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Proper black paint finish for the USS Constitution?

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jpk
  • Member since
    August 2006
Posted by jpk on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 8:23 PM
I used Tamiya rattle can NATO black on mine. I then hit it with Tamiya rattle can clear matte. Looks just fine.
  • Member since
    December 2006
Posted by woodburner on Friday, May 9, 2008 9:55 PM
I agree with the Professor. PollyScale acrylics are excellent and I use them all the time. It helps that I'm a railroad buff, since they are often sold as model railroad colors, but color is color and if you get what you want there it is. I recently used "railroad tie brown" for the clinker bulkheads and elements of the upperworks in my wooden model of an early 17th century Dutch jacht, but then used Tester's acrylic military paint for a dirty cream color for other parts, where the diagonal stripes would go.

Mixing gloss with flat is a very sound idea, and gives a good finish. I hesitate from waxes for issues of adhesion, since most of my stuff is painted in advance of assembly, or in the process. I had good results from oil based artist's paints (burnt umber, etc.) for wood effects, but the surface proved long to dry and easily damaged by handling. I've started to use artist's acrylic versions, such as transparent burnt umber which is proving promising.

The really big advantage of acrylics is the ease of cleanup - water! - and speed of drying time. Only rarely would I use anything else, since the finishes seem to be just as good as any other material.

Jim
  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: Sarasota, FL
Posted by RedCorvette on Friday, May 9, 2008 5:52 PM

I used a 50-50 mix of Testors gloss and flat black on the Constitution I'm currently working on, using my airbrush to apply it:

FSM Charter Subscriber

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, May 9, 2008 2:12 AM

You're right:  plastic cement won't stick to a surface that has wax on it.  The problem didn't come up on my little schooner model, because the exterior of her hull has few things attached to it.  (I honestly don't remember at what point in the process I put the wax on; I probably did scrape a few spots clear of it in order to attach things like eyebolts and chainplates.)  The Constitution has a lot more external fittings.  It would be extremely awkward to apply wax after all of them were in place.  Maybe it would be practical to wax the black first, and scrape off the wax wherever anything has to be glued.  I'm inclined to think, though, that for this particular project wax wouldn't be the best approach.  You might try the idea of mixing flat and gloss paints to get the sheen you like best.  Just be sure to mix plenty of it - in a jar with a good, tight seal on the lid.

Every modeler has his/her favorite paint brand.  Mine, for what it's worth, is PolyScale acrylic.  I switched almost completely to acrylics about thirty years ago.  When they first appeared in the hobby shops I had my doubts about them, but after buying a fair assortment of them and trying them for a while I got hooked.  Among other advantages, I started noticing that, whereas I'd formerly gotten tired of model building after three or four hours, I was suddenly working for five or six straight - and being irritated that I had to stop and go to bed because it was 4:00 a.m.  It eventually dawned on me that, without my knowing it, the smell of good old turpentine and lacquer thinner had been getting to me. 

Nowadays the only solvent-based paints I routinely use are metallics.  The acrylic manufacturers have made big strides in producing golds, silvers, etc., but I have yet to find an acrylic gold that's as metallic-looking as Testor's, Floquil, or Humbrol.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    May 2008
  • From: Park Ridge, IL
Posted by saddle tramp on Thursday, May 8, 2008 7:34 PM

Excuse me for this second note.  I just called the local Woodcraft store and they have the Renaissance Wax.  It sounds like a great thing to use.

 One thought occurred, won't the wax hinder the ability to glue any parts to the black areas which have the wax applied to them?  How would one handle this?  It would seem hard to apply the wax after everything is glued on.

Sorry for this second question.

Bill
  • Member since
    May 2008
  • From: Park Ridge, IL
Posted by saddle tramp on Thursday, May 8, 2008 7:20 PM

Thanks to all.  This is a good start for me.  Like many people it seems I have colllected a number of kits and now have the time to proceed with building.

 Do most of you use enamels or acrylics?

 It appears researching the ship as well as determining modeling methods is more interesting and important than the actual building.

 

Bill
  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Thursday, May 8, 2008 5:39 PM
i did a mix on flat and gloss on an HMS Victory that I did a couple of months ago. it turned out pretty well in my opinion.
"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: The Bluegrass State
Posted by EasyMike on Thursday, May 8, 2008 2:56 PM

Mix your own.  Combine flat and gloss until you get the semi-flat you're after.

Smile [:)]

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Netherlands
Posted by Grem56 on Thursday, May 8, 2008 2:28 PM

Citadel "Chaos Black" gives a nice gloss sheen when it dries. Do a search for my photos of my Constitution here at the ships forum. They will give you an idea of how it looks.

Cheers,

julian

 

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  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Thursday, May 8, 2008 12:15 PM
Good stuff!  I'll have to try that Renaissance Wax sometime, as it sounds like it would give just the right sort of finish to several ships that I have in build........
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, May 8, 2008 11:48 AM

First - Welcome to the Forum!  I think you'll find it a fun, informative place.  The inhabitants tend to be rather strange people, but most of us seem to be relatively harmless. 

Decisions like this really boil down to personal taste.  The paint applied to the ship in the nineteenth century probably had a considerable sheen - which presumably was affected a great deal by weather and water.  It's safe to assume that after the ship had been at sea for a while the paint looked quite a bit different than it did when it was fresh.  So there's plenty of room for a variety of approaches.

Modelers agree pretty generally that there's a "scale effect" to gloss - among other characteristics of paint.  If you use the same paint on a small-scale model that was used on the real ship (or airplane, or tank, or whatever), it just won't look "right."  Many experienced ship modelers simply use flat paints, regardless of the gloss (or lack thereof) on the original.  Others think it's appropriate to differentiate between parts of the ship that actually were shiny and parts that weren't.  I've seen outstanding models done both ways.  One generalization I think is pretty valid:  the smaller the scale of the model, the greater the danger that glossy, or relatively glossy, paintwork will look phony.

"Full-size" paint manufacturers (i.e., firms like Glidden and Sherwin-Williams) have quite a list of terms for differentiating between degrees of gloss:  "flat," "matte," "satin," "semi-gloss," "eggshell," etc., etc.  Just how much difference there is between them varies somewhat between manufacturers.  In the hobby paint world, though, I don't think there's any consistent difference between "matte" and "flat," or betwen "satin" and "semi-gloss."  (Somebody told me once, quite emphatically, that "matte" is shinier than "flat," but I have the strong impression that British modelers use "matte" to describe what American modelers call "flat.")  It's actually easy to get whatever degree of semi-gloss (or satin) black you want:  buy a bottle of gloss black and a bottle of flat black, and mix them together till you like the result.  (Mix plenty, and keep it in a sealed jar, so you'll be able to touch up things on the model later.)  You can also change the degree of gloss after the paint is on, by applying a clear finish of your choice.

For what it's worth, here are some photos of a black-hulled model I built a few years ago:   http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/JohnTilleyPhantom/index.html .  It's the New York pilot schooner Phantom, from the resin-hull kit that Model Shipways used to sell. The photos probably don't show the black paint really well, but maybe you can get some impression of the degree of shine on it.  I started out by painting the hull with PollyScale flat black ("Steam Power Black," to be specific), with a tiny bit of blue mixed in.  (I'm among those who think pure black and pure white don't look right on a small-scale model.  I am not among those who think there's a consistent formula for determining the "scale effect" on color.)  By the time I was almost done with the model I'd decided that I didn't like the dead flat finish.  So (since the paint was really dry by then - don't try this on paint that hasn't had several weeks to dry) I gave it a thin coat of Renaissance wax, applied with a soft cloth and buffed gently.  Renaissance wax (http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=3235) is a British product that's been used by museums for at least thirty years; it isn't cheap, but a jar will last a model builder a lifetime - and it gives a beautiful, soft gloss that, to my eye, looks just about right in applications like this.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    May 2008
  • From: Park Ridge, IL
Proper black paint finish for the USS Constitution?
Posted by saddle tramp on Thursday, May 8, 2008 11:03 AM

Went to the LHS to get a satin finish black for the exterior of the Constitution.  They had semi-gloss and matt.  The experienced folks at the store suggested flat saying it is hard to scale a finish to the size of a model and, anyway, flat looks better.   

That does not completely make sense to me unless I am missing some nuance as a neophyte.  Knowing the model will can only be so correct it would still be nice to be correct on a number of these little things.

 Tried to buy the photo-etched set from Blue Jacket but they would not accomodate.

 Thoughts and suggestions please??

Bill
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