effort.
Don't surrender the ship !
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Thursday, June 5, 2008 10:46 AM

 kapudan_emir_effendi wrote:
I well agree. Considering the age, price and level of detail, La Flore and Wappen von Hamburg (now sold ridiculously as Captain Kidd) are among the best sailing warships on the market. Especially Wappen von Hamburg has the potential to be built into a plethora of different ships from Dutch navy for example; with little effort. However, La Flore has a detail which annoys me much. Almost all the frigates from her period show a closed bow while Lindberg kit has a beakhead bulkhead, quite anachronistic for even a frigate from 1750's. I don't know how it can be corrected without a major effort.

Actually, I have been looking closely at the 8 pounder French frigate designs, and in fact the beakhead bulkhead WAS a feature of some of the later designs, particularly those of A. Groignard.  The last of the 8 pounders in the French navy had the beakhead bulkhead (Groignard designed) and these were launched in 1774 ('Alcmene,' and 'Aimiable').  'Vestale' (another Groignard 8 Lbs frigate subsequently renamed 'Flore' by the British after her capture and the subject of the Lindberg kit) was launched in 1769, and so a beakhead bulkhead is quite proper.  This is not to say that ALL 8 Lbs frigates retained this feature, and in fact many of them had the round/enclosed bow you describe after 1754, but not all of them, and it depended largely on the designer.  You can also see beakhead bulkheads on 12Lbs, and even 18Lbs French frigates built as late as 1796 ('La Virginie' by Sane').  Have a look at Boudriot's splendid work, 'History Of The French Frigate 1650-1850.'

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