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One Outstanding minature sailing ship diorama, you got to see.

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  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:31 PM

'nuff said.....

'nuff said, aye. 

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:18 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

Okay . . . I am very impressed! Where can I get these models?\

Bill Morrison

To order any of the Dutch and other ships in the photos above (and many others!)  go to:

http://www.rodlangton.com/

 

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:16 PM
Yes, we know all that.  But what we were referring to is the original diorama mentioned at the beginning of the thread, which clearly shows a Napoleonic squadron sailing dead downwind with all yards square, all sails full, and the flags at the mastheads pointing aft, which doesn't happen under any circumstances that I am aware of.
  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:12 PM

Hardly.  Sailing ships (unlike powered vessels) cannot sail faster than the wind (usually a llot slower!).

On a run, or a broad reach, absolutely! Fore and Aft rigged, close hauled?.....if the sails are designed,cut,and sewn right, and hull drag is minimum.........??

 On the wind, sailing vessels use the apparent wind, which is the vector sum of the true wind, and the wind that is created by the forward motion of the ship. This combined wind, and the shape of the sails (airfoil) create "lift" which pulls the hull through the water. Where hull drag is minimil, and there is little or no leeway, as in an iceboat, the "ship" can sail faster than the true wind. The problem here, is that as the ship moves faster, the apparent wind "heads" the sails, and the ship must fall off, reducing the force of the apparent wind, and moving it more abeam than ahead...you can't get something for nothing, and I'm not going to get into the debate over using the headsalis for their own power, or for directing wind across the mainsail, to develop more power there. In practical application, it is hullspeed, the theoretical limit to how fast the size,and shape of the hull, can be moved through the water, that determines maximum speed. There is, if you will, a "sweetspot"( combined shape of entry, run, wetted surface,etc. ) were the lines of the hull are the fastest. the degree of heel where this sweetspot exists can be different on opposite sides, so the fastest degree of heel to port, is not necessarily the fastest degree of heel to starboard. The mark of a great helmsman, is being able to feel when the sweetspot is reached, know how to adjust the sheets so the the center of effort of the sails, and the point of fastest hull speed (fore and aft) are matched, and keep her there.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, June 16, 2008 5:16 PM

Okay . . . I am very impressed! Where can I get these models?\

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Monday, June 16, 2008 1:51 PM
'nuff said.....
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Monday, June 16, 2008 10:13 AM

I can see where this is going...but! What if the ships are not heading directly downwind? Like on a broad reach? If the ships are heading directly downwind, and are travelling at the same speed as the wind (not likely, I know, for this type of vessel) then the flags would be hanging limp.

  I finally clicked the webpage that this thread is referring to and now see what everyone is going on about. OOPS! Prior to this I thought you guys were talking about the Dutch ships. Please pardon me. They are not just flying the wrong way, but are streaming as well. I will just scuttle my way out of here.     sorry, sorry everyone.....

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Monday, June 16, 2008 8:47 AM
Hardly.  Sailing ships (unlike powered vessels) cannot sail faster than the wind (usually a llot slower!).  Thus, if the wind is from astern, and the sails are set 'square' to catch the wind, the flags on the topmasts should be pointing ahead, just like a weathervane.  As well, it is usual to furl the main course so that it does not interfere with the forecourse by 'stealing' its wind.  The spanker sail aft should also be either furled, or have the boom swung well forward to also catch the wind, thus preventing a possible jibe (where the ship slews uncontrollably into the wind).  The spanker and/or other 'fore and aft' sails are ordinarily set whenever the ship is sailing at a heading at least a quarter point off the wind to close-hauled (on the wind).  Please view the models of the Dutch vessels above to get a proper idea of what the flags should look like with the wind astern.
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Monday, June 16, 2008 6:03 AM
It seems to me that the flag positions are fairly accurate. Taking the true wind direction and figuring the ship's course and speed in relation to it into the equation, you get apparent wind. This is what the flags indicate after it is all said and done.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Sunday, June 15, 2008 1:32 PM

Maybe its 'wind-shear!'
 

LOL! yeah, that's the ticket, "wind shear". But this does raise the question....in a run, would the spanker be set?  If so, shoudn't the spanker sheet be started just a bit more ???

Not that I'm poking any jibes here.....

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Saturday, June 14, 2008 2:22 PM
Maybe its 'wind-shear!'
  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Saturday, June 14, 2008 1:39 PM
That's a very nice diorama! However, are the flags flying in a plausible direction ...?
  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Saturday, June 14, 2008 12:49 PM
Good Lord, and I thought the 1/700 cargo ships I build were small and intricate ...
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Saturday, June 14, 2008 9:58 AM

If you like the GHQ Napoleonics, you might also be interested in the 1/1200 models available from Rod Langton:  http://www.rodlangton.com/anglodutch/pcitures.htm

Not only Napoleonics, but ships of the Anglo-Dutch wars as well (my favorites!).  Not only are the castings really crisp (amazingly so on some of these highly decorated 17th century ships), but the most recent upgrade has been to phase out the casted sail moldings and replace them with PE sails, and now, PE ratlines as well, with the blocks and the whole nine yards!! I have a bunch of these in various stages of construction, but unfortunately my eyes are not as good as they used to be (remember, these are in 1/1200 scale, and are about an inch and half long!).....

anglodutch.jpg (52475 bytes)

7Provincien.jpg (88428 bytes)

Rod also produces a line of Napoleonic ships in 1/300 scale waterline, which can be seen at http://www.rodlangton.com/napoleonic/frame.htm

They are expensive, but beautiful for those interested in dioramas... Here is the frigate Juno

juno3.jpg (227959 bytes)

juno1.jpg (248493 bytes)

HMS Victory

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
One Outstanding minature sailing ship diorama, you got to see.
Posted by Big Jake on Saturday, June 14, 2008 8:09 AM

Just when I "think" I know what I'm doing, someone comes along and slaps me back to reality.

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/misc/sail/sail-1200-kk/kk-index.html

 

 

 

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